Back-logging weekly clears

Sometimes, real life or a bad static will push your weekly raids out of schedule for that week. Or sometimes you just don’t want to try PF E4S on Monday night, or settle for a 0 chest because you must clear it that week or lose the chance before reset.

This would not be a problem if raid resets had one week grace period. It means you can earn rewards for raid lockouts you missed for a week past, including Eden normal and Eden savage. So you can compensate for a missed week.

The reasoning behind this is, unlike earning phantasm tomes, raiding is inherently a much more time consuming and even time slot limited activity. Long wait times even for Eden normal if you are late to that week’s party and everyone has cleared already. Long wait times even for weekly groups if you don’t form them during PF prime time.

I’ve also had static members be so afraid of PF that they’d rather miss a week than try to scrape a PF group on Monday night, or have to “share” loot with PF people. They see it as not worth the time and organization, hardly different from a 1 or 0 chest.

This would all not be a problem if they can simply say “we’ll just wait until next reset night and run it double”. Furthermore, allowing people to “store an extra charge” of raid reward allows people to sometimes use the second charge used “help” groups, as helpers, but without reducing their chests.

I also believe that sometimes, double reward charges can be psychologically satisfying, while many of the scenarios I described without is the opposite.

So just one idea to improve on the raiding experience, and the 2-chest system plus meme-level PF experience this expansion.

You have 6 MONTHS to raid this tier. there is absolutely no need for a grace period.

I remember the ex trials were a better pf experience than savage pf. I think partly because the ex trials don’t have a lockout time limit.

People queued whenever they were at their best condition instead of having to make static schedules or rush earliest pf during the week. No salt on gear because you could just queue again right away, even with the same group, and everyone eventually gets something. Also perhaps they were more fun and easier too.

EX weapons tend to also be more of a stopgap gear wise rather than the best you can get.
You can still find other people who haven't done their savage run like you later in the week.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

I remember the ex trials were a better pf experience than savage pf. I think partly because the ex trials don’t have a lockout time limit.

People queued whenever they were at their best condition instead of having to make static schedules or rush earliest pf during the week. No salt on gear because you could just queue again right away, even with the same group, and everyone eventually gets something. Also perhaps they were more fun and easier too.

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Ex trials are also usually a lot easier mechanic-wise.

Sorry to break it to you, but Savage isnt really designed for the "casual" players whos relaying on DF/PF and playing whenever they feel like it - its content aimed at those who'd like - and are able - to invest a bit more into the game and get appropriate rewards for that time and effort invested. If you cant do that, maybe this content isnt really for you - and thats okay. You dont need to do everything in the game and the game doesnt need to let you do anything easly.
The idea that Savage is designed for statics allows for more complexe and punishing mechanics compared to dungeons or even EX-trials. Take that away and you basically get a Savage-nerf. Personally I dont want that.

Savage does not need a back-log for clears. Savage is content that is designed for players who are willing to set aside the time each week to do the content—not for players who suddenly don’t feel like doing the content for a week, but want to be able to cash in on rewards the next. If you aren’t dedicated enough to do the content each week within the weekly time frame, then you don’t deserve the rewards. I’m being blunt, but I’m also speaking truth.

It’s not your fault if things happen that cause you to miss a week, that is true—but missing a week due to whatever circumstance doesn’t entitle you to the rewards you miss out on. If you make the conscious decision to skip E4S because you don’t want to “settle for 0 chests”, that’s entirely on you. That doesn’t mean that you deserve to get the rewards you actively decided not to pursue the next week when things are suddenly more convenient.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

I remember the ex trials were a better pf experience than savage pf. I think partly because the ex trials don’t have a lockout time limit.

People queued whenever they were at their best condition instead of having to make static schedules or rush earliest pf during the week. No salt on gear because you could just queue again right away, even with the same group, and everyone eventually gets something. Also perhaps they were more fun and easier too.

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Savage and Extremes are two different beasts here: the former require more time and dedication as opposed to the latter. And while Savage itself continues to be watered down every expansion, it’s still content designed for those who put in the time to clear it—not those who think “I’m going to do E1S today” and just queue in repeatedly for gear at their convenience. Extremes have no loot lockout, yes—but they also offer lesser gear compared to the current Savage tier.

You are more than able to venture into Savage whenever you want during the week—on Aether, there are always PFs up for the floors. Sure, parties that are made outside of Primetime hours may fill at slower rates, but that’s the chance you take when you set up parties outside of the evening hours when the majority of players are online. If you wait until Monday to do your clears, there’s a chance you may not complete them all before the reset depending on when you start trying to get them cleared—but that’s ultimately on you because you consciously chose to wait that long.

Not everyone has the time to do Savage every week—and that’s okay. If you’re busy in real life and have to miss the week for X reason, you gotta do what you gotta do. But missing a week doesn’t mean that you deserve to get the rewards the next. Think of Savage like weekly raffles: if you don’t enter in one week, that doesn’t mean that you can still win the raffle prizes for that week the following week.

Tiers last for six months: that is plenty of time to get whatever gear you want (and, very likely, then some). They’ve even started removing loot lockouts in the last month that the tier is current to make farming them even easier. There’s no rush to getting this gear unless you’re planning on tackling the Ultimate that’s coming out soon, where it’s actually needed for survivability/damage requirements—otherwise, missing a week isn’t that detrimental. You’ll be behind, yes; but it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Tiers last for six months: that is plenty of time to get whatever gear you want (and, very likely, then some). They’ve even started removing loot lockouts in the last month that the tier is current to make farming them even easier. There’s no rush to getting this gear unless you’re planning on tackling the Ultimate that’s coming out soon, where it’s actually needed for survivability/damage requirements—otherwise, missing a week isn’t that detrimental. You’ll be behind, yes; but it is what it is.

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...just as a little sidenote: No one whos planning to tackle Ultimate should be pugging Savage right now. Ultimate will ultimatly (...excuse the pun) require you to have a static anyways, which means setting aisde a dedicated time-frame every week. If someone cant do that for Savage, they wont be able to do that for Ultimate.

Additional sidenote: Being on the same DC and even server as the OP, I can confirm that I'm seeing PFs for Savage-clears up at almost all times during the week. There are always clear-runs up during evening primetimes from 5-11pm, I've seen some around noon aswell as the occassional ones late at night, so from midnight to 4am. I even joked about seeing a "late weekly clear"-PF up at 2am on a monday-morning, 8 hours before weekly reset.
So, yeah... my only guess would be that a lot - or at least some - of those groups arent able to clear it (or at least not able to carry people...) and thats creating a feeling of not being able to get a Savage-clear. As mentioned before though: Thats due to the more complexe mechanics... the whole notion of "people cant go back and help others with their clears!" falls flat on its face since they actually can do that - with a loot-penalty, though - and that kinda does sound a bit like wanting a carry to me... sure, its comfy to pick up the FC-tank who cleared E4S for your E1S-clear so you dont have to deal with PF-people, I get that... but there is a price to pay to fo this content: Either in time and effort in maintaining a static - or living with pugs or/and loot-penalties if you want the easy way out.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

I remember the ex trials were a better pf experience than savage pf. I think partly because the ex trials don’t have a lockout time limit.

People queued whenever they were at their best condition instead of having to make static schedules or rush earliest pf during the week. No salt on gear because you could just queue again right away, even with the same group, and everyone eventually gets something. Also perhaps they were more fun and easier too.

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A pug can faceroll Inno EX with multiple vul stacks, minor coordination and even some people dead.

A pug cannot in most cases faceroll anything from E1S onwards as the damage output for raidwides and the gap for failure is much tighter and that is only with skilled players in the group. There's a reason why you see countless more prog groups for savage then EX primals. When the new EX comes out if it's in tradition as Thordan and Shinryu I expect it to be much harder then our current two, but anyone who has cleared content like E2S and possibly to an extent of E1S shouldn't be too worried past some new mechs.

There's a mentality in Savage especially in the PUG clearing scene. Just clear the fight as quickly as possible so less mechs have to be worried about. That knowledge really can't be learned in a single day for some so it requires a week almost a month of just prog to get the fight burned into your memory. I ran E2S so much I know the order of events without needing a guide including the cycles and delayed flare times.

The talk about people not “deserving” savage clears. Reminds me of similar responses to my “practice mode” suggestion for savage content so players can experience the fight without much time wasted and constant resets from people randomly dying. Maybe a few weeks after it is out, or even a minor patch later, but anything to improve the PF experience.

As for raids requiring “skill”, my impression is that they are more ping-checks and attention-checks than skill-checks. Many other games, many multiplayer, require skill. But not every one I’ve seen, manage to pad it as well as FFXIV, giving players the illusion that this really is elite. That corresponding attitudes and pretension while clearing it is also part of the requirement.

It is not healthy. I do not believe it is good for the game in the long run. Weekly limits are mostly to keep players coming back on a set schedule and keep the game in their minds, dominating their attention. Only to a much lesser extent is it for controlling progression so people don’t get geared in one week and afk. (Though even that can also be viewed negatively as time-wasting in the ultimate form, to buy SE time for development of more content).

And finally, though I sincerely hope that’s not the case, it would be great if people didn’t simply give up trying to consider things from the “lesser viewpoint” as soon as a dominant consensus is reached in view of the matter.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

As for raids requiring “skill”, my impression is that they are more ping-checks and attention-checks than skill-checks. Many other games, many multiplayer, require skill. But not every one I’ve seen, manage to pad it as well as FFXIV, giving players the illusion that this really is elite. That corresponding attitudes and pretension while clearing it is also part of the requirement.

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While the raids now require less skill than they have in the past, they still require skill—more skill than any other content in this game requires. A lot of the playerbase probably could not provide the skill needed for the checks—which is honestly fine. Skill is something people practice to obtain; and if players don’t have the interest in gaining skill for high-end content, that’s their prerogative. There is honestly nothing wrong with how people choose to play the game.

More so than skill, Savage is something that requires time and dedication. It is not content for you to do on a whim whenever you please and still aim to cash in on rewards that you previously missed. If you aren’t dedicated to running the content one week, you don’t deserve the rewards for that week. It’s really that simple. Much like my raffle example, if you don’t enter into the Week 3 raffle but still want to receive Week 3 prizes during Week 4, well, that’s not how that works. If you want the rewards, do the content within the applicable time-frame.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

It is not healthy. I do not believe it is good for the game in the long run. Weekly limits are mostly to keep players coming back on a set schedule and keep the game in their minds, dominating their attention. Only to a much lesser extent is it for controlling progression so people don’t get geared in one week and afk. (Though even that can also be viewed negatively as time-wasting in the ultimate form, to buy SE time for development of more content).

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Yes. It’s meant to keep the subscriptions rolling. This is business 101. Yoshida does advocate for taking breaks, but ultimately, Square Enix wants players to keep playing their game, and to keep paying month subscriptions.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

And finally, though I sincerely hope that’s not the case, it would be great if people didn’t simply give up trying to consider things from the “lesser viewpoint” as soon as a dominant consensus is reached in view of the matter.

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You posted a thread on a discussion forum. You should expect people to post their viewpoints on the subject matter even if they oppose your own. Asking for players to not do that is asking for an echo chamber—which you won’t find here.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

The talk about people not “deserving” savage clears. Reminds me of similar responses to my “practice mode” suggestion for savage content so players can experience the fight without much time wasted and constant resets from people randomly dying. Maybe a few weeks after it is out, or even a minor patch later, but anything to improve the PF experience.

As for raids requiring “skill”, my impression is that they are more ping-checks and attention-checks than skill-checks. Many other games, many multiplayer, require skill. But not every one I’ve seen, manage to pad it as well as FFXIV, giving players the illusion that this really is elite. That corresponding attitudes and pretension while clearing it is also part of the requirement.

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If it doesnt require any skill, why isnt everyone clearing it? Why are people struggling with their weekly clears in PF and why dont you just queue up for it using DF whenever you like?

You need to consider that there are different types of skill - so other games might require some different type of skill. FFXIV requires you to basically memorize the fight - and that is indeed a type of skill. Different from a situational awareness that another game might require or very quick reaction of another game.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

It is not healthy. I do not believe it is good for the game in the long run. Weekly limits are mostly to keep players coming back on a set schedule and keep the game in their minds, dominating their attention. Only to a much lesser extent is it for controlling progression so people don’t get geared in one week and afk. (Though even that can also be viewed negatively as time-wasting in the ultimate form, to buy SE time for development of more content).

And finally, though I sincerely hope that’s not the case, it would be great if people didn’t simply give up trying to consider things from the “lesser viewpoint” as soon as a dominant consensus is reached in view of the matter.

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I know you'll come back with some argument about "Things can still be improved", but I'd still like to mention that its been working fine for 6 years and 9 (11 if we want to count Ultimate) raid-tiers now, so it cant be that unhealthy for the game - seems pretty long-run to me already /shrug.
And as HyoMin already pointed out: This is as much a buisness- as it is a gameplay-descision. After all they want - and need! - you to stay subbed. Because it wouldnt be healthy for the game if the majority of the raid-intrested-population would just unsub after the first few weeks of the new raidtier - a lot of people are doing that already, which is part of the reason why you're having more trouble to find a group if you're late to the party.

I'm completely on board with HyoMin and Vidu on this.
Business decisions aside I think you're missing one important point about savage: it's endgame content specifically designed for the players who actively seek out difficulty, excitement of "dangerous" content and enjoy the requirement for organization, strategy and optimization and regularity.
It's not meant to primarily please people who hop in every now and then when they feel like and tune out for two weeks when they don't but people who want to break their horns on difficult bosses, get beaten over and over again, adjust strategies and practice until they can finally collectively cheer "WE GOT IT!".
That you have one week to clear content before it resets is not only a business decision so players stay subbed it, the limited time also adds a pressure and sense of urgency that is desired by most raiders. Your reward is not only earned by clearing it but by clearing it in a timely manner. The limited time you have to progress before it resets is part of the challenge.

It's possible to clear content with PUGs which is already pretty generous compared to other games where raiding outside of statics/ guilds was something that was strongly discouraged. It takes longer, you will likely run into many [Duty Completion] parties who are not even close to killing the boss for the lack of strategy, dps and awareness, but it's quite possible.
And I think that's enough. You're not being excluded from content, you are merely asked to take the long route since you can't or don't want to play it in the way it was primarily designed for.

But making savage more forgiving and cuddly by adding a back-log for clears (or a "practice mode" you suggested in another thread) will water down the difficulty of savage in a way that is not desired by most raiders. They are doing it for the difficulty and the challenge, it's not something they want to see watered down.

You can play this game in whatever way you prefer and that's a great thing about MMOs. They offer a lot of content for a myriad of people with different priorities and schedules. But not every content is designed for all groups of players. Instead you have different types of content designed with specific people in mind (grinder, raider, lore fans, crafter etc).
If you do not belong to a specific group as in not meeting the requirements SE had in mind for this type of content you get a workaround way to still do it which likely takes longer but at least doesn't exclude you completely.
That's honestly very generous.

Then I'm interested on how people think on another issue, aka. how clearing a later savage raid of the tier means automatic forfeiture of prior savage raid weekly reward.

Is this necessary? Even after you have cleared the raid for the first time? What benefit does it serve but to inconvenience players trying to pug weeklies? (probably some arcane reason of preventing alt exploits or something)

Same with the 2-chest system. It's wonderful for statics, much less for pugs.

SE probably perceives it as fine as there's plenty of content for pugs, so savage content can be structured with different priorities in mind. But as things are atm, "normal" players are trying to engage in savage content, but without a perfect static, it is inefficient and not very fun. Vidu once made a point, that we want to game and not waste our time. The same goes for normal players too. There's shouldn't be a special "zone" that normal players don't have the right to efficiently clear in.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

SE probably perceives it as fine as there's plenty of content for pugs, so savage content can be structured with different priorities in mind. But as things are atm, "normal" players are trying to engage in savage content, but without a perfect static, it is inefficient and not very fun. Vidu once made a point, that we want to game and not waste our time. The same goes for normal players too. There's shouldn't be a special "zone" that normal players don't have the right to efficiently clear in.

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Just because a person considers themselves to be “a normal player” doesn’t mean that they’re exempt from the time, effort, and organization harder content calls for. You don’t need a “perfect static” to clear Savage—especially not now, when it’s easier than it’s ever been.

The fact still stands that savage is primarily designed with statics in mind.
You can pug content and clear it before next raid tier hits, you have several months to do so. But consider this: pugging has several upsides, e.g. you can hop in/ hop off whenever you feel like it, you are not bound to the expectations and rules of a static and can chose to step it up or down a notch whenever you want, even changing it on a daily basis if you want, you don't have to spent any additional time organizing and coordinating, you can even chose to skip bosses and advance to a later boss right away as long as there is a person out there who cleared it and has an "ID".

Statics, on the other hand, require eight people to set aside a fixed amount of time each week, they require more time and effort spent on coordinating everything and they usually need to advance through all previous bosses to reach their progress boss.
So why exactly should someone who gets all the benefits of pugging content get the exact same benefits of a static aswell without doing what is neccessary for a static just because they consider themselves "normal players"?
It sounds like you want a lot for little effort. Not every content is designed for the same amount of time spent and just because you can't or don't want to spent the additional time tackling endgame content in the way it was primarily designed for doesn't mean you should get the same rewards as people who do.
You DO have a way to clear it.
You may feel like it's not good enough for you, but it works just fine. The advantages statics have are the reward for the time, effort and organization they require.

Edit: This particular idea probably won’t happen, people will still have to take the long route, and it doesn’t really matter anymore.
I still say I put in possibly more effort than a static person, to clear the tier in PF. And you’ll never understand it unless you sat through it physically on a 1-1 timescale.

But there is a specific kind of disappointment, which results from gaming on because you trust the game, trust the developer, trust the content structure etc. to still believe it is “right” to try nicely and all. Even when you have been proven wrong before. But you will be proven wrong again, and it will only be your own fault for stupidly trusting on. And you will deserve all your troubles, as well as the fun made of you.

May someday this game allow us to speak of lighter things. In better circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

Edit: This particular idea probably won’t happen, people will still have to take the long route, and it doesn’t really matter anymore.
I still say I put in possibly more effort than a static person, to clear the tier in PF. And you’ll never understand it unless you sat through it physically on a 1-1 timescale.

But there is a specific kind of disappointment, which results from gaming on because you trust the game, trust the developer, trust the content structure etc. to still believe it is “right” to try nicely and all. Even when you have been proven wrong before. But you will be proven wrong again, and it will only be your own fault for stupidly trusting on. And you will deserve all your troubles, as well as the fun made of you.

May someday this game allow us to speak of lighter things. In better circumstances.

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I'm not quite sure what you're on about here, but maybe you placed your trust expecting the wrong things - because I've trusted that they'll deliver difficult raid-content aimed at statics with max-ilvl rewards every 5-6 months and so far I havent been disappointed.

In regards to the amount of effort someone puts into this: Statics require a different kind of effort than pugging. In the long run you might need to perfect your own gameplay more and endure more terrible groups when going the PF-route, but a static will require you to comitt to a schedudle, to be play the same job/role every week, to maybe go back and clear tiers you dont need to clear anymore (I might not need anything from E3S, but if my static mates do, we'll go and clear it til everyone has their loot), to even finding a static that suits your playstyle. As a static-leader you might even take on the task to keep an eye for everyones gear-progression, look for replacements if someone cant make it etc. etc.
Both ways have their pros and cons - and the effort to organise a static is rewarded with better loot-chances.

At the end of the day you can talk about lighter things already... if you want to, that is... unless by "light things" you mean talking about how even more content caters to the more casual playerbase now...