If running a parser makes you cynical and depressed, why do it?

I see a lot of people complain about tank DPS or other people's DPS, why look at others numbers? or even your own if you think SAM or Ninja or BRD or DNC or RDM are now ruined? I really fail to see how people are enjoying the game when they complain about how numbers are so low or that their numbers aren't high enough compared to other people. So really if looking that closely at numbers is hurting your enjoyment of the game, why do it? Does your numbers have to be X amount higher than someone else's for you to be having fun? I can understand running one for self improvement but it seems like this obsession over numbers is just ruining the game for people by causing them to be bitter and cynical.

As a healer main who has nothing else to do, the only thing I can enjoy is seeing that my numbers are decently high.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

As a healer main who has nothing else to do, the only thing I can enjoy is seeing that my numbers are decently high.

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That's fine then, if doing that isn't making you cynical or depressed then you aren't who this thread is addressing =)

Some people like to look at numbers to see what they can be doing better, or to simply enjoy seeing how high they go, even if it is to their own detriment at times. Whatever floats their boat. I learned a long time ago during my raiding days in WoW that running a parser just made me do worse and that I was better off learning my class inside and out. So that is exactly what I did. Ever since I haven't had many, if any complaints at all as a hunter main. If I'm playing my class right, and I know that I am, then I don't need extra validation. I still stick to that mentality to this day while playing other games.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

As a healer main who has nothing else to do, the only thing I can enjoy is seeing that my numbers are decently high.

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Being consistently top damage as a WHM during trash pulls makes me smile and frown at the same time.

Some people wanna know the truth even if they know the truth will hurt. It's not all too different from reality.

You're packing a lot of things into this, so to adress them one by one. I do want to preface this however by saying that while there is nothing wrong with enjoying the game "blindly" and in a very relaxed sort of way (I think of it as how my mom travels: "Oh, we dont need to worry about catching our train, if we dont, we'll just take the next one!") some people also enjoy the level of performance you can achieve in this game and theres nothing wrong with that either.
To adress your points seperatly now, though:

1) Tank DPS: As a tank main I personally never cared to much about it, but I can see why other people do: They're setting themself to a high(er) standard and their reward for that, aka seeing their effort being reflected in a better dps-output. Now I dont know the exact numbers that I read somewhere recently but apparently Tank-dps got stealth-nerfed with Shadowbringers, which means that people who are putting the same amount of effort in as before are now getting less of a reward. I can see why that would piss people off - but at the same time those people still want to know if they're doing at least aswell as the game currently allows them to, so they keep looking at numbers.

2) Other peoples dps: This is super simple, actually. At least to me it is - because to me its super annoying and feels almost disrespectful when I go into a duty, try my best, push my dps as much as I can and try to achieve perfection only to have all my efforts destroyed by this little dreamer whos only using half their toolkit in a level 80 dungeon and is therefor dealing less damage than the tank. Its just frustrating to know that this 25minute run could have been 15 had that guy at least tried a little bit - of course dungeons arent a race and I get that some people just want to enjoy them at a slower pace, but this is this "reward"-situation again.
And why look at numbers here? Mainly to ensure yourself that its actually not you whos holding back the group.

3) DPS jobs who arent dealing enough damage: Specially those jobs need to look at their number to make sure they're making the most of what little they have.
In regards to thinking that certain jobs are "ruined": To discover jobs being unbalanced its actually important to look at numbers, the devs do so aswell. If a job cant perform well enough in a raid-setting (not enough damage output and/or utilty) you wont find a group when playing this job - so yeah... that job is "ruined" but with reason and it can be fixed.

You also need to keep in mind that complaining about something doesnt mean you dont enjoy it - infact it might show that you're really passionate about the game. People who complain care about something. People who are upset about changes to their favorite job care about that job - your approach seems to be more on the lines of "so what" and from my perspective thats a terrible stance to take. Because it shouldnt be "so what" if someone cant play their favorite job anymore because groups dont want to take that job with them or because they themself dont feel useful enough to a group.
The same goes for being upset about other peoples DPS: Its because people care about performance - both theirs and their teammates - instead of just being indifferent to it.

And at the end of the day, wether or not you look at the numbers or not: They matter. A boss doesnt just drop dead after being hit a random amount of times or after 10 minutes have ellapsed.

I dont think its seeing numbers thats turning people bitter and cynical - I think its seeing their efforts invalidated by the game itself (job balance) or others (poor performance) thats draining the fun out of the game - and honestly: You dont need a parser for that. I dont need a parser to be annoyed that this RDM didnt cast a single AoE-spell during this expert-roulette and didnt had proper gear on (because I can see both just fine without one). And I dont need a parser to be upset with myself for missing out on some Confiteors (because I know I missed out on them and even why).

I don't know if ignorance is really a better approach. Stuff dying 1.5x to 2x slower is something you're gonna notice regardless of parser, the parser just tells you why it's happening, it won't change the annoyance that some people just aren't putting in any effort and expecting other people to put effort for them.

In a dungeon if DPS aren't using AoEs it means big pulls will be much harder to heal once both tank and healer run out of cooldowns, and you don't need a parser to experience that.

I'm more curious why are you trying to apologize in behalf of those people who play selfishly.

I like having goals, especially as someone who is still very unused to higher tier raiding. It's nice to see where I am, which isn't too great right now, and then read into what I'm doing that's so different from the top players once you take out gear differences and the like. Other people's DPS doesn't matter to me and never has unless they're sitting there auto-attacking or are a zero-DPS healer in content that isn't hard enough to justify it. Neither of which require me to use a parser to see.

I've been avoiding picking up a parser ever since I came back to FFXIV specifically for this reason--after 11 years of WoW I ended up resenting DPS meters more than anything. I've found that I'm much happier judging myself by my own performance (did I handle mechanics well, did I do my rotation properly) rather than strictly by numbers. And I'm much, much happier not being able to see anyone else's DPS numbers--that's information I strictly do not need to care about.

I don't fault other people for using them if they want to, especially savage/ultimate groups where maximizing DPS output really matters. But I hope this game never reaches the point WoW did where it felt like DPS meters were required because everyone was judging you by your DPS.

I don't need a parser to be cynical and depressed.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

I see a lot of people complain about tank DPS or other people's DPS, why look at others numbers? or even your own if you think SAM or Ninja or BRD or DNC or RDM are now ruined? I really fail to see how people are enjoying the game when they complain about how numbers are so low or that their numbers aren't high enough compared to other people. So really if looking that closely at numbers is hurting your enjoyment of the game, why do it? Does your numbers have to be X amount higher than someone else's for you to be having fun? I can understand running one for self improvement but it seems like this obsession over numbers is just ruining the game for people by causing them to be bitter and cynical.

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A lot of people use parsers to judge their own self-improvement. I believe that this has been stated repeatedly in the past in the multitude of parser threads that appear on this forum. There’s nothing in this game that tells us how well or how poorly we are doing—unless we want to actually add up all those numbers in the Battle Log. And, let’s face it: no one wants to do that. So they run a program that automates the process.

In high-end settings, parsers can be used to determine where weak links may be, be it in healing or damage dealing. Coupled with FFLogs and XIV Analysis, further analysis can be done to see why things may not be as smooth as some think. FFLogs and XIV Analysis have to have a parser in order to provide a player with the rotational information they seek, so parsers, by extension of these applications, help players figure out where they may be making errors in their rotation/gameplay.

At an even higher end, parsers, repeated testing, and simulations are used to determine optimal rotations for every job. Those that take all of the time and effort required to acquire these numbers then publish them and rotations for the rest of the playerbase to follow.


Some people would like to see improvement, but, for whatever reason, may not be seeing it in their logs. There can be a myriad of reasons for this (e.g., lingering rotational issues, poor kill time, poor optimization with static/party members, job balance issues, etc.), but it can be disheartening to not see the improvement that you might be wishing for. And sometimes this isn’t the fault of the player. I main DNC—the lowest job in terms of aDPS—and it is a bit depressing to see myself, in a good run, rolling 11~12k while the BLM is pushing 17k. And let me tell you how awful it is to see DNC numbers synced down in UCoB, where I trade places with the WAR because DNC doesn’t have access to Flourish or Saber Dance at level 70, and those are two huge chucks of our personal damage.

But this discrepancy between myself and a BLM isn’t really a reflection of poor skill or play—it’s the sheer gap between my job and jobs at the higher end of the DPS food chain. And this can be said for any of the physical ranged right now, but for DNC especially, since parsers do not show rDPS and we get a big chuck of contribution through that. I notice higher numbers on BRD because BRD is mostly aDPS now—barely any rDPS. And it feels ridiculous sometimes, and I wish that parsers showed rDPS as well. Anyways, how else am I to continue to judge how I’m doing if I decided to close the program? Then I’d be completely in the dark, and I’m not sure being ignorant of my performance is any better than the 11~12k.

What makes me cynical isn’t necessarily the numbers I see. It’s the knowledge that the physical ranged are so imbalanced and undertuned compared to the rest of the DPS jobs that makes me bitter and cynical. And the lack of acknowledgement of that from the development team doesn’t help. We’ll see what 5.1 brings, but I’m not holding my breath for something substantial. For what it’s worth, seeing what they did to BRD and AST in ShB makes me just as cynical and depressed as knowing that my preferred role is basically limping its way through high-end settings.

When we parse a fight we can upload it to an analyzer that suggest how you can improve. For those of us who wish to improve this is a wonderful tool. I do find it depressing to be on war and often either the highest or the second highest in 4 man content. It makes me sad when partner tank is better geared and a pld or gnb and doing less damage than me. I turn it off more often now but man when I forget its bleak. But its worth it when you are learning a class, frankly.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I don't need a parser to be cynical and depressed.

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Exactly. We have lalas for that.

To see who owes me Gil for the juicy carries im giving out. :v

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Originally Posted by Vidu

You also need to keep in mind that complaining about something doesnt mean you dont enjoy it - infact it might show that you're really passionate about the game. People who complain care about something. People who are upset about changes to their favorite job care about that job - your approach seems to be more on the lines of "so what" and from my perspective thats a terrible stance to take. Because it shouldnt be "so what" if someone cant play their favorite job anymore because groups dont want to take that job with them or because they themself dont feel useful enough to a group.
The same goes for being upset about other peoples DPS: Its because people care about performance - both theirs and their teammates - instead of just being indifferent to it.

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I want to emphasize a lot on this. People don't get angry about stuff they don't care about. If you wouldn't care, you would shrug it off and move on, but we do care.
We care about our own performance.
We care about job balancing and synergy.
We care about other players performance and improvment and therefore give advice or point out the uncomfortable truth of someone underperforming.

This game does an awful job in giving feedback on your performance while still having DPS checks in any type of harder content. Just kinda makes no sense imo.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I don't need a parser to be cynical and depressed.

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Yep, they gave us idle battle poses for that. All you need is seeing that White Mage idle pose for 90% of the fight and you are good and set on the cynical depression.

I never complain per se based on parse numbers but if I see room for improvement I would mention to the person, without mentioning a parser or any number.
If a DPS has a very low DPS, it is either because he/she is not geared, his/her rotation is wrong or he/she just does not understand the fundamentals of the job.
And as a mentor, I think it is not wrong to let them know how to optimize a bit, as long as it is done in a polite manner. Parse just gives validation to you providing feedback (based on data).
Helping them improve is good for them in the long run and good for everybody they will be playing with.

I also like using parse when there is a dancer. I have no shame asking them to pair with the tank or myself if I see the other dps lower than us. It helps the whole team in the end.

The problem comes when your group keeps wiping over and over again because they want to have high numbers. They even wipe on purpose if they're not happy with the parser numbers, and destroy the entire run because of it.

I don't like to waste other people's time so I prioritize the clear before parser. If I have to use cover or Clemency to save a kill, I will do it even if I lose damage.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

I see a lot of people complain about tank DPS or other people's DPS, why look at others numbers? or even your own if you think SAM or Ninja or BRD or DNC or RDM are now ruined? I really fail to see how people are enjoying the game when they complain about how numbers are so low or that their numbers aren't high enough compared to other people. So really if looking that closely at numbers is hurting your enjoyment of the game, why do it? Does your numbers have to be X amount higher than someone else's for you to be having fun? I can understand running one for self improvement but it seems like this obsession over numbers is just ruining the game for people by causing them to be bitter and cynical.

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I agree with you 100%. I used ACT and spent the vast majority of my time comparing myself to other people and being generally very bitter. I stopped using ACT and my enjoyment of the game has greatly increased. People like to hide behind its just for self improvement. I am sure there are a select few that use it for this purpose. The vast majority use it for an ego boost. ACT should have been banned from the get go as it was part of the ToS anyway.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

I agree with you 100%. I used ACT and spent the vast majority of my time comparing myself to other people and being generally very bitter. I stopped using ACT and my enjoyment of the game has greatly increased. People like to hide behind its just for self improvement. I am sure there are a select few that use it for this purpose. The vast majority use it for an ego boost. ACT should have been banned from the get go as it was part of the ToS anyway.

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Is ego boosting inherently a bad thing?

It’s not nice, but it’s being scientific and reasonable. Most players playing this game are reasonable. Even understanding. But the fact is numbers do have their uses and it’s good to stay informed.

Parses might have an emotional impact and all but mostly it’s manageable and for lesser content there’s always the option to turn it off and enjoy the more qualitative things.

TL;DR Its not nice but it’s more convenient and efficient to have it than not.

If running a parse makes you cynical and depressed, you probably shouldn't run one, but that choice is on the individual.

I don't run a parse because they typically stresses me out and make me enjoy the game less while using it while playing. I have found that having my numbers be out of sight, out of mind works best for me. Saying that, I'm not totally oblivious to my numbers either, but If I'm looking to improve I generally comb through FFLogs after the fact for tweaks I can make on X fight if it's savage and above content difficulty. Enough people are using a parse and uploading it to FFlogs nowadays that you can do a lot of self improvement without having to have those real time numbers while you are playing.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

The vast majority use it for an ego boost.

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Proof?

I mean, even mentioning you parse is against ToS so who are you going to brag to? I've ran hundreds of EX trials for example, I know they parse because the run appears on fflogs, but I've never once had someone brag over it.
Or do you mean that they simply like to privately feel good about a fight they did well on? How dare they.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

I see a lot of people complain about tank DPS or other people's DPS, why look at others numbers?

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if this is why you run a parse, then you have your answer. but not everyone runs a parser just to look down on others, they run it actually improve their play bc Square wont do it themselves.

people who are bitter/cynical about parses were bitter/cynical people before they opened the parse.

I lived for DPS in WoW and I was great at it; enhance shaman felt like an extension of my body and my numbers in Mists and WoD showed it. But here? I'm having too much fun to care about DPS - this game has enough interesting content that I don't care about watching numbers go up incrementally week over week.

I don't sweat the mistakes because they don't matter: we still clear. I'd rather pride myself on my use of utility than squeezing a few more damage out anyway, it feels more impactful.

The retired raider in me is still curious though; I've looked up my character to see if I was in anyone's parses. Considering I don't eat food, was missing a lot of materia until recently, and am sitting on like 1500 unspent tomes, I expected to be gray, but I was like green/blue and I'm okay with that (especially considering I don't even know what the standard is). Combat and gear optimization isn't a priority for me anymore and it feels great.

All that said, I can definitely still relate to the sense of accomplishment that can come from topping meters, and I don't see anything wrong with players enjoying that as long as they're measuring themselves against the peers in their statics instead of trying to set and enforce their expectations on strangers in roulette.

Logs are a tool for self-improvement, not a standard to measure worth.

Parser doesn’t make me depressed or cynical, people being so lazy they can’t bother to read a single guide and then get offended when they’re called out on subpar performance do. People who get so indignant that instead of trying to improve start blaming parser tools and “raid elitists” do. Turning your eyes away from the problem doesn’t fix the problem.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

I stopped using ACT and my enjoyment of the game has greatly increased. People like to hide behind its just for self improvement.

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"As they say, ignorance is a bliss."

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/p...es/solus_9.jpg

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Originally Posted by dasmause

Parser doesn’t make me depressed or cynical, people being so lazy they can’t bother to read a single guide and then get offended when they’re called out on subpar performance do. People who get so indignant that instead of trying to improve start blaming parser tools and “raid elitists” do. Turning your eyes away from the problem doesn’t fix the problem.

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Does it? Or does it help you realize the problem isn’t as big of a deal as you thought it was when you aren’t putting it under a magnifying glass?

To clarify I'm not taking about savage or extremes but people who put under's a microscope in daily casual content like roulette.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Does it? Or does it help you realize the problem isn’t as big of a deal as you thought it was when you aren’t putting it under a magnifying glass?

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Yes it does, and I don’t want to entertain the idea that it’s somehow my fault that I’m seeing bad performance. Me not looking doesn’t make lazy people good. The game is not that complex, it doesn’t take a lot of effort to understand you do more damage by AOE skills than single target, for example. You can learn the optimal opener and rotation in a mere hour of hitting a training dummy

So that i know who to praise and who to not, nothing worse seeing someone praising a grey parse... and the grey parse think he is actually godly enough to provoke and look down on the others only to be mocked in 5ch(jp reddit)... and that grey parse is someone i knew... and they stop logging in for 3 weeks... ignorance is the worse...

(And i keep wondering who is to blame my friend or the one who keep praising him or me who know he is grey but never say anyhting ...

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Originally Posted by dasmause

Yes it does, and I don’t want to entertain the idea that it’s somehow my fault that I’m seeing bad performance. Me not looking doesn’t make lazy people good. The game is not that complex, it doesn’t take a lot of effort to understand you do more damage by AOE skills than single target, for example. You can learn the optimal opener and rotation in a mere hour of hitting a training dummy

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To be fair through you don’t need a parser to tell if someone is aoeing or not.

I don't think there needs to be said anything about Extremes/ Savage, because that's obviously the type of content where a more critical look at your own and your team mates' performance becomes mandatory and ACT (plus fflogs/ xivanalysis) is the only way to really to that. People can feel like they're doing good all day, the analysis often tells a completely different story.
Sure, it's not pleasent to have various tools tell you "you sucked" after you thought you did well, but at least I know what I need to work on and where my mistakes are. Because I don't remember every little thing I did over a 10min+ fight.

If I have a parser running for non-endgame content, it's usually either to get a better overview over how the others play and know who gets my cards, dance partner and priority when raising and adjust my gameplay accordingly or simply to see how I'm doing on a newly leveled job in casual practice. It also helps me handing out comms to someone who definitely deserves it. Bonus points for people who use things like Shield Samba or Second Wind regulary to support the team.
And after running the three experts for who knows how many times, it's fun for me to try and expeririment here and there to see if I can squeeze out a bit more dps by adjusting some things. Optimization in content where nobody cares about is just for the sake of being less bored after running something for the umpteenth time, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Proof?

I mean, even mentioning you parse is against ToS so who are you going to brag to? I've ran hundreds of EX trials for example, I know they parse because the run appears on fflogs, but I've never once had someone brag over it.
Or do you mean that they simply like to privately feel good about a fight they did well on? How dare they.

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I don't have or need to prove anything to you. You stay on your ACT band wagon. That is a good way to be popular on the forums. What a rebel.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

To be fair through you don’t need a parser to tell if someone is aoeing or not.

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See, thats why I believe your general assumption in this thread is wrong: Its not the parser thats making people "cynical and depressed". All the parser does is display something you can already see or suspect into cold, hard numbers.
I'm always doing my expert roulette together with my boyfriend - me as paladin, he as BLM (we both know our jobs, are fairly good at them and always try to give it out best shot). I dont need a parser to be upset about the other dps or a non-dps-healer after a 25 minute run. And I also dont need a parser to know that our PLD-BLM-combo will ensure faster runs - instead of me playing my favorite dps, bard, and having him come as DRK once in a while.
Both of those things might "upset" me without even needing a parser to see them.

I wont deny that theres the odd person who will beat themself up over a bad run or someone who'll drop a job alltogether (even though they were enjoying it) after being frustrated by the numbers they're seeing. But in general I dont believe that parsers are causing this problem, they're just clearly showing how bad the actual issue that people are frustrated about is. Posts that include hints that someone might have been using a parser and saw "that samurai only pull 5k dps" often mention the parser and the numbers as some sort of "proof" how bad said samurai really was - the reason someone is upset is "the samurai was bad", the reason they know that includes things like observing the playstyle, how fast bosses died etc. and the parser and the numbers are just a confirmation in the end. Hard evidence, if you like.
Something similar can be applied to job-balance: You can already observe that using certain jobs will influence the speed of a run. A parser makes that easier and puts actual numbers on it, but even without it you'll notice that a run with a paladin, WHM and two BLMs will be faster than a warrior, scholar, maschinist and bard (...I'm actually not 100% certain about tank balance here, but I hope my point is still clear).

Personally I rarely consider using a parser - and I still get frustrated by the things you mention, because I see them regardless of being able to put a number on them.
And I'm getting frustrated by those things because, as I mentioned before, I care.
And its frustrating to run a dungeon - yes, even a simple dungeon like expert - with someone who does not care. About their performance, their teammates, the run.
And its frustrating to know that me playing bard instead of paladin will do more harm than good.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

I don't have or need to prove anything to you. You stay on your ACT band wagon. That is a good way to be popular on the forums. What a rebel.

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Well enjoy Hitchens' Razor then.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

I don't have or need to prove anything to you. You stay on your ACT band wagon. That is a good way to be popular on the forums. What a rebel.

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How can you be a rebel and follow the bandwagon?

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Originally Posted by Reap00

I don't have or need to prove anything to you. You stay on your ACT band wagon. That is a good way to be popular on the forums. What a rebel.

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Honestly sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder.

I think you can kind of see the answer from some replies on this thread. Some people get their knickers in a twist if someone else, even in basic MSQ content, is not playing the way they think and want them to. Since they go in with expectations toward other people, they get upset by the data provided by the parser. Those who are using it for self improvement don't get upset, because they are going in with a mindset of using the data to enrich themselves in some manner.

For people who get depressed by the numbers X or Y class does, they sound like they aren't playing the class for the right reasons. If you love the class, don't let someone else's opinion or expectations make you hate it.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I think you can kind of see the answer from some replies on this thread.

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It looks to me you saw that answer before you came to the thread...