Idea: Making Card Diverse and Reliable (Less RNG)

Hello everyone,

I want to share my idea for AST card.
So lets go directly to my idea.

First,
I want to present you the new effect on our major arcana.
The major arcana will be divided into: Astral Card and Umbral Card
Astral Card
All Astral Card have a 30 sec duration
All Astral Card focusing on increasing DPS
Additional effect: Granting 1 Solar Seal after using an Astral Card
The Balance
Increase Direct Hit of a target by 10%
The Spear
Increase Critical Hit of a target by 10%
The Arrow
Increase Determination of a target by 10%

Umbral Card
All Umbral Card have 15 sec duration
All Umbral Card focusing on increasing survivability.
Additional effect: Granting 1 Lunar Seal after using an Umbral Card
The Bole
Increase Def and Magic Def of a target by 15%
The Ewer
Increase Target healing receive by 15% (from both spell and ability)
The Spire
Increase target Max HP by 15%, recover the amount of HP that increased (similar to WAR Thrill of Battle)



Second,
Now it is time to reveal the new minor arcana card effect.
The minor arcana now become an AOE card, apply to the party member around you.
Lord of Crown
Focusing more in increasing DPS.
Increase everyone damage by 5%
Duration: 15 sec
Lady of Crown
Focusing more in increasing survivability.
Reduce everyone damage taken by 10%
Duration: 15 sec



Third, now I will explain the skill that related to the card system
Draw LV. 30
Same as current system with cooldown 30 sec

Play LV. 30
Same as current system
Additional effect: Recover 5% MP upon using the card on self or party member

Undraw
Same as current system
Additional effect: Recover 10% MP upon undraw

Redraw LV. 40
Draw an opposite card from your deck
- Held an Astral Card -> Redraw -> obtain a random Umbral Card
- Held an Umbral Card -> Redraw -> obtain a random Astral Card
Cooldown: 30 sec (No Charge)

Minor Arcana LV. 60
Convert major arcana into minor arcana:
Convert an Astral Card into Lord of Crown, requires/consumes 3 Solar Seal
Convert an Umbral Card into Lady of Crown, requires/consumes 3 Lunar Seal
Cooldown: 15 sec

Sleeve Draw LV. 70
Draw a random major arcana card and reset the cooldown of both redraw and minor arcana
Grant 3 Solar Seal and 3 Lunar Seal
Cooldown: 120 sec

Divination LV. 80
Extend the duration of your card buff by 15 sec (only work for card buff)
Cooldown: 180 sec


Ok that's all. What do you think about this idea?
Also, let me know if you have other Idea :)

Note:
Solar Seal and Lunar Seal have a different slot.
Similar to RDM white mana and black mana

Current seal slot is all mixed up at top of our card gauge
The new one will have a different slot.
Example:
3 slot for solar seal in the right of card gauge
and 3 slot for lunar seal in the left of card gauge
The seal also independent to each other (minor arcana only consume one type of seal which depend on the major arcana card)

Why would I ever want to use an umbral card? Even if the mitigation is bonkers OP, each card that doesn’t prevent a lethal blow or GCD heal is a card better used for DPS, which they will all be because amongst the tanks and healers we have enough mitigation and oGCD heals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Why would I ever want to use an umbral card? Even if the mitigation is bonkers OP, each card that doesn’t prevent a lethal blow or GCD heal is a card better used for DPS, which they will all be because amongst the tanks and healers we have enough mitigation and oGCD heals.

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What you said is true if every one in the party know how to play their job and avoid unnecessary damage (especially tank and healer).
In a different situation (PUG, new player, undergeared, etc.), umbral card can be a better option for survivability.
We have to make a decision between offensive buff or defensive buff because you cant use everything.
This will make AST gameplay more interesting and showing more of its support side (not restricted to only boost DPS).

Maybe you have other idea to address this?
Please share it if you have one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

Maybe you have other idea to address this?
Please share it if you have one.

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Yeah. Bag randomisation. Divination becomes a 180s party buff which draws a card automatically every 30s. The order of the cards you get is random (though can be manipulated through shuffle, spread, etc), but you always get all 6.
If you’re guaranteed to get all 6 cards each randomisation cycle, there’s no more competing for a best card.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Yeah. Bag randomisation. Divination becomes a 180s party buff which draws a card automatically every 30s. The order of the cards you get is random (though can be manipulated through shuffle, spread, etc), but you always get all 6.
If you’re guaranteed to get all 6 cards each randomisation cycle, there’s no more competing for a best card.

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Thanks for sharing your idea. I still have question about your idea

Could you explain about the card effect?
Will it use current card effect?
Or will it have diverse card effect like the old card?

And how about Draw skill? Will we still have it? Or we just let divination do the work (in 180 sec CD)?

Can we still apply aoe buff via royal road or other skill? Maybe DPS buff or devensive buff?

How about minor arcana?

From what i understand is you want to use the old card system which i think still better than current card system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

Thanks for sharing your idea. I still have question about your idea...

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Balance: +10% Damage, 20s duration. RR: 2x effect
Arrow: +10% Haste, 25s duration. RR: 1/2 effect, AoE
Spear: +5% Crit and DHit, 30s duration. RR: 2x Duration
Bole: +10% Mitigation, 10s duration. RR: 2x Effect
Spire: +20% Healing Received, 15s Duration. RR: 1/2 effect, AoE
Ewer: +10% Shield, 20s duration. RR: 2x Duration
Buff Extenders return. Shorter duration cards are better than longer only if extended.

Draw removed, Divination grants the cards.
Royal Road returns, as detailed above. Maybe AoE should be 1/3 instead of 1/2 though.
I’m not sure what to do about Minor Arcana. Maybe have overwritten (from divination’s 30 draw) cards turn into MA. Damage cards would become Lord, upgrading Malefic to Comet. Mitigation cards would become Lady, a hefty single-use healing (ability or spell) buff.

There would also be a new UI element which shows the order that cards are drawn in. Known/Shuffled cards have their icons, unknown are blank. Maybe sleeve draw redraws 3 last used cards?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Draw removed, Divination grants the cards.
Royal Road returns, as detailed above. Maybe AoE should be 1/3 instead of 1/2 though.
I’m not sure what to do about Minor Arcana. Maybe just turn cards into a nuke that also restores MP?

There would also be a new UI element which shows the order that cards are drawn in. Known/Shuffled cards have their icons, unknown are blank. Maybe sleeve draw redraws 3 last used cards?

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So its similar with the old card system sound interesting.
If i understand correctly, we can only get cards every 180 sec (divination) and it draw automaticaly 1 card every 30 sec.
But how many card we can get from divination? Why not using the normal draw?

If you still have shuffle/redraw, you mostly want Balance, Spear, and Arrow (so still fishing).
The difference is that you already know the card after shuffle/redraw.

Based on this design, I think AST will be a burst/limited buff type of healer.
So you can only give buff in a limited window of time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

So its similar with the old card system sound interesting.
If i understand correctly, we can only get cards every 180 sec (divination) and it draw automaticaly 1 card every 30 sec.
But how many card we can get from divination? Why not using the normal draw?

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Divination would give 1 card on use, and 5 more over the next 150s. All 6 would be given over the 180s cycle

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

If you still have shuffle/redraw, you mostly want Balance, Spear, and Arrow (so still fishing).
The difference is that you already know the card after shuffle/redraw.

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Shuffle wouldn’t change the card, only the order of the cards that haven’t been used yet.
For instance:
No Divination: ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Divination: (Bole) ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Shuffle: (Ewer) ??? ??? Bole ??? ???
Play/RR: Ewer | (Arrow) ??? Bole ??? ???
Shuffle: Ewer | (Balance) Arrow ??? ??? Bole

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Shuffle wouldn’t change the card, only the order of the cards that haven’t been used yet.
For instance:
No Divination: ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Divination: (Bole) ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Shuffle: (Ewer) ??? ??? Bole ??? ???
Play/RR: Ewer | (Arrow) ??? Bole ??? ???
Shuffle: Ewer | (Balance) Arrow ??? ??? Bole

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Now I understand about your card system.
I believe you dont have charge for shuffle right (with 30 sec CD)?
Our goal here will be AOE Balance, Spear, or Arrow.
Mostly Bole, Spire, and Ewer will be use for RR or minor arcana (similar to SB).

For the DPS cards:

Keep in mind that the three dps effects you chose would set in stone the best targets you have the moment you create the party and will lead to the "post your stats" meta. The 10% crit buff will be competely worthless if I'm running a min-crit BLM. You would have to know the stats of your party members to make good use of the cards.

Additionally, as the expansion progresses and crit becomes more impactful, the other two cards will become weaker in comparison, leading to the same "not Balance, sadface" feeling you had in Stormblood.

I understand that you chose this for diversity. But in terms of target choice for optimization and overall gameplay, the raw damage increase we have now is better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

What you said is true if every one in the party know how to play their job and avoid unnecessary damage (especially tank and healer).
In a different situation (PUG, new player, undergeared, etc.), umbral card can be a better option for survivability.
We have to make a decision between offensive buff or defensive buff because you cant use everything.
This will make AST gameplay more interesting and showing more of its support side (not restricted to only boost DPS).

Maybe you have other idea to address this?
Please share it if you have one.

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Let's say you want/need one of the Umbral cards for mitigation. You have 33% chance to get the one you want. Your currency is dps and you're paying for a chance to gamble for a card that may or may not be useful to you. The issue with your Umbral cards (and old AST support cards) is that they are random, therefore unreliable, and probably too weak. I don't know why you chose a 15s duration for Umbral Cards.

A defensive card can be a dps increase if it results in extra dps gcds for the healers. But due to the unreliability, this will never be "a thing". Balancing this system would be a nightmare, which is most likely one of the reasons why they changed it in the first place.

You're going to have this problem on any system that has a dps vs support dichotomy coupled with randomness.


I do like your Astral/Umbral split idea, but the way I'd prefer it is by keeping the melee vs ranged dichotomy we have now and having the Minor Arcanas be the support cards. The default would be dps cards with a melee vs ranged dichotomy and an option for support cards. The support cards would have to be very strong ("save healing gcds" strong) in order for them to be used over the basic dps cards you draw every 30 sec. In other words, put the randomness into the dps cards and the reliability into the support cards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

I understand that you chose this for diversity. But in terms of target choice for optimization and overall gameplay, the raw damage increase we have now is better.

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True, raw damage increase card will make optimisation and balancing easier.
Then, why don't we just get rid of major arcana completely?
Will it be much easier to only have Lord and Lady? (consistent % dmg increase, easier balancing and optimisation).
Shuffle/redraw will give the opposite card (Lord -> Lady, Lady -> Lord) which ensure every DPS get the optimum card.
And make divination a regular cooldown so it always have the same % damage increase and eliminating the seal fishing.
So the job will have almost no RNG

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Let's say you want/need one of the Umbral cards for mitigation. You have 33% chance to get the one you want. Your currency is dps and you're paying for a chance to gamble for a card that may or may not be useful to you. The issue with your Umbral cards (and old AST support cards) is that they are random, therefore unreliable, and probably too weak. I don't know why you chose a 15s duration for Umbral Cards.

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I already explained how to control the RNG:
Shuffle/Redraw LV. 40
Draw an opposite card from your deck
- Held an Astral Card -> Redraw -> obtain a random Umbral Card
- Held an Umbral Card -> Redraw -> obtain a random Astral Card
Cooldown: 30 sec (No Charge)

This will minimize the RNG. I want player to have a choice in card usage (offensive or defensive).
I just want a decision making flow maybe like Aetherflow: do we use ED to gain DPS and MP? or do we use it for healing?
So it become more like: do we buff the party damage? or do we reduce the incoming damage which can save someone from death?
This making card usage more situational and pushing us to adapt faster which I think exciting.

Other option will be deleting all major arcana card and focusing in minor arcana:
Lord of Crown: Increase target damage dealt by 10% for 15 sec
Lady of Crown: Reduce target damage taken by 20% for 15 sec
Honestly, I don't like it but seems a better choice for the sake of balancing the class

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

I already explained how to control the RNG:
Shuffle/Redraw LV. 40
Draw an opposite card from your deck
- Held an Astral Card -> Redraw -> obtain a random Umbral Card
- Held an Umbral Card -> Redraw -> obtain a random Astral Card
Cooldown: 30 sec (No Charge)

This will minimize the RNG. I want player to have a choice in card usage (offensive or defensive).
I just want a decision making flow maybe like Aetherflow: do we use ED to gain DPS and MP? or do we use it for healing?
So it become more like: do we buff the party damage? or do we reduce the incoming damage which can save someone from death?
This making card usage more situational and pushing us to adapt faster which I think exciting.

Other option will be deleting all major arcana card and focusing in minor arcana:
Lord of Crown: Increase target damage dealt by 10% for 15 sec
Lady of Crown: Reduce target damage taken by 20% for 15 sec
Honestly, I don't like it but seems a better choice for the sake of balancing the class

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Yes, you can control the RNG in the sense that you can get an Umbral Card whenever you want. You do not control which Umbral Card you get, which is why I said 1/3. Because if you want an Umbral Card, most of the time the one you want will be The Bole.

You can put the RNG into the dps increase cards in the form of melee (Astral) vs ranged (Umbral).
And you can put the consistency in support cards in the form of Minor Arcana.

So to put this as an analogy to Aetherflow: do we use this astral/umbral card to gain DPS? Or do we turn it into a mitigation card?
It's not quite the same kind of tradeoff, though. Lack of Aetherflow will lock the SCH out of its most powerful abilities, whereas AST will be just fine without the mitigation from the card.

Because AST's kit can currently handle anything without any support from cards, I don't see many scenarios where someone would choose to exercise this option. Or any choice where dps increase is an option.

I thought this could work when I wrote my previous post, but nah. I don't think anything will work as long as the support cards compete with dps increase cards. So my next idea would be to leave the dps increase buffs to divination only and make every Major Arcana a support card. It would essentially become its own minigame and it's purpose would be to make your life easier.

As for Divination, you can rework it into a tiered system that depends on the number of seals, rather than the type (e.g. 7%/8%/9%/10%). You have 4 draws between Divinations. Use them all and you get the 10%.

This is still lazy, though. It's just shifting the balancing work to the healing side of things. These card buffs will still have to be balanced with the other healers. I don't know ...

But I hope our exchange illustrates how difficult this is. Job design and balance is not as trivial as a large part of the population frequenting this forum would have you believe.