Direction of Bard?

If you have Bard at 50, you may have been wondering about this as well. For me Bard was suppose to be a unique class that offered an experience unlike any other class in FFXIV. However, I believe Bard lacks a true path in regards to party dynamics.

Let me first start off with what roles a Bard can play in exp, raid, etc.:

• Support (via songs)
• Support (via emergency healer)
• Standard DPS
• Puller

The list seems pretty small, but each point helps my position on the matter that Bard needs a more refine set of skills to separate itself as it's not really great at anything. Yes it does things decent/well, but isn't an advanced job suppose to be, well.....advanced?

I think the whole Bard + Archer was a very innovative concept, but it doesn't lend it self too well currently to the dynamics of this game from what I've experienced so far. I'd love to hear the opinion of others.

I have a few suggestions as to how Bard could be more suited for it's natural role of being a supporting character:

• Creating a system that allows Bards to de-buff mobs by attack.
  
• Slow (Instant Ability that would be cast by successful arrow shot.)
• Evasion Down (Instant Ability that would be cast by successful arrow shot.)
• Defense Down (Instant Ability that would be cast by successful arrow shot.)
• Magic Attack Down (Instant Ability that would be cast by successful arrow shot.)
  *** To have the same Yin/Yang effect as party casted buffs, only have two buffs be readily able to be cast on a mob at one time.
  
• Having a wide selection of Harp + Bow options for Archer.
  ***For using a Harp + Bow there would be lower attack base, but would carry enfeeblement boosts for songs stats and effectiveness. This way Bard truly has the ability to be a versatile class within itself.
  
• Having the option of using a stringed instrument main-handed. You would sacrifice the option of doing attack damage for the ability to keep two songs active on party members for a 5 minutes duration instead of 3 minutes.

Whether these suggestions or others this thread may spawn make it into 1.2x or 2.x isn't really a concern for me. I'm in it for the long haul, and seeing as the development team is at least a bit over a month behind from their initially released schedule I don't mind waiting for 2.x for changes to go into effect.

Would love to hear everyone's two cents on the matter.

I think bard is more than just a "decent" damage dealer. Ones in my LS pull off pretty good numbers on boss fights.

As for the debuffing, that seems like it's going to be handled by a new class down the road. (Fencer/Red Mage probably the popular choice)

I don't play a bard and I'm not shooting down your ideas, just stating some things I've seen or expect.

Bard is a fine DD and you help the whole party's damage with the various songs, as well as being able to pinch heal/raise. You help raise the party's offense and defense. It feels like an extension of Archer without completely taking a huge 180 with it. Not that your ideas aren't good or anything but I would much prefer for them to branch off a new base class that is based on that and catered to a playstyle like that.

"Pure" support classes are nice in theory but end up extremely overpowered/necessary (FF11 brd) or totally useless. Spreading around the Support abilities among different classes makes sure everyone needs to work together and can bring different things to the table, as well as making sure you are kept busy when all buffs or debuffs are said and done.

That's honestly why I'm enjoying WHM and BRD so much in this game compared to 11 because if the fight is going fine i can contribute with damage instead of standing there doing nothing.

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Originally Posted by Leelya

[*]Standard DPS

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It's a bit more than standard. given the damage you can put out as a bard.
heavy shot > leaden shot> wide volley > peircing arrow > gloom arrow > bloodletter > barrage > heavy shot > quick knock > rain of death. all in 20-25 seconds = a pretty huge spike of damage in very little time and for dessert when you find all that has put your hate in the red you just use chameleon and laugh. i usuallythrow quelling strike somewhere in there depending on where my tp is at.

add to that the boost i can give to the rest of my party makes my brd pretty freaking awesome.

i originally hated the idea of brd i had visions of buffs with such short durations that would kill my dd but actually love the way it's turned out

I love BRD in its current state, but it is most assuredly a type of support class: very solid single-target DPS buffeted with songs. Others who play/played ARC may prefer a pure ranged DPS role, but I appreciate how much BRD can influence a fight positively or negatively. BV Paeon in particular is beautiful to watch when you have several melee DPS jobs in the party.

In a dungeon like AV, the BRD can serve an absolutely pivotal role as a co-leader with the tank, grabbing chests, swapping songs, pulling, etc.

The only adjustment I might want is some way of dealing a portion of elemental damage.

I feel an Attack/Magic attack song would be more useful than an accuracy + song considering a full party boost to accuracy is already in game when a group is formed. The 15minword ability feels mildly weak as well. Ballard of the magi, and the tp song are fine ^^

I agree that bard should have some more debuffing ability. Perhaps a class like red mage will be added that specializes in debuffs. However, there should be multiple classes that fill this role to add to overall balance imo.

It is an interesting question as to what exactly would distinguish a rdm class, since convert has been given to blm. I suppose refresh is still an option.

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Originally Posted by NickZenith

I feel an Attack/Magic attack song would be more useful than an accuracy + song considering a full party boost to accuracy is already in game when a group is formed. The 15minword ability feels mildly weak as well. Ballard of the magi, and the tp song are fine ^^

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Most players won't have accuracy as good as they used to before 1.21 since they fixed a bug in the accuracy calculations that was pretty much giving us perfect accuracy. Not to mention having the accuracy/maccuracy song up lets them go full on attack with gear. It's not useful all the time but still worth having when those situations arise.

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It is an interesting question as to what exactly would distinguish a rdm class, since convert has been given to blm. I suppose refresh is still an option.

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They could forgo following in FF11's footsteps and make Red Mage play like it used to in older games, giving it a wide variety of spells for versatility and Doublecast.

Personally, I feel the OP may be playing the wrong job if they are as unhappy with it as the post implies. I have played bard as my main class in several MMOs, and they tend to be a great utility class with a "Jack of all trades, master of none" play style to them. I feel that is the direction in FFXIV as well. Perhaps that style of play is simply not for the OP.

As of now, bard is solid damage output in itself. It raises the overall group damage exponentially, by giving BLM more sustainable MP regen, gives the other mellee classes more acc, thus more damage from not missing, as well as increasing ther TP flow, thus allowing more damage with weapon skills. We can raise in a pinch, support heal, AoE stun, and can give a HP boost before attacks like Prmals heavy AoEs slam the group. This all adds to our support and the nature of the class, the OP is attempting to make al of these support abilities appear to be a bad thing because we are not a debuffer.

I do not feel we need more debuffs. I believe bard is to be a "jack of all trades, master of none" support role, with another class will most likely be the debuff support. In general I prefer bard stays just like it is.

I don't like the idea of having more than one song up... how many songs do we have? how many can we have up? what percentage of our total songs is that..... even two songs = OP imho.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

I don't like the idea of having more than one song up... how many songs do we have? how many can we have up? what percentage of our total songs is that..... even two songs = OP imho.

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I think some songs should be ok to overlap and others that are op shouldn't. Swift song for instance i think should not wipe other songs.

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Originally Posted by carraway

I love BRD in its current state, but it is most assuredly a type of support class: very solid single-target DPS buffeted with songs. Others who play/played ARC may prefer a pure ranged DPS role, but I appreciate how much BRD can influence a fight positively or negatively. BV Paeon in particular is beautiful to watch when you have several melee DPS jobs in the party.

In a dungeon like AV, the BRD can serve an absolutely pivotal role as a co-leader with the tank, grabbing chests, swapping songs, pulling, etc.

The only adjustment I might want is some way of dealing a portion of elemental damage.

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Elemental arrows would be nice.

But then again no ones stopping you from making a mage-bard build. Possible, but it just doesn't compliment that your songs are buffs.

I'd glad people have weighed in with their own opinions on the matter. What I gather from the reading of everyone's thoughts is that they believe that Bard is either a really good dps still or a great supporting role character. This is essentially what I was asking that we be made more of. Having thm as a job that bard can pull abilities from is useless. Changing that scenario would better benefit bard being in either a supporting or dps role much better.

Don't get me wrong I like the job and all. It just appears to be all over the place in it's current state.

BRD is the only job that gets access to both Cure/Raise and Resonance... it's really useful so I wouldn't discount that all of THM's abilities are useless for BRD (Sanguine Rite is excellent too, and BRD is the only job that can AOE it). As the game progresses chances are we may see more cross-class abilities added to existing classes so we can see what happens.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Personally, I feel the OP may be playing the wrong job if they are as unhappy with it as the post implies. I have played bard as my main class in several MMOs, and they tend to be a great utility class with a "Jack of all trades, master of none" play style to them. I feel that is the direction in FFXIV as well. Perhaps that style of play is simply not for the OP.

As of now, bard is solid damage output in itself. It raises the overall group damage exponentially, by giving BLM more sustainable MP regen, gives the other mellee classes more acc, thus more damage from not missing, as well as increasing ther TP flow, thus allowing more damage with weapon skills. We can raise in a pinch, support heal, AoE stun, and can give a HP boost before attacks like Prmals heavy AoEs slam the group. This all adds to our support and the nature of the class, the OP is attempting to make al of these support abilities appear to be a bad thing because we are not a debuffer.

I do not feel we need more debuffs. I believe bard is to be a "jack of all trades, master of none" support role, with another class will most likely be the debuff support. In general I prefer bard stays just like it is.

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Although BLMs can go through their mana very quickly, they usually shouldn't due to the large amount of hate issues that they will gain. Also, you speak about how you can raise melee's accuracy and tp generation. You never said "or", you said "as well as", which implies that bard can do both those songs at once. Correct me if I'm wrong, but only one bard can have one of their songs on a target at a time. So unless your group has two bards, you cannot do as you say in a party. Also, you imply that Bards have an AOE stun in which they can use in a "pinch". That is also very highly unlikely. The AOE stun you speak of is the rein of death combo. This is a three way finisher combo on a three minute cooldown. Add in poor server response time and the fact that the second part of the combo, "quick knock", requires that you stand much closer to the mob, really makes this AOE stun nowhere near feasible as a "in a pinch" ability. I love playing my bard, but I do feel that there are areas that need improvement. I love that majority of our combos add some sort of debuff on the target, but I wish we would have some better debuffs for boss fights. Bloodletter is a great example of a weaponskill debuff for a boss.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

BRD is the only job that gets access to both Cure/Raise and Resonance... it's really useful so I wouldn't discount that all of THM's abilities are useless for BRD (Sanguine Rite is excellent too, and BRD is the only job that can AOE it). As the game progresses chances are we may see more cross-class abilities added to existing classes so we can see what happens.

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sanguin rite i find mostly useless on bard. primarily cos you dont get the damage reduction.
my cross crass class abilities are cure stoneskin sacred prism raise and resonance. and i typically suggest any bard to use the same.

Resonance is just to good to pass up. increases the range on your songs which can be usefull when mages are spread out. and it typically lets you raise people from a nice little safe spot.

Prism+Sanguine Rite can be an invaluable time-saver during AV/CC speedruns; I would never go without it.

the only thing i don't like about bard is how some people use it as an excuse to be an awful DD. say things like "im not DD im support" lol, bard is still more DD then anything else

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Originally Posted by Dzian

It's a bit more than standard. given the damage you can put out as a bard.
heavy shot > leaden shot> wide volley > peircing arrow > gloom arrow > bloodletter > barrage > heavy shot > quick knock > rain of death. all in 20-25 seconds = a pretty huge spike of damage in very little time and for dessert when you find all that has put your hate in the red you just use chameleon and laugh. i usuallythrow quelling strike somewhere in there depending on where my tp is at.

add to that the boost i can give to the rest of my party makes my brd pretty freaking awesome.

i originally hated the idea of brd i had visions of buffs with such short durations that would kill my dd but actually love the way it's turned out

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you should use barrage and quick know before the other skills so the cooldowns are refreshing while you use the other skills.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

the only thing i don't like about bard is how some people use it as an excuse to be an awful DD. say things like "im not DD im support" lol, bard is still more DD then anything else

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Thats true though i can put out awesome dps and keep buffs up on all the right people. once got called the best bard on the server by a group of people after someone parsed my brd doing 131 dps in a feast for fools. almost double any other dd in the group. though alot of that depends on time spent dead and moogles not using maximoogle. still it's nice to be complimented. i average between 80-100 at moogle though with time spent snging ballads and stoneskins so it's certainly a capable dd job.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

you should use barrage and quick know before the other skills so the cooldowns are refreshing while you use the other skills.

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i wasnt quoting any particular order of ability just pointing out the amount of damage you can put out in a short time. the order in which i pop my skills is dependant on timers

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Originally Posted by Bustercucumbers

Correct me if I'm wrong, but only one bard can have one of their songs on a target at a time. So unless your group has two bards, you cannot do as you say in a party.

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I can. I am unclear why you cannot. Our AoE on buffs has a limited range. Take ifrit battle for example. Generally you have healers on either side of the tank, the melee directly behind ifrit, and the ranged casters a distance behind ifrit. One can move over towards one healer cast BoM head over to the other and cast BoM. Now you have both healers rebuffed. Head back and cast BoM on the THMs/BLMs. In my last battle we had 2 PGLs who asked me to notify before I cast it, and they would step bak and get the buff themselves. Next, you step forward and buff the melee buff on the tank/melee. Keep a rotation of that nature and do what damage you can in the downtime. They love me for it. Its how a play my bard. Some may play differently, but I focus on support with damage as a secondary. I expect my support alows for the others to do enough additional damage to far out weigh and damage I may not do.

So yes, you can keep morethen one buff up. You simply cannot keep more then one up on the same player at one time.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

I can. I am unclear why you cannot. Our AoE on buffs has a limited range. Take ifrit battle for example. Generally you have healers on either side of the tank, the melee directly behind ifrit, and the ranged casters a distance behind ifrit. One can move over towards one healer cast BoM head over to the other and cast BoM. Now you have both healers rebuffed. Head back and cast BoM on the THMs/BLMs. In my last battle we had 2 PGLs who asked me to notify before I cast it, and they would step bak and get the buff themselves. Next, you step forward and buff the melee buff on the tank/melee. Keep a rotation of that nature and do what damage you can in the downtime. They love me for it. Its how a play my bard. Some may play differently, but I focus on support with damage as a secondary. I expect my support alows for the others to do enough additional damage to far out weigh and damage I may not do.

So yes, you can keep morethen one buff up. You simply cannot keep more then one up on the same player at one time.

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Please slowly reread the statement that you quoted. I said, "only one bard can have one of their songs on a target at a time." In easier terms to understand. I can not put more than one buff on a target. Also you bolded part of my statement out of context so it would make your argument sound. Please think things out slowly before you repost. Thank you in advance.

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Originally Posted by Bustercucumbers

Please slowly reread the statement that you quoted. I said, "only one bard can have one of their songs on a target at a time." In easier terms to understand. I can not put more than one buff on a target. Also you bolded part of my statement out of context so it would make your argument sound. Please think things out slowly before you repost. Thank you in advance.

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Whats your problem? all I did was explain how one bard can buff more then one buff depending on who needs it. Quote where I specifically said we can keep 2 buffs up on any one player. I said you can raise accuracyand give TP regineration. I never said anywhere in that post I can give both to one player at the same time.

I didn't quote anything out of context, you were trying to imply that I claimed to be able to put up more then one buff on one player, which I did not. Actually I did the opposite. I simply listed the buffs we have, and that its wise to spread them out to who needs them and use the limited AoE range to your parties benefit.

Perhaps you should read more slowly yourself sir.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Personally, I feel the OP may be playing the wrong job if they are as unhappy with it as the post implies. I have played bard as my main class in several MMOs, and they tend to be a great utility class with a "Jack of all trades, master of none" play style to them. I feel that is the direction in FFXIV as well. Perhaps that style of play is simply not for the OP.

As of now, bard is solid damage output in itself. It raises the overall group damage exponentially, by giving BLM more sustainable MP regen, gives the other mellee classes more acc, thus more damage from not missing, as well as increasing ther TP flow, thus allowing more damage with weapon skills. We can raise in a pinch, support heal, AoE stun, and can give a HP boost before attacks like Prmals heavy AoEs slam the group. This all adds to our support and the nature of the class, the OP is attempting to make al of these support abilities appear to be a bad thing because we are not a debuffer.

I do not feel we need more debuffs. I believe bard is to be a "jack of all trades, master of none" support role, with another class will most likely be the debuff support. In general I prefer bard stays just like it is.

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Yeah, you actually did. The word "or" would have suited the statement much better.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

I can. I am unclear why you cannot. Our AoE on buffs has a limited range. Take ifrit battle for example. Generally you have healers on either side of the tank, the melee directly behind ifrit, and the ranged casters a distance behind ifrit. One can move over towards one healer cast BoM head over to the other and cast BoM. Now you have both healers rebuffed. Head back and cast BoM on the THMs/BLMs. In my last battle we had 2 PGLs who asked me to notify before I cast it, and they would step bak and get the buff themselves. Next, you step forward and buff the melee buff on the tank/melee. Keep a rotation of that nature and do what damage you can in the downtime. They love me for it. Its how a play my bard. Some may play differently, but I focus on support with damage as a secondary. I expect my support alows for the others to do enough additional damage to far out weigh and damage I may not do.

So yes, you can keep morethen one buff up. You simply cannot keep more then one up on the same player at one time.

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You... are a little slow, aren't you? She was saying you can't put more than 1 buff on 1 person.. and you go off on some random tangent that has nothing to do with what she said... and then wonder why she called you out on it.... just wow.

@Bustercucumbers - I hope we can start putting more than 1 buff on each individual once we get real "instruments" it's the way it was in XI, if you didn't have an actual instrument you could only put 1 song on said player, but the second you got an instrument, each player could receive 2 buffs from 1 bard. d('.'

I just wish the buffs felt a bit more part of the archer aspect; i.e. we use a buff and then a particular combo might strengthen the buff or extend the buff or grant extra effects to the buff etc. Though that would be kind of difficult given how classes and jobs work, you can't exactly have weapon skill combos on the class purely built for the bard job.

I do like bard but the songs seem a bit 'stuck on' at times. (also if no one already mentioned it during the whole /thau subjob discussion, resonance also increases the range of your songs so you get sanguine and resonance from thau.)

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Originally Posted by Wevlum

I do like bard but the songs seem a bit 'stuck on' at times. (also if no one already mentioned it during the whole /thau subjob discussion, resonance also increases the range of your songs so you get sanguine and resonance from thau.)

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Good info.

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Originally Posted by Andvari

@Bustercucumbers - I hope we can start putting more than 1 buff on each individual once we get real "instruments" it's the way it was in XI, if you didn't have an actual instrument you could only put 1 song on said player, but the second you got an instrument, each player could receive 2 buffs from 1 bard. d('.'

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i'd think it's fairly safe to say it's not going to happen any time soon given that we only have like 3 songs to choose from.

if instruments do anything i would assume they simply increase potency or duration of active songs. 10% more mp from ballad when sung with an instrument or 30 seconds longer duration or something to that effect.

I hope BRD gets a song that boost ATK and M.ATK.

Should make everyone happy.

I'd rather stay with having 1 song per bard, since it means we have minimal downtime dedicated to buffing before we return to DD'ing. It would interrupt the flow too much. I dunno why people want to carry a ton of instruments either, that was easily the absolute worst thing about BRD in FF11. We will probably get BRD-specific bows/bowharps that affect songs.

I didn't know about Resonance working with songs, that will be extremely useful.

Something else some of you might not know: Battle Voice works with Swiftsong and makes your party move REALLY quickly, I think its even faster than Fists of Wind with the MNK AF boots. Should be useful for getting back to where you were in a dungeon if you wipe.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

I'd rather stay with having 1 song per bard, since it means we have minimal downtime dedicated to buffing before we return to DD'ing. It would interrupt the flow too much. I dunno why people want to carry a ton of instruments either, that was easily the absolute worst thing about BRD in FF11. We will probably get BRD-specific bows/bowharps that affect songs.

I didn't know about Resonance working with songs, that will be extremely useful.

Something else some of you might not know: Battle Voice works with Swiftsong and makes your party move REALLY quickly, I think its even faster than Fists of Wind with the MNK AF boots. Should be useful for getting back to where you were in a dungeon if you wipe.

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Yeah I tried to find info on it online and failed so just tested it out via partying someone and using it in Ul at various distances with and without resonance. ...that said not 100% sure if I'll save it a space on my action bar (cure, stoneskin, raise, prism, sanguine)

EDIT; Always niche situations I guess though

I always have Resonance set instead of Sanguine Rite since it's useful for getting an emergency heal/stoneskin on the tank vs. moogles and they are on the other side of the arena, or a Raise on someone that died in a bad spot. I'm actually not sure when Sanguine Rite would be useful since we have Ballad. Only thing I can think of is for Hellfire or Moogle Memento. MP is never an issue in the former, and in the latter I just do Battle Voice + Ballad when the group gathers.

Sanguine Rite isn't used for its MP restoration, but for its ability to prevent cast interruption on yourself and others in your party (with Sacred Prism). This can be invaluable in both AV and CC, where there are many opportunities for BLMs to be interrupted, and it saves time if the BRD can Prism+Sanguine Rite.

That is a good use for it. My group hasn't gotten up to speed running yet so we wait for Steel Cyclone before nuking but that will be a good thing to remember.

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Originally Posted by Andvari

You... are a little slow, aren't you? She was saying you can't put more than 1 buff on 1 person.. and you go off on some random tangent that has nothing to do with what she said... and then wonder why she called you out on it.... just wow.

@Bustercucumbers - I hope we can start putting more than 1 buff on each individual once we get real "instruments" it's the way it was in XI, if you didn't have an actual instrument you could only put 1 song on said player, but the second you got an instrument, each player could receive 2 buffs from 1 bard. d('.'

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You are a little slow aren't you? She was saying I said something I didn't. I know you can't put more then one buff on a person. She implied I said that when I did not. Turn about is fair play. I went further to explain it in detail hoe I use the limited range of buff AoE to buff seperatly in a fight (I specifically used my most recent ifrit battle)