Okay so it's been awhile since I posted one of these threads...
Last night, I had a "tank" in Castrum Abania who was severely under-geared. The dude was wearing almost full Lv60 Poetics in Castrum Abania (the 260s... not the upgraded 270s) along with a couple Shisui pieces IIRC.
I managed to get through the whole thing with only 1 death that I remember (the tank at the end of the 2nd boss when he ate a tankbuster right after another hit, not much I coulda done there).
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/495880737
At some point in the video, I think right after the 2nd boss, I pull up his equipment sheet and discovered all the poetics gear and I was like "OOOH, no wonder this guy is made out of cardboard..."
I don't claim to be a master SCH or anything, but I sure as heck felt like one when we defeated the last boss with nobody getting killed (well he did cheat with Superbolide at the end, but still). I was sure that Inferno was going to rip him to pieces. Having to dump all of those extra heals on the tank made it difficult to keep everybody else up, but I did it... somehow.
I know I keep forgetting about my fairy cooldowns (really wish SE would go back to making those automatic), but anything else I am doing wrong/not doing?
SCH Checkup
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10-18-2019, 02:26 AMMaekaSCH Checkup
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10-18-2019, 04:28 AMMarc-Vigar
This is just my opinion, no harm intended:
You are right, the tank was getting destroyed in every pull and dealing with people like that is a nightmare. The real problem wasn't tank's gear though, the problem was he didn't know how to use cooldowns properly (off timed CD, no stuns, etc). Honestly that dungeon doesn't help either, the damage taken there is the highest from all dungeons below lvl 70.
That said, you still have a lot to learn about being a healer. You are too slow healing, you don't anticipate tank busters, you don't apply shields between pulls, you don't DPS properly and so on.
It's an accumulation of small things what makes content stressing, not just a undergeared tank. (IMO he's not really undergeared, but it's improvable for sure). -
10-18-2019, 05:38 AMMaeka
Well, to be fair, I was rather distracted by the tank taking so much damage. I did notice that I wasn't watching the bosses' casting bars and such as much, and I was indeed not DPSing as much because of the tank taking too much damage.
I was more just concerned with doing my job and keeping the tank alive than I was doing extra stuff like DPSing, as I didn't feel like I had much of any time to DPS, the tank would drop to below half in the time it would take me to cast one Broil so I decided to.... not cast Broil. Too risky. The few times I did throw in some DPS, I wound up having to fight a harsh catchup battle and I didn't really want to have to rely on praying for Critlos or anything like that.
I did another run right after that one, with a level sync tank and that one went much smoother (I recorded that run too; it's in the latest stream VODs, same channel that video is on).
I suppose I just don't do well when there's too much pressure, like a tank taking too much damage. I'm rather prone to falling apart when crap starts going wrong, forgetting to do things, etc. I know on AST, if people start standing in stupid and I'm scrambling to throw heals I will forget to draw cards, etc. -
10-18-2019, 06:38 AMMarc-Vigar
I think you have a wrong idea there, DPSing isn't "extra stuff", the faster the enemies die, the less you have to heal. For example if you apply shields on the tank between pulls, you can apply DoTs on enemies while running and cast some AoE before actually needing to heal.
You must work on preventing damage rather than reacting to it, specially as SCH. Tanks and DPS not dodging AoEs and not using defensive CD is part of healer's life (unfortunately), the only way to overcome this stressful situations is becoming a better player. -
10-18-2019, 07:18 AMDeathgiver
A few things I noticed, not meant to discourage you but to help you improve as you've asked. This is on top of what Marc-Vigar already mentioned.
1) Stop broiling during trash pulls, use art of war instead and weave your fairy and aetherflow heals in between the instant casts. You never in the 10 minutes i watched came close to running out of mp. This also allows you to stay hard targeted on the tank allowing for quicker response time to emergencies.
2) Actually use your aetherflow, skills, I didn't see a single excog, and you rarely used lustrate. Applying dots during the run puts you into combat and lets you weave your excog before the tank stops.
3) Don't waste resources at the end of pulls. if you're down to one mob you shouldn't be healing at all unless the tank is like 25%. You'll have more for the next pull when there's lot of mobs up if you save that 1 lustrate.
4) Until you get the regen on your sacred soil at level 78, sacred soil is almost worthless for single target damage. A tank would have to take 10x the amount of damage that lustrate restores before it's on par with lustrate (roughly 100k damage over 15 seconds, which you wouldn't be able to heal through anyways without lustrates).
edit for length
more minor things that you should work on
5) You're not a ranged character you're a healer. a good chunk of your skills are point-blank aoe so you should be right in the thick of things all the time. Pretty much every time you had to heal aoe damage you had to move in first.
6) You should be learning skills on first cast. Both healers and tanks live and die on their knowledge of what any particular cast bar does. It's more important to focus on this than on the player hp bars. If you know a tank buster is going out you shouldn't be healing the previous aoe damage, you should be prepping for the tank buster instead.
7) Don't be scared to let your dps or yourself sit below 100%. Only top up the non-tanks if they are in danger of being 1 shot by the next mechanic or mistake. -
10-18-2019, 11:40 AMOsmond
Yeah, it blows your mind cause you at first you think, "it is just me or is this tank HP just melting?". Then your realized that the tank's gear is undergeared. Experienced that on occasion.
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10-18-2019, 04:28 PMNeela
I noticed the „undergeared“ issue is getting trendy... I see more and more player with 260/390 gear approximately who just lvl their cls with dailys -> getting thrown in 75+ dngs by low-roulett with their SB-Endgear... what makes dailys either super long or/and kinda stressful... : /
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10-18-2019, 06:34 PMLariaKirin
What kind of feedback do you want?
If it's how you could've handled this instance better - simply votekick the tank. He's blatantly disrespecting everyone by staying in a lvl 69 dungeon with lvl 60 gear.
If it's how you could've played better - an abnormal instance such as this one is not a good representation of how you play normally.
That said, the most important thing you have to fix is Aetherflow usage.
I believe you view them as "emergency" skills - whereas they are the strongest abilities in your kit and should be preferred over your basic heals.
This causes many issues that are not really worth mentioning because they'll likely fix themselves after a change of mentality.
I'd recommend doing this exercise in your next dungeon:
- Glance at your Aetherflow regularly. (find your own trigger - e.g. whenever you feel that the party is not in danger, take a look at Aetherflow)
- Use Aetherflow as soon as it comes off cooldown, no exceptions.
- If you find yourself with excess stacks when it comes off cooldown, then get rid of them in any way you can (Energy Drain, wasted heals, doesn't matter).
- Use Aetherflow asap.
Disregard any pretense of efficiency at this point - one thing at a time. Just get used to refreshing your aetherflow stacks on cooldown.
Once that becomes automatic, you'll be used to the constant stream of aetherflow stacks and will naturally find efficient uses on your own. -
10-19-2019, 12:43 AMMaeka
@LariaKirin:
This was more the type of feedback I was looking for, yes. I do admit to treating Aetherflow as more of an emergency type thing, especially in that dungeon, but even somewhat other runs I've done too. I always tried to keep one up for throwing the bubble, and the other 2 were for Lustrates when people stand in stupid but I suppose I shouldn't be so paranoid perhaps.
That dungeon in the recording, though? Yeah I was like "this guy could drop dead at any second, I better keep both Lustrates ready to use at a moment's notice or we're all going down" was kinda the thought process behind that.
But I will try and tie an aetherflow glance trigger in somewhere... perhaps... I dunno maybe anytime I'm casting Adlo or something I'll glance at it and when I see it <20 sec, the next two heals are gonna be Lustrates or something.
That is a rather good idea, and I thank you for that. I'll try and do that next time! -
10-19-2019, 08:28 AMDeceptusThe're getting slaughtered because they're literally less than half of the defense value they should at that level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
Your job is to fix mistakes, you can't fix stupid.
Personally I'd have told them to go to a vendor and buy a set of white gear and subsequently kicked them. -
10-19-2019, 08:38 AMCrushnightWas it you Decptus or another poster that worked out that a Drg with up to date hq white gear(lv68) had more defences than a tank in ilv270 gear. So yea OP i wouldn't have put up with someone who was 10 ilvs below that sometimes people deserve das boot obviously after telling them to go get gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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10-19-2019, 05:32 PMSaefinnIdeally people should pick up gear as they go, I get that when people are levelling they don't wanna spend on gear, but there is only a certain amount that you can get away with, but some people can take the mick a little, especially in roles where it makes enough of a difference like tanking or healing. Case in point I was farming Bardam's Mettle to get my healer gear for glimglams from there, first tank, I thought was losing a lot of HP and died pulling wall-to-wall and I was like "I'm pretty sure I'm a better healer than this" and checked the tank's gear and it explained everything, but I didn't get salty with them, they were polite & pleasant enough and I've complained a lot here about not having enough to do when healing, so in that respect they were doing me a favour :P Next run, the tank in that party also pulled wall to wall and it was a walk in the park, because they were geared.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
But if trying to improve your skills, undergeared people or people messing up I think is good practice and good for pushing your ability as a healer, of course, as long as they don't take the "blame the healer" method if things go wrong. But saving parties that want to kill themselves is one area healing can get rewarding as you can be like "yeah, I pulled that from total chaos", there's always room for improvement, but being able to pull off what you hadn't before is a nice sign of progress. But sometimes that positive spin gets surpassed by healer rage...because you just wanna get out with as little hassle as possible and it can be elementary stuff.
With faerie cooldowns, I suppose if you're coming from a background of relying on the AI that it's something to get used to, but they way I've always treated it is that they're just additional healing skills on my crossbar/hotbar. I keep all my healing stuff bunched together and all of my DPS stuff bunched together so I don't lose track of any CD's in what I'm doing rather than thinking of faerie abilities as a separate entity. This was how I also micromanaged my faeries before the changes, I never used the pet bar. In a way, this change just normalised how I handled my pets.
As an example my crossbar looks like this:
https://i.imgur.com/Xsw5PcZ.png -
10-19-2019, 07:48 PMSylvainWhy did you put so many useless spells readily available but Broil and Biolysis aren't on your main bar?Quote:
Originally Posted by Saefinn
I don't know how you heal but I believe you don't press, Emergency Tactic, Adlo and Physik enough to warrant them space on my main action bar vs Broil and Bio (admittedly Adlo could stay tho) -
10-19-2019, 08:34 PMCrushnightIf they are like me, it is just to keep things together, hotbar 1 Heals(still primary role even if we do dps more), hotbar 2 Dps, hotbar 3 pet, now hotbar 3 is gone :( and hotbar 2 was gutted like nothing else over the expansions but i have kept that consistency because i'm used to it, and lastly rude :/ so long as they do their role and dps when able, no need for such comments it doesn't take over 2 secs to switch hotbars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain
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10-19-2019, 10:06 PMSaefinnSimple. Extended crossbars. All of my DPS stuff is on my extended crossbar. It's a set up that works for me because I have a separation of concerns, if I am having to focus more on healing, all the spells that can help are all in one place and I can immediately see what is and what isn't on cooldown, so I can hit that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain
If I am no longer focused on healing and want to spam broil or art of war ad infinitum then I just need to hold down one extra button and that's it now I can spam DPS moves. It's also an approach that made it easy to accomodate SCH's old DPS rotations as I had plenty of space for it, which sadly has since been gutted. And I don't have to get into the mentality of prioritising what I put on my main crossbar. I recommended turning on extended crossbars to anybody who doesn't use them, they feel weird to begin with but IMO they make it a lot smoother to access your second page of skills.
For me at least, it flows well and works with how I think. I realise it don't work for everybody, but then no set up is a one size fits all, because people's brains are wired differently. -
10-20-2019, 01:14 AMMhaeric
Re: gearing as you go.
At a bare minimum, if someone wants to minimize the amount of gil they spend for gear to supplement whatever dungeon gear they manage to get, I recommend getting a full tomestone set at levels ending in zero and buying HQ crafted gear at levels ending in 5. Between the levels ending from 0-5 you won't even need dungeon gear since the tome gear is better than dungeon gear, and from 5-9 the 5 gear supplemented with dungeon drops as obtained is strong enough to get through content well enough even with minimal dungeon drops. The exception I would make to this rule of thumb is buying the HQ weapon for your level from 5-9 if you didn't get the dungeon drop from the previous tier since weapon has a huge impact on performance for any job. -
10-21-2019, 05:51 AMMaekaI know not everybody is going to do it like this, but what I did... and this made it easy as pie to stay geared up, is I would level groups of classes, 2 levels at a time. For example I would have 3 of the tanks (Pld was already 70 when ShB released) and two of the healers (same for WHM) on, say, 63.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
I'd level a healer through Shisui until 65. Then I'd level the other healer through Shisui until 65. Then I'd take 1 tank through Shisui until 65 and keep doing that. I got *plenty* of dungeon drops to equip all of my jobs, Almost. I fell slightly short on Doma Castle because doing Beast Tribe dailies caused me to out-pace the dungeon drops and now all 3 tanks are Lv71 with the exception of GNB which will ding 71 tomorrow and so they're all wearing Scaevan. I plan on doing the same with Don Mheg+.
And thanks to Trusts, and the fact I did the MSQ by taking my RDM through all the story dungeons with Trusts, I already have a decent spattering of gear to start with sitting on a retainer. -
10-21-2019, 06:15 AMSaefinnQuote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
Hey whatever method works for you. I'm generally the impatient sort, I wanna get my first job to level cap before I touch anything else lol, I'll max out the gear from the last level cap and stretch it until a reasonable level and let them MSQ gear me for the rest.
And hey, means you aren't working to gear yourself as it means you naturally get it as you go and the advantage of more glams when you are levelled, because that's the true endgame here. -
10-21-2019, 06:35 AMMaeka
*nods* I did my WHM through Leveling Roulette well before I unlocked anything beyond Holminster Switch; so I never got into a Level 73+ dungeon until way near the end I did get a Don Mheg run once as WHM, but by then I had a hodge-podge of Lv73, 75, and 77 dungeon pieces that I had gotten from taking my RDM through those dungeons.
My RDM? I quested and did the Trust dungeons, easily enough with maybe a Leveling Roulette or two when the quests outpaced my level. -
10-22-2019, 01:57 PMImpurrrsive
Returning character perhaps, ur heal style more like in ARR timeline minus the reactive part,
Love ur excog and lustrate more, don't forget the fairy. In time u'll press less emergency tactics -
10-22-2019, 04:25 PMHysterior
You should hide character names in your video, especially when you cast a bad spotlight on someone. No matter the gear.
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10-28-2019, 01:16 PMAurelius2625
The best thing that I've learned as a Tank is to follow advice from those who know more than I do. Not sure how liked/disliked Momo is, but his video on "How to Scholar in Dungeons" is a godsend. Things like casting an adlo on yourself to deploy on the tank for a free quick shield once the first prepull one is eaten is a really good thing that I've found helps a lot, if you don't need the deploy for something, and let's be honest Dungeon bosses never have lethal AoEs anyway..
Learning two things helped me level from 1 to 78 on Scholar so far:
1: PREEMPT damage by pre shielding, tossing Sacred on the ground as the tank is just about to stop to mitigate the huge hits, excog the tank, esp with Recitation when you get it, BEFORE the tank stops and his almost dead. Things like that, will help you a lot, and using Dissipate between pulls for extra Aetherflow in dungeons, gives you SIX stacks to use, since Aetherflow will mostlikely be up anyway, so you get free stacks, a bigger adlo on the tank from Dissipate's buff before next pull, and by the time you are running low on resources, fairy should be back anyway so you can Fey Union.
2: BUDGET your resources. Don't blow everything on ONE pull and be naked for the next. Budget your mana - Lucid should be used ON COOLDOWN whenever you are 8k in mana if you are always casting something, which you should be.
Emergency tactics Adlo is really good for a burst in healing. Sacred on pulls is really OP if it's a bigger pull, if not, then Lustrate is better. If you have excog, that's better than lustrate, since it's 800 potency for one stack vs the lustrate.
USE FEY ILLUMINATION when you are getting to the point that you need to use GCD heals, it boosts your healing for "Spells" like Adlo and Physick, also, when mobs are shooting magic at the tank, it gives some resistance.
USE FAIRY ABILITIES before dissipate, so they are working for you, and you get your stacks as well as the benefit of what the fairy would have been able to do, sans Embrace. Imho, Dissipate is far more powerful than Embraces, when the tank's hp is being shredded, don't be afraid to use and abuse it.
These are just a few newb insights that may be wrong, but hell, I haven't had a terrible dungeon yet where people are dying left and right. -
10-28-2019, 01:17 PMMaekaI actually just today discovered that Excog exists, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Impurrrsive
When I dinged a level, likely when doing roulettes or something, the game just dumped the button on my bar, and I didn't even realize I had gained it. Then today I went to do another Abania, and I saw this new button sitting on my bar, and I'm like "What's that?" and I mouse over it and I'm like..
.........OOOOOH, derp. I've quickly gotten into the habit of dumping that on the tank and just not having to worry for the first... oh I dunno 10-15 seconds of a fight.
Except A). I don't know how to edit video, and B). I was live-streaming this, so a bunch of people likely saw it anyways, and it stays in my VODs for a month even if I didn't highlight it and stick it up on forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hysterior
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10-30-2019, 01:35 AMMhaericWhile none of that matters outside of the forums, you did post a link to it on the forums which make you vulnerable to a possible ToS violation if someone decides to report your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
As a suggestion for future recordings to give you the flexibility to link in official SE venues and doesn't require any editing at all, you can change the in-game settings to display player names as only initials when you do the recording/streaming. That way you don't have to worry about anything aside from masking the chat window which any decent streaming tool can easily do. People typically put their logo, face or blurred box over top of it.