Your thoughts on promoting different modes and team sizes

Some people are upset or confused that 24 player Frontlines is being removed with only the 72 player version of Frontlines remaining. A few (hello!) still miss the 8 player teams for the Feast. And then, you know, Rival Wings technically still exists :p

Whichever mode or team size you prefer, it's the number of people queuing that make it succeed or fail. No one wants 30-40+ minute queues for instanced PvP. But drop it to 10 minutes or even better, to 5 or fewer, and it looks much more appealing.

Of course, incentive is key. Sure, sure, fun is the best incentive. Yet what I tend to see in MMOs is that incentives can inspire people to try PvP to see if they like it, or to choose it over another fun activity. So of course suggestions to make PvP more fun matter, but they become irrelevant if too few people even bother trying it.

So...

What do you think of efforts to promote different game modes/team sizes? Should there be (more) unique rewards for each? Or is a rotating schedule of limited time rewards be the way forward? Something else? Examples of your preference(s)?

Have the rewards be unique and everyone will do it no questions asked



Problem solved for creativity with modes and team sizes


Now delet dis

Dont participate in pvp for rewards
I pvp because I enjoy pvp. Dont need a (mom n dad) bribe to participate in it.
Dont enjoy RW because its more button mashing with OP robots then skilled pvp
8 player feast returned though? Um HELL YA

People are upset in removing 24 FL because it had a sense of (albeit very little) tactics and teamwork required to win.
72 is a boring s show. If anything its the 72s that needed to be removed

They just need to make a more constant spree of rewards like a moogle treasure trove but have it for just PVP.

Wolf Marks are great but really the only thing I actually will buy are glamor prisms and dark matter, and that's because I bought all of the other unique rewards.

They just need to keep adding more items and maybe even do it in a rotation to promote the modes but also have it be tied to wins/ Gives the vets a reason to q into those modes and allows new players to understand how to win in them with good strategy.

Would love some achievement rewards being tied to a Rival Wings roulette if they ever make one, that mode absolutely needs the support.

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Originally Posted by UnrealTai

Dont participate in pvp for rewards
I pvp because I enjoy pvp. Dont need a (mom n dad) bribe to participate in it.
Dont enjoy RW because its more button mashing with OP robots then skilled pvp
8 player feast returned though? Um HELL YA

People are upset in removing 24 FL because it had a sense of (albeit very little) tactics and teamwork required to win.
72 is a boring s show. If anything its the 72s that needed to be removed

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I like rewards because it helps get people to try content they might otherwise miss. And even if they have fun, sometimes activities can get stale, so having new people popping in or new things to work toward as an incentive can be helpful. Just my PoV though.

(Good to see someone else misses 8 player Feast teams)

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Originally Posted by Noitems

They just need to make a more constant spree of rewards like a moogle treasure trove but have it for just PVP.

Wolf Marks are great but really the only thing I actually will buy are glamor prisms and dark matter, and that's because I bought all of the other unique rewards.

They just need to keep adding more items and maybe even do it in a rotation to promote the modes but also have it be tied to wins/ Gives the vets a reason to q into those modes and allows new players to understand how to win in them with good strategy.

Would love some achievement rewards being tied to a Rival Wings roulette if they ever make one, that mode absolutely needs the support.

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So basically more things like Garo where you win enough to get the prize? Nice.

As for support, yeah, I look at support and promotion of instanced PvP among some popular MMOs like this:

WoW - good (new themes and seasonal rewards, new maps, popular streamed competitions, etc.)
FFXIV - meh (OK support for Feast, new maps every great once in a while, and... yeah)
ESO - oof (nice combat system but queue system is broken, matching system is not good, no real promotion of any kind)

I think FFXIV could do better but I'm not sure the dev resources and commitment are there. But that's from someone who's still a PvP casual so my impression may not be worth anything.

Because there change frontline is dead to me and never run it after 5.1 again. To me they need to just remove all pvp and just keep feast. Good job Yoshi raising everyone's queue times even more than they was already. I only ran frontlines to cap my tomes each week now just do hunts to cap them.

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Originally Posted by Crit

Have the rewards be unique and everyone will do it no questions asked



Problem solved for creativity with modes and team sizes


Now delet dis

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There needs to be a new currency for wins and wins alone for these rewards.
The fact that there are content creators big in the community that are tweeting out confidently that they will afk off-stream to farm wolf marks because they're a pittance currency that mean nothing is antithetical to pvp and competition.

The thing is you can’t select between 24 and 72 man modes. Removing it will only make wait times increase...

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Originally Posted by Shinklet

There needs to be a new currency for wins and wins alone for these rewards.

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No, they just need to adjust the rewards structure for PvP in general. Change winning to a modifier, and make the reward based on a tally of your Kills/Deaths/Assists/Damage/Objectives/etc. So if you do nothing all match and just get carried to victory... A 1.5x modifier on zero is still zero, meanwhile a 1x modifier for losing but with 20 kills is still worthwhile... A reward structure like that would actually encourage participation and improvement; The better you get at PvP the more rewards you get, someone with 2 kills a match wont get the same reward as someone with 20. There is reason to play and improve with such a system, rather than the current "lose faster so we get rewards faster" attitude.

I'd also like to see a top 3 system attached to the various statistics at the end of battle, so top 3 kills, assists, damage dealt, healing done, damage taken, etc. (think something like Overwatches Gold/Silver/Bronze medals at the end of matches). Solely for the purpose of achievements, though it can also be a modifier for the basic EXP/Wolf Marks/etc rewards. Win x Frontlines matches is not a good system for achievements, you can have a 100% win rate or a 1% win rate, you'll still get that achievement in the end. Having achievements that actually encourage aiming for the highest kills/etc per match would, again, encourage people to improve. They're also far harder to obtain, giving the achievements a longer lifespan. Having something like that for Garo would have been interesting, rather than a bunch of 0 IQ leeches you'd have people coming in and either putting effort in to carry themselves or giving up when it's clear they'll get nowhere with a PvE snowflake attitude, a win-win IMO.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

No, they just need to adjust the rewards structure for PvP in general. Change winning to a modifier, and make the reward based on a tally of your Kills/Deaths/Assists/Damage/Objectives/etc. So if you do nothing all match and just get carried to victory... A 1.5x modifier on zero is still zero, meanwhile a 1x modifier for losing but with 20 kills is still worthwhile... A reward structure like that would actually encourage participation and improvement; The better you get at PvP the more rewards you get, someone with 2 kills a match wont get the same reward as someone with 20. There is reason to play and improve with such a system, rather than the current "lose faster so we get rewards faster" attitude.

I'd also like to see a top 3 system (which Chocobo Racing, of all things, basically has already) attached to the various statistics at the end of battle, so top 3 kills, assists, damage dealt, healing done, damage taken, etc. Solely for the purpose of achievements. Win x Frontlines matches is not a good system for achievements, you can have a 100% win rate or a 1% win rate, you'll still get that achievement in the end. Having achievements that actually encourage aiming for the highest kills/etc per match would, again, encourage people to improve. They're also far harder to obtain, giving the achievements a longer lifespan. Having something like that for Garo would have been interesting, rather than a bunch of 0 IQ leeches you'd have people coming in and either putting effort in to carry themselves or giving up when it's clear they'll get nowhere with a PvE snowflake attitude, a win-win IMO.

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What I suggest is realistic within the game's pre-existing systems and code.

What you suggested requires more time and to develop a system that would take a lot of work because of the engine that ffxiv uses. The game needs to tally these things, form an algorithm based on average performance and then distribute accordingly and somehow not get abused.

This is why games don't tend to do this and opt for ones that are time based like overwatch, call of duty, pubg, battlefield, league of legends, the list goes on.

Take a healer for example, a healer with lots of damage done would be evaluated as being above average and as a result recieve better rewards but would be costly and ineffective as a team.

If you just make it a zero-sum game where your knowledge and skill will win you more games and get you the currency, this is not only easy to implement, but cheap and cost effective based on the outcomes it gets.

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Originally Posted by Shinklet

This is why games don't tend to do this and opt for ones that are time based like overwatch, call of duty, pubg, battlefield, league of legends, the list goes on.

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Overwatch literally has a Gold/Silver/Bronze medal system at the end of matches which would be a godsend to XIV PvP. Not even a hard system to put into Frontlines; Chocobo Racing already has an emblem for Gold/Silver/Bronze, and the Frontlines results page already lets you rank players contribution.

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Originally Posted by Shinklet

Take a healer for example, a healer with lots of damage done would be evaluated as being above average and as a result recieve better rewards but would be costly and ineffective as a team.

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A correction, I put damage in there when I shouldn't have. Base the tally purely off Kills/Assists/Objectives (Ice/etc.), with Deaths being a point against, although I'm not too sure on that point. For a medal system count damage, but somehow I doubt a healer would rank high enough for that to matter.

The game already tallies these statistics, it's just a matter of applying a value to them instead of overall placement. Various ways that can be done too, I'd rather not forgo a reward at the end, but you could reward players per Kill at the point of a Kill, which is really no different than how PvE works.

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Originally Posted by Shinklet

If you just make it a zero-sum game where your knowledge and skill will win you more games and get you the currency, this is not only easy to implement, but cheap and cost effective based on the outcomes it gets.

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Sure, I just don't find it particularly rewarding. Rewarding the overall result, which you can put absolutely any amount of effort into and still receive, just wont feel as rewarding as rewarding individual effort, IMO. It wont encourage the same level of individual improvement, because it's a team game with increasingly limited control over your team. There's still going to be people who come in and "ruin it" for people, and that's going to discourage people from trying. Why put that effort in when others are going to undermine it, after all? At least if you reward individual participation, you always have incentive to keep trying for you own sake. That hopefully ripples down and improves the overall quality of players. Continue to reward simply getting carried? People will continue to simply do no more than try and get carried. Someone who actually tries will have a higher win rate of course, but so long as you can put effort in that goes unrewarded, or put minimal effort in and get rewarded... The majority of players are going to take the path of least resistance. Rewarding randoms for being on the team with the most premades doesn't change their attitudes at all. Punishing players for putting effort in when they get teammates who just feed doesn't encourage them to keep putting effort in.

If we're talking cost effectiveness though, SE already has their solution; Ignore NA/EU completely. JP has a different culture going on which mitigates a lot of our issues, so our issues don't even exist to begin with. We want something fixed which JP doesn't need fixed. Look no further than "Hello" for proof; NA/EU want a specialized "I'm Ready" quick chat function added, the JPs client "Hello" translates closer to that already which is why it's even used that way to begin with. Since they don't need an "I'm Ready" quickchat, we don't get one, despite it being a frequent suggestion and requiring very little work to actually implement. They could even just change the localization of "Hello" to "I'm Ready", but nope... The localization team would rather throw another Beta Wolf on us. That title being another case of "Well, it's not an issue in JP... So...". Rival Wings need a Roulette to help with pops? What do you mean, it's frequently active on JP, no adjustment required. 24 player Frontlines? Not popular in JP so say goodbye to it, doesn't matter how popular and necessary it is here.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

JP has a different culture going on which mitigates a lot of our issues, so our issues don't even exist to begin with. We want something fixed which JP doesn't need fixed. Look no further than "Hello" for proof; NA/EU want a specialized "I'm Ready" quick chat function added, the JPs client "Hello" translates closer to that already which is why it's even used that way to begin with. Since they don't need an "I'm Ready" quickchat, we don't get one, despite it being a frequent suggestion and requiring very little work to actually implement. They could even just change the localization of "Hello" to "I'm Ready", but nope... The localization team would rather throw another Beta Wolf on us. That title being another case of "Well, it's not an issue in JP... So...". Rival Wings need a Roulette to help with pops? What do you mean, it's frequently active on JP, no adjustment required. 24 player Frontlines? Not popular in JP so say goodbye to it, doesn't matter how popular and necessary it is here.

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PvP is balanced around the Japanese player base? If so, I guess that help makes some sense of many things.

Also as stated that could some beneficial to NA/EU changes would be unlikely.

Curious though why Japanese players don't need help getting Rival Wings together...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

sip .

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Firstly the ranking system isn\\'t the same as a match making system in any of those games. You get placed against and with a tier above and below and you gain more rating that you lose until diamond.

That's literally the match making system, it' s not complex at all and would do zilch for frontlines. It\\'s barely effective even in ranked because of the fact you can climb to play and get into diamond games with a minimum of 32% winrate.

Again, changing what\\'s required doesn\\'t change the fact a new system would need to be made, an algorithm would need to be developed and this would be an undertaking the devs have never done before for a minute detail that can be fixed in other ways.

I can\\'t wait for the lower half of your response to end up on ffxivforums.txt but just so you know for next time, eu+na comprise of roughly half the player base, so dropping them would mean se loses half their income in exchange for saving a few pittances of server cost. Probably not the best trade.

You can keep armchair developing but problems with the game can\\'t just be solved by making a new system to patch up the faults of an old one.

It's funny they do what the japan player base wants and not north america player base which is bigger than the japan player base.

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

Curious though why Japanese players don't need help getting Rival Wings together...

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Originally Posted by hynaku

It's funny they do what the japan player base wants and not north america player base which is bigger than the japan player base.

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The Japanese player base is simply far more active in PvP than NA/EU, if you want to get a quick idea of just how much so, compare the top 100 for Feast for each region. They're far more competitive and active, and as such they don't have the same issues we have. No idea of the actual numbers of course, but I'd say the PvP playerbase in Japan is bigger than NA and certainly bigger than EU, probably even NA/EU combined, just based off Rival Wings (hint: they never needed a specialist discord to get that popping). Throw in a lack of a language barrier, which has always resulted in JP seemingly getting preferential treatment from SE, even as far back as XI, and yeah... That's not to say they completely ignore NA/EU, with PvE they certainly do listen, it just maybe takes a bit longer, but with PvP? I can't think of anything remotely substantial, granted 24 being gutted might be souring my perception somewhat.

But yeah, JP is far more active, so most of our issues don't apply. Queue times? Not an issue. Bad players? A bigger, more active playerbase dilutes them out. Culturally I believe they're also more likely to look down on such behavior, so they've got that going for them too. Over here? Not sure anybody really cares... About bad players, queue times, piss poor latency in PvP instances, PvP actions in general, any of it... One or two posts every now and then, that'll get a tiny bit of traction, but no one really cares... Someone posts low tier bait about emote abuse in Frontlines though? Oh boy hold on to your pants, cos that sh*ts clearly more important than the communities fairly unanimous disdain towards most of the 5.1x changes... Honestly I look at that and I'm not really surprised that SE ignores this section... Were I in their shoes, I'd ban emotes from PvP just to spite the idiots who signal boost a thread like that...

Wonder how long SE would last if everyone in NA and EU quit paying them subs. I don't think there Jp player base could keep them going.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Wonder how long SE would last if everyone in NA and EU quit paying them subs. I don't think there Jp player base could keep them going.

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No idea, but very few people in NA and EU aren't going to quit over PvP

And yay for more expressed interest in 8v8v8 Feast

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...8-to-the-feast.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-PvP-Game-Mode