So, outside of the more glaring stuff like the "Pray Return to the Waking Sands" meme that Minfilia is, SE decided to include a wall only because Titan(Hard Mode) was required in the MSQ. However, this also forces you to unlock Ifrit and Garuda Hard Mode for absolutely no reason. Honestly, as much as I am ok with unlocking a single Hard Mode for story reasons, this absolutely is one of the worst ways to gate people given that the content is dead and just serves to clog up the story for a good while.
You have to kill Ifrit and Garuda Hard Mode first of all things too before even accessing Titan Hard Mode. As for the people saying "Sure, but we can just unsync it" those that do not know how to access the Novice Network or don't have an FC/Friends are going to have a higher chance of quitting the game outside of the Company of Champions quest chain at Lv 30-34 since Coerthas at least gets fun story-wise.
I would rather that you ignore the Hard Modes and have a forced Titan HM unlock at that time in the MSQ where you have to do Titan Hard Mode again in the case you already unlocked it(besides, you're Lv 60 by the time you have to do it at 3.4). It would smooth progression in ARR rather than have this hard brick wall of primal fights you're forced to do to progress after Dreams of Ice since back then you weren't forced to unlock the Hard Modes for Story.
The Problem with ARR Progression
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10-11-2019, 07:20 AMHyperiusUltimaThe Problem with ARR Progression
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10-11-2019, 07:33 AMVidu
Since both of the HMs are in trials roulette and are extremly quick and easy now (I've seen Garuda die in about 2 minutes more often than I wished to, but hey, easy exp/tomes, I guess) I dont really see what the problem with those two duties is? Why would anyone quit the game about having to do two additional HMs, easy ones like Ifrit and Garuda even...
The only thing that isnt optimal is probably the timing within the storytelling, I'll give you that - unless I missremember Titan HM is required in the MSQ for the whole deal with Ga-Bu, right? So I could see why its a bummer to be hold up at that point and having to do two unrelated fights to continue your storyline, but the same could be (and has been) said about ilvls for certain story-duties (and we really dont want to do away with those, please). So I dont see why this would be a huge quitting-the-game-over deal.
It could probably be smoothed a bit, by making Garuda and Ifrit not a requirement for Titan HM or by simply having both quests (the orignal one and the Ga-Bu one) unlock the trial, but it really seems like more of a minor issue to me. But I'll admit I havent tried queueing for either of them directly lately... -
10-11-2019, 07:42 AMHyperiusUltimaI see your point about them being quick and easy, but to be honest I actually just recently went into Ifrit HM on my Alt and BOY. Peeps died to Nails because they thought you could just burn him when you sync down! XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Vidu
But yeah, the main selling point of this argument is that it disrupts the story flow greatly(even if it is an arbitrary nuisance that pops up later) since we're just coming back from knocking some sense into Ysayle/Saint Shiva and finishing up with meeting Moenbryda for the first time in our lives. As for the deal with Ga-Bu, yes. Titan HM was thrown into Heavensward 3.4 for that story about the kobold that threw a Baby Rage for all I know, but it just feels really redundant that it can kill a person's focus for story since it actually starts getting good around Dreams of Ice towards the end of ARR. -
10-11-2019, 08:21 AMSeraph522
The issue has less to do with story and more to do with problems regarding the availability of the quest-giver for the Hard mode trial questline, namely, Minfilia. Initially, Ifrit HM, Garuda HM, and Titan HM weren't required for story completion and were optional instances, but 2.5 made them required in anticipation of Minifilia not being available for story reasons after completing 2.55. While they would eventually run into similar problems with Urianger and the EX versions of those trials, at that point Urianger was still going to be around after that point in the story, and they eventually went with the 'time bubble' explanation as to why Urianger is still hanging around to give out those quests even if he's not actually present per the MSQ. They haven't really made any changes to that requirement since then because there hasn't really been any need to, though it wouldn't surprise me if some of this was shifted around when they do the ARR streamlining in 5.3.
As for ease of completion, the hard mode trials are in the roulette, and while you can occasionally get the bad group that can't do mechanics, that happens in plenty of other instances as well. Most runs of them, in my experience, are quick and easy. -
10-11-2019, 08:46 AMJowyAtreides
I dunno, I honestly can't remember this even being a problem during ARR times, Titan Ex on the other hand /shudder
I wouldn't consider the content to be dead due to roulettes, irrelevant yes, but it gets ran within a few minutes normally.
If it's a problem nowadays, hopefully it is one solved in the changes coming in 5.3ish -
10-11-2019, 09:04 AMRivinStormfang
The only real problem with them is that the game doesn't tell you that you'll need to do them until you hit the point where they're required. If I had known that ahead of time back when I was working through the ARR MSQ, I would have spread those three out during downtimes in the story. Instead I had to do all three in a row, and it was annoying. Just find some way to encourage players to do them beforehand and it'd be fine.
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10-11-2019, 09:09 AMMistakeNotEh. Hard mode Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda aren't very hard at all as long as people don't ignore the mechanics. Many of the "normal" trials are harder.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
Besides you need to do all three of them to unlock the Coils of Bahamut raid, and to get your first relic weapon. I always make sure I have the quests synced so I can unlock Coils at the same time as I work on my relic weapon - and then they will be all done long before the MSQ requires them.
The second time you need to do Titan(Hard) is much later in the MSQ -
10-11-2019, 09:17 AMReap00
This post is just nit picking. There is nothing wrong with them adding those trials as requirements. They don't take long to queue for and are very easy. If you do manage to wipe big deal. Sometimes new players need to see a fight before they get it down. I bet you did your first time too.
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10-11-2019, 09:36 AMHyperiusUltimaYou can say it's nit-picking about the trial lock, but it's at a realllly bad time in the ARR MSQ. Just finished with Dreams of Ice and you're locked away from doing the next MSQ tii' you do them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reap00
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10-11-2019, 10:23 AMNovae
I start playing 10 months ago, got 4.0 finished within the first month and I don't remember that. To be honest I don't even remember anything blocking or slowing my progression outside of tomes farming for gear AND, later on, the red chocobos of death to unlock Ivalice (which wasn't even MSQ).
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10-11-2019, 10:51 AMValkyrie_Lenneth
I mean, this topic is kind of pointless since they are redoing the 2.1-2.5 quests for 5.3
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10-11-2019, 10:52 AMReap00You are welcome to your opinion. It takes a few mins to do each trial. I don't see any problem here. You can also get these done before you reach that "lock".Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
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10-11-2019, 12:20 PMAomine1992Those red Chocos were cancer lol they were killing everyone when that raid first came out cause it was a thousand of them running around summoning meteors everywhere. Hopefully SE strays always from that pathQuote:
Originally Posted by Novae
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10-11-2019, 12:35 PMRasikkoI can't be the only one that stopped reading the title right there.Quote:
The Problem with ARR
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10-11-2019, 01:38 PMIscahI think you're looking at the requirements back to front. It's not that they wanted to make Titan a requirement and the others are "just in the way", it's that all three are required and that clearing Titan means you've definitely cleared the others as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
As others have already said, the requirement is there because otherwise the Scion NPCs have to remain at the Waking Sands until you've completed their quests.
The forced completion point is also not the ideal time to do the quests - just the last chance to do so for continuity's sake. They're really intended to be done as soon as you complete ARR and Minfilia has both the unlock quest and the first 2.1 MSQ quest to give you. Consider it "2.0 post-credits content" before the patch storyline begins.
Ideally when they tweak the ARR script, they'll just make it part of the MSQ sequence so people do it at a fixed point instead of being forced to backtrack to it later. -
10-11-2019, 05:58 PMLalaRu
You cannot call the first three primals "a wall" in 2019.
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10-11-2019, 06:23 PMRasikko
..Eh I donno. All 4 are newbies against Titan, can see some vote abandons going, if only because of landslide.
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10-11-2019, 07:10 PMNessaWyvernI actually really liked the red chocobo EX, it added a bit of laughter and variety to the game XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Aomine1992
I also miss those killer plants that used to mob people in the hinterlands.
I dunno, I always have the most fun in games when it goes awry a little. -
10-11-2019, 09:13 PMFrizzeSo this issue, to you, is as much about timing as anything. Ok, ill buy that. Make ifrit required during the 2.1 patch quests(near the king mog fight perhaps), add garuda requirement to the 2.2 quests(so near leviathan), and titan slots in for 2.3(ramuh vicinity). The story really starts to pick up after ramuh anyway, so these already being out of the way wouldnt hurt anything. They could still put the unlock quest there as soon as you finish 2.0, and finishing them early wouldnt have to hinder your progress. You add a dialogue box to one of the quests(before you handle ____, could you take care of the ifrit/garuda/titan issue), and if the trial is already done switch the dialogue to (thanks for handling the ifrit/garuda/titan thing, im sure youll have no problem with ____).Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
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10-11-2019, 09:28 PMLaylaTsarra
They are redo'ing the arr quest line so you might want to wait and see what they have planned. Your wishes might be included in the revamp.
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10-11-2019, 09:51 PMLalaRuMaybe keep out the lore duty unlocks is excessive, 'tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra
I expect a huge cut in "go there talk then go back" or "kill 10 rats" fillers. To avoid any miss on the little or near-none lore involved, them can become just regular quests. -
10-11-2019, 11:45 PMJojoya
I'm guessing you used a skip potion since all 3 of those HMs had to be completed before you could even accept the quest to kill Leviathan in the level 50 MSQ. It's a non-issue by the time it's required for the level 60 MSQ unless you skip.
It's not a big deal. They're roughly the same if not easier in difficulty than all the other 8 man Normal trials that are also part of the MSQ.
As for why SE didn't build them directly into the level 50 MSQ in the first place, I don't know. Certainly it would have been easy enough to insert the same side quest lore into the MSQ. -
10-12-2019, 12:53 AMRyuSaarvabecause the original 3 hard modes used to be actually hard optional fights and not a joke difficulty like they are now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
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10-12-2019, 01:37 AMMahoukenshiIfrit,Titan and Garuda Hard were not required for Whorleater Hard (according to wiki near the end of Patch 2.2), but way later to start "Good Intentions" (beginning of Patch 2.5)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
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10-12-2019, 05:47 AMHyperiusUltimaI've never used a skip potion since I've been here since 2.4. Also, as said above, Leviathan/Good King Moggle Mog XII/Ramuh/Shiva were all accessible up until you hit the MSQ "Good Intentions", which requires you to have done those 3 HMs for continuity's sake later on in HW. I've only just had a gripe with it since I've tried an alt and it feels like they shoved their foot in the door when you're trying to move on to the next MSQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
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10-12-2019, 08:51 AMTaleraRistain
I just ran through post ARR to HW with an alt and I didn't take long to get into those at all. I'm a healer, though. Was it a DPS queue issue?
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10-12-2019, 07:43 PMMistakeNotI am not so sure it is for the sake of continuity, although I suppose it could be. The requirement to do those to proceed with the 2.x MSQ was added long before the relevant HW quest was added.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
But anyway I am pretty sure you are expected to have done the HM trials long before the 2.x MSQ requires them - you can unlock them much earlier, and they are required for several other things as well. Skipping all the optional stuff and concentrating on just the MSQ is not really how you are supposed to play, even though it certainly is possible to do it that way. -
10-13-2019, 01:18 PMIscahIt's definitely for continuity, but far more immediate than the 3.X quest you're thinking of.Quote:
Originally Posted by MistakeNot
The hard mode unlock quests involve all the core Scions - specific NPCs programmed to sit at a table at the Waking Sands, and have to remain there until you complete the quest associated with them. But the characters those NPCs represent should not be at the Waking Sands by that point. There will be new instances of the NPCs at the Rising Stones, where the characters currently are, but the old version will be stuck in place as well. -
10-13-2019, 08:43 PMRhusI got the first few achievements for ressing outside a party thans to the carnage that was Red Chocobo Ex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aomine1992
I just camped out there while queueing for duties and threw people resses for a few days. Good fun. -
10-13-2019, 11:32 PMADarkloreThis is most certainly how I play, because when it comes to Aether Currents, it makes doing those side quests SO MUCH EASIER when you can fly! So if you just focus on MSQ and those blue+ side quests along with seeking out Aether Currents with compass, you can unlock all the Aether Currents pretty quickly... then go back and finish side quests.Quote:
Originally Posted by MistakeNot
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10-14-2019, 02:17 AMLauraAdalenaI'll admit, I didn't ever get the "pray return" joke because I actually only remembered her saying it a couple times. That aside. this is literally a non-issue. It's 3 trials and they're super easy at this point. Honestly, it'd also be weird to do one and not the other two. If it was removed it wouldn't feel any better or worse just like how the required side-dungeons and guildhest missions did before those were removed. is it strange they require you to do this? Yes I guess. Does it hurt if you do them? no. Is it the deciding factor for why people left? I highly doubt it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
(also, I moved a sentence from your second paragraph to the first so the points flow better)
I literally when the HW mission requiring Titan Hard came out didn't unsynch and didn't think to and just DF queued and got it cleared without any issues or really needing to do mechanics all that much. I did the same mission with my sister and we didn't have any issue, I didn't need to invite people from my FC or unsynch, we just queued and got it. I do not see how this is a problem. Literally, even if shit goes wrong 90% of people know enough about the fight to carry you and 90% of the time it's down a healer/tank and DPS when I get it in roulettes anyway. And then Ifrit and Garuda have even LESS deaths and can be carried even easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
Wait, level 60? That's Heavensward. Not ARR. Wait, are we talking about the old lock that I'm fairly certain was removed or the HW 3.4 required Titan Hard? Now I'm confused. Because 3.4 has no relation to ARR's pacing issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
No seriously, I've read this post quite a bit and I get confused at that point every time. -
10-14-2019, 02:35 AMHyperiusUltimaI was referring to the time in HW where you fight Titan. Why else would I say Lv 60 anywhere else? The only reason they force Titan Hard at “Good Intentions” is because of that particular moment in time. That, and also the issue with potentially missing the HMs because of the move to The Rising Stones in 2.2/2.3. They made a little ‘time bubble’ just so that you wouldn’t forget it since Minfilia also goes poof just before Soul Surrender. It’s more tedious than anything to be forced to do them when you want to continue MSQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraAdalena
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10-14-2019, 07:16 PMIscahDo you remember the story arc with the kobold child that accidentally summoned Titan? The game makes you redo Titan Hard to represent that fight (then changes all the dialogue to make it heartbreaking).Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraAdalena