Blue Mage the All rounder?

Could blue mage work similar to the crystal exarch's role?

I’d like that, maybe only let a caster version be used for high end content but in most other stuff it could have set abilities to use for each role. Would need more healing spells and defensive cooldowns but would be a hell of a lot better than the mess it is now.

I made a three role system suggestion for blue mage long before it was released. Dancer too.

These two jobs could have easily fit any role and could have switched between them with little effort. Blue mage having a spell set for tanking, healing, dpsing and dancer having stances and dances for the different roles. Whatever role they are fulfilling being locked as soon as they get the entering instance notification. It would make things super easy as they would only have to design one job essentially.

Let's face it tho, SE isn't really...imaginative or ground breaking in class design. They rely on already existing classes for the most part and a whole lot of cliches. Red Mage could have been absolutely amazing as a battle mage, using en-spells to enhance dps and rotating between casting and melee. But instead we got basically a black mage in a fancy hat. Sure it has a (lackluster) melee rotation and a raise, but those are mostly afterthoughts. Even the red mage's sword becomes....a staff. They couldn't have made the job more unimaginative.

So a three role job would be quite a stretch albeit exciting.

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Originally Posted by chrismercenary

Could blue mage work similar to the crystal exarch's role?

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I don't see why it should. If anything it should be RDM filling that role but no we get this weak watered down black mage with a melee combo instead.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Let's face it tho, SE isn't really...imaginative or ground breaking in class design.

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because of class balance.

plus already when it's so easy to change classes ... u don't give different roles to a class. In a game like WoW .. it makes sense, since 1 toon has only 1 class. in here it makes no sense at all to give multiple roles to a class ... then u struggle with balance adding the risk of having only 1 viable role.

but class balance is a big limitation to creativity

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Originally Posted by chrismercenary

Could blue mage work similar to the crystal exarch's role?

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I suppose it could, why should it though?

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Originally Posted by nalol

because of class balance.

plus already when it's so easy to change classes ... u don't give different roles to a class. In a game like WoW .. it makes sense, since 1 toon has only 1 class. in here it makes no sense at all to give multiple roles to a class ... then u struggle with balance adding the risk of having only 1 viable role.

but class balance is a big limitation to creativity

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Not really tho. I mean you can do something different on a superficial basis. Look at ast, how many games have healers running around with star globes and cards? I am not talking about the function of a job but the way it is presented. You can still have a dps but does it need to be just like every other dps? MMOs in general are horrible when it comes to class design. Mostly the devs check boxes more than doing something fun. You can have the old standards, but throw at least a little something different in there now and then.

Was there a reason to make Red Mage into a budget black mage? You can still have balance and have rdm be a caster without falling back on the old "is casting magic, must give staff" trope. Esp for a job like rdm which has such a rich and varied background. Not all casters need books and staffs.

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Originally Posted by nalol

because of class balance.

plus already when it's so easy to change classes ... u don't give different roles to a class. In a game like WoW .. it makes sense, since 1 toon has only 1 class. in here it makes no sense at all to give multiple roles to a class ... then u struggle with balance adding the risk of having only 1 viable role.

but class balance is a big limitation to creativity

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This would matter if BLU wasn't already trampling on the Trinity System with a Tank Stance/Emnity Skill, AoE heal and a blend of Physical and Magical Damage littered throughout its toolkit. SE could rework the majority of BLU current spells and change them to better suit an all around job that can function as a Tank/Healer/DPS as need be with a quick swap out of its spells. It's not as though BLU doesn't have 6 different versions of the same skill with only the minimalist of differences between them anyways so why not adjust them to fit into the all around role and make BLU actually something useful, even if only for the lower level stuff?

Right now I think the closest we can get from that is if ever Blue Mage gets reworked into full-pledged job, it's still classified as a DPS but has the ability to (somewhat) both tank or heal if they wish, but get penalized in the effectiveness of the other two roles they didn't choose. It will probably just cause chaos though.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Was there a reason to make Red Mage into a budget black mage? You can still have balance and have rdm be a caster without falling back on the old "is casting magic, must give staff" trope. Esp for a job like rdm which has such a rich and varied background. Not all casters need books and staffs.

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I mean...Red Mage is technically a budget Black Mage (and White Mage) so it's not like it's wrong, but I love how they presented it in FFXIV even if it can't really fulfill the healer/support role that much. I just wish they expanded on it more than just add one new skill on their rotation.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

This would matter if BLU wasn't already trampling on the Trinity System with a Tank Stance/Emnity Skill, AoE heal and a blend of Physical and Magical Damage littered throughout its toolkit.

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It's hardly trampling the trinity though, it can't take aggro from a tank, it can't tank as well as a tank and it can't replace a healer with just one expensive AoE heal.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

SE could rework the majority of BLU current spells and change them to better suit an all around job that can function as a Tank/Healer/DPS as need be with a quick swap out of its spells. It's not as though BLU doesn't have 6 different versions of the same skill with only the minimalist of differences between them anyways so why not adjust them to fit into the all around role and make BLU actually something useful, even if only for the lower level stuff?

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It's not going to happen though, this is a dev team that thinks hitting monsters to gain skills is such a incredibly radical departure from the norm that the job has to be restricted from all current content and remain at least 20 levels below level cap for the foreseeable future.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

These two jobs could have easily fit any role and could have switched between them with little effort. Blue mage having a spell set for tanking, healing, dpsing and dancer having stances and dances for the different roles. Whatever role they are fulfilling being locked as soon as they get the entering instance notification. It would make things super easy as they would only have to design one job essentially.

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In the context of BLU, you'd need a solid set of mechanics for that to work. Either that or a framework that plays the same regardless of role, which I admit is untried and iffy at best.

Off the top of my head, you could probably bunch certain spells into a rotation using monster affinity as a determining factor. As you suggested, creating spell sets for each role, with the Masked Carnivale allowing you access to every spell at the same time. The trick then becomes which role to make the default BLU role (I'd go for caster DPS), then decide on how this multi-role thing would be implemented (assuming regular gameplay with no detours builds caster DPS BLU, the tank and healer options wouldn't show up unless you've collected requisite spells for it; maybe use a hunting log-type system for it that updates itself per expansion).

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Let's face it tho, SE isn't really...imaginative or ground breaking in class design. They rely on already existing classes for the most part and a whole lot of cliches. Red Mage could have been absolutely amazing as a battle mage, using en-spells to enhance dps and rotating between casting and melee. But instead we got basically a black mage in a fancy hat. Sure it has a (lackluster) melee rotation and a raise, but those are mostly afterthoughts. Even the red mage's sword becomes....a staff. They couldn't have made the job more unimaginative.

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I'd say it's more that classes are built within a certain framework, which can work for or against a job. It's sort of like writing 5 stories that have the same pacing and conflicts, but involve completely different characters; the outline will work for certain characters but not for others (leading to stories that drag on or feel forced).

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Originally Posted by nalol

but class balance is a big limitation to creativity

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Class balance has nothing to do with limits in design. If you want a class to do something, you figure out how to make that happen within the framework you set, not shrug your shoulders and say "it can't be done". There's ways BLU could have been implemented within the design approach for the other jobs, with a couple of twists to allow the job to come into its own.

And because I couldn't resist:

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

I mean...Red Mage is technically a budget Black Mage (and White Mage) so it's not like it's wrong, but I love how they presented it in FFXIV even if it can't really fulfill the healer/support role that much. I just wish they expanded on it more than just add one new skill on their rotation.

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On a triangular graph where WAR, BLM, and WHM stand on each tip of the triangle, RDM would be smack in the middle. I'd argue they leaned too much on the magical side of the job, especially since the job is supposed to be several tiers behind BLM and WHM, not have their own versions of each school's most powerful spells (Flare and Holy). To compensate for lacking that mastery of magic, they have some melee prowess and are hardier than your average mage (the former horribly underrepresented in this game, the latter non-existent since RDM was put on "of Casting" gear).

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Originally Posted by Jandor

It's hardly trampling the trinity though, it can't take aggro from a tank, it can't tank as well as a tank and it can't replace a healer with just one expensive AoE heal.

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I wouldn't expect a Jack of All Trades to do better than a specialty role. With how SE adjusted Aggro to be tied into Tank Stances more, it only makes sense that a Tank would hold aggro better than a BLU due to the fact that BLU has 1 skill that builds Emnity (I think its only 1) vs Tanks that build it passively thru their rotation. As for Healing, yes White Wind is an expensive AoE heal and could never replace a true healer either but again, it shouldn't have the complete capabilities of a Healer as a Jack of All Trades so I can live with that.

What I want for SE to do though is to make it so BLU can somewhat fill these roles by adjusting their current toolkit. They could easily adjust Transfer to be a non-lethal Single Target Heal, make Wonder Guard build Emnity with all skills, and adjust the Stats of BLU gear to be all purpose gear, being a blend of VIT, INT, and MND just to give BLU a starting basis to work with. As for the whole Learning from Monster aspect, its not as though some enemies don't heal/buff each other that we couldn't learn these skills from them either to keep that part of BLU true to the source material as possible and then there's always the possibility of introducing more Whalaqee Totem skills as well.

The idea of making BLU a Jack of All Trades is very much possible, SE just needs to be willing to make the adjustments is all.

Wasting even more development time on this failed job is the last thing we need.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Wasting even more development time on this failed job is the last thing we need.

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They've already wasted the time working on BLU. Might as well make that wasted time be as productive as possible.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

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I'd be down to try reworking BLU's skills into something that could actually be usable to an extent. There's a plethora of skills that could be reworked, if not outright scrapped that you could fairly easily make BLU into a viable Caster, Tank or Healer.

Caster DPS:
Since BLU already has a wide variety of elemental attacks, most of which already combo into other skills, that theme should be expanded upon. Let's add a job gauge that builds up towards unlocking a Primal Ability if we build the gauge far enough into that Primal's affinity. So, if I use Bomb Toss > Flamethrower > Fire Angon, I could use Eruption as a finisher combo skill. Since we removed several skills, we can use these spots to introduce skills that would better serve a Caster DPS role.

Tank:
We already have Mighty Guard as a Tank Stance, a pseudo invuln Skill with Diamondback, a Vengence-esque skill with Veil of the Whorl as well as Ice Spikes, a gap closer with Flying Frenzy and an Emnity Skill with The Look. BLU Tank literally has so much potential already available to it as is that adjusting the odd handful of skills it has available to it to form a coherent Tank Rotation would be near child's play. It would literally be as simple as just making Mighty Guard make all BLU skills build Emnity that you could probably already make BLU tank work fairly well, if their gear wasn't locked to Caster only (easy enough to fix if they make all BLU gear a blend of VIT, INT and MND since its already exclusive to BLU anyway).

Healer:
This one would probably be the hardest role to fill out fully. In terms of Healing, BLU has White Wind and Transfer, the latter of which could just be adjusted to be a non-lethal single target heal. After that though, there's not much else to work with as is. There are a rare handful of enemies that use Healing abilities on their allies, such as the Wamoura from Lost City of Amdaphor but they're extremely rare so it would require a bit of finesse to actually work out a manageable Healing toolkit from what's currently available. Hell, apart from Wamoura's Healing ability, the only other Healer type skill that I can think of BLU could learn would be Stoneskin, which ironically could replace Level 5 Petrify as the same mob that uses Level 5 Petrify also uses Stoneskin but I'd be a very salty WHM myself if that happened. After that, IDK Whaalaqee totem the rest I guess.

The potential is there, there just needs to be a way to rework some skills or flat out replace them for skills with actual practical usage.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

ideas for roles

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I like several of your suggestions here.

Something I was thinking about was introducing totems to sort of "lock" BLU into a role for dungeons and raids. Like have one that is for the tank role, but can only be used if you have specific spells in your spellbook. I'm compelled to leave BLU as is in the overworld because the current implementation seems to be built with overworld mobs in mind.

Connecting to your post, you could also add a totem for magic DPS that enhances or adds properties to certain spells in the kit. I personally wouldn't go for sticking to an element, but would play on the relationship between certain spells or expand on stuff like Toad Oil => Self-destruct or Aqua Breath => High Voltage.

A lot of the ideas presented in this thread are... so good!!! I wish Square would actually be creative enough to implement something like this.

I mean personally, I would be fascinated by a BLU full job that was played as a tank.

A) BLU historically is a job where its core mechanic is based around taking a beating in order to adapt and grow more powerful.
B) I think it would be cool, purely for the aesthetic, to go into a dungeon with a WHM healer, BLM and RDM DPS, and BLU tank to fill out a complete mage group.

But, I also understand the adaptation element would have been impossible to implement as a full job.