This is not a thread about whether or not more advanced rotations are what healers need, but how they could be implemented.
So, let’s pretend that we all agree that the best way forwards is for healers to get more complex DPS rotations. Slightly easier than tanks, and affecting their healing or other class subsystems.
Which ways could this be achieved? My thoughts are as follows:
WHM - MP Management
WHM at current is the God of mana efficiency with Thin Air and Assize, as well as the Afflatus Spells and Regen.
This could be expanded upon by making Stone/Glare cost more, but giving them a Water/Osmose Spell that, while weaker, restores MP.
To tie it into healing, maybe Cure2 and Medica1 could also feed the blood lily, but their inherent MP cost would make them further damage sacrifices than the corresponding Afflatus skill.
It could be expanded upon by giving WHM a stance that drained MP but guaranteed Direct Hits. This would also make PIE and SPS more interesting for WHM.
SCH - Self-Buffs & Resources
SCH used to be the king of DoTs, but their healing identity is all about oGCD Skills, which doesn’t really mesh well with an emphasis of ongoing damage. So instead we look at Aetherflow and Strategems.
Scholar could use more ties to the strategising lore identity it has, so I’m thinking more Aetherflow skills that don’t heal, but instead reduce incoming damage while buffing Scholar’s own (makes for more interesting dumps than energy drain). Eye for an Eye as well as Virus are old skills that could make a return as Aetherflows, and Soil could restore a portion of damage taken instead of being flat regen. These skills would give Scholar a ‘Strategem’ buff that increases damage (maybe crit rate for healing too?)
I dunno. Scholar is in a really weird place right now, and doesn’t really tie into its old lore or previous incarnations.
AST - Proc & Weaving Management
AST is currently the movement and weaving king thanks to its 1.5s cast time on Malefic, and needs an involved rotation less than the other healers due to the busywork in managing cards. AST will be the lightest change of the bunch.
2.5s Malefic returns, but so does insta-cast Stella. Combust ticks would have a 50% chance to upgrade Stella into Comet (stacking like ruin4), which deals the same/more than Malefic.
This could be expanded by having held cards giving Malefic an extra effect (maybe MP for Lunar seals, damage for Solar seals, mitigation for Celestial seals?) under the guise of Geomancy spells.
NEXT - DoT Management
We need a 4th healer, and we have 1 GCD focused healer, and 2 oGCD focused healers. DoTs work with GCD healing, and could facilitate a plague doctor, chemist, or biologist type aesthetic.
Multiple DoTs with varying lengths, Thundercloud procs to keep timings variable? Healing GCDs used could contribute to the length or strength of a DoT as a return on the lost damage Spell.
I welcome any feedback people have about these suggestions.
How to go about More Involved DPS Rotations.
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09-12-2019, 09:27 PMYusiKhaHow to go about More Involved DPS Rotations.
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09-12-2019, 11:32 PMRaylazer114th Healer...Quote:
Originally Posted by YusiKha
GCD Kit....
Damage over Time.....
DoTs tied to heals or utility in some form...
Combine that with your suggestion change for SCH's Soil and I'd say thats a solid Timemage kit. ;) -
09-13-2019, 12:25 AMtesni_g
I agree that SCH is in a really weird place right now with lore. My first thought for them is that I don't want to see another Aetherflow ability. We already have enough of those and enough ways to spend points. With each new addition, one more thing in our toolkit becomes nonviable, because we can't do it all and something has to give (or not get used).
For SCH, I would really like to see a second dot, perhaps a gcd spell with a cooldown for burst phases. Add a buff to Ruin II for more comfortable weaving, and a proc to watch for either on dot ticks or Broil cast, that adds a potency buff to the next Broil or Ruin II cast. Nothing major, really, just something to watch for. SCH abilities have such a prepared, organized feel to them, so a little RNG would break up the monotony of broil spam.
AST--I'm reluctant giving up a quick malefic for a second nuke. The only intact redeeming features of AST in 5.x are its mobility and weaving. Every direct cast AST has is shorter than the GCD, by a larger margin than the other two healers (Glare, Holy and Broil have a full GCD cast time, and their other direct heals have less breathing room between cast and recast). Without a full rework on AST ability management, there's no room in its kit for another button, and there's especially no room in its rotation for a spell they can't weave.
AST needs a way to throw cards at enemies. It's ridiculous that the Warrior of Light can do everything we've done in the MSQ and we can't figure out how to do that (especially since we "forgot" between SB and ShB). The WoL who mains AST needs a full party of Scions to get anything done. That's.... super powerful. Yeah.
MP management is in a weird place right now. They made MP entirely a personal responsibility for healers, and outside of rezzing or excessive healing, MP is a nonissue for WHM. I am hesitant to drain mana as a dps mechanic, though, because of how much our personal damage output is already determined by the people we play with. If rez locks me out of my burst phase or using abilities, I'm gonna resent somebody.
An mp restraint on core mechanics is a penalty the healer pays for playing with inexperienced/apathetic groups.
I'd like to see that viable water spell, though, and maybe a mechanic that changes the GCD speed (a la Step and Overheated), the WHM can fire off four or five Glares at 1.5 second cast. CLERIC STANCE in any iteration. Plus all the other abilities that have disappeared throughout expansions. And some interactivity between buttons--say, casting Blood Lily during Stance or Temperance debuffs the boss with a small damage vuln up? Something like casting that viable water spell gives a potency buff to casting/refreshing Dia. I'd also love an off global ability that can damage or heal depending on target, on a shortish cooldown. A great prog tool that transforms cleanly into optimized deeps for familiar content. -
09-14-2019, 04:57 AMGaethan_Tessula
I've posted this a bunch of times, but for WHM an intermediate lily step that allows existing moves to be upgraded via a new oGCD would nearly be good enough alongside a useful version of Fluid Aura. It expands the current optimization theory that healing lilies do, but could be applied to damaging spells. Get a 2nd DoT back via upgraded Aero/Dia to (Holy) Tornado, mini misery with upgrade Stone/Glare to (Holy) Quake, redesigned Fluid Aura upgraded to Flood, etc.
Is still easy to introduce players to, can be delayed for needed healing w/o DPS loss because of how long it takes to overcap lilies, can provide additional healing to be palatable to different play styles, can keep WHM tied to the GCD design-wise (most of the upgraded spells/abilities would be GCD based), builds off WHM's added system, and can bridge WHM's old semi-druidic and new holy light priest aesthetics. -
09-14-2019, 04:22 PMDiznypKC
I’ve actually been working on a series of redesigns for each of the healers, tailored to their lore. Maybe now is the time to start sharing them.
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09-14-2019, 05:55 PMElladie
I really don't need or want more complex rotations, thanks. I play healers to avoid 'rotations' and I'm very happy with where my SCH main is right now. There is quite enough challenge for me in dealing with huge dungeon pulls and boss mechanics, I don't want 'more complex rotations' to deal with as well. I'm happy to admit being a casual, averagely-skilled player, but so are 80% plus of the players I encounter. Remove demanding mechanics and huge pulls and then, yeah, sure, complex rotation away. At the moment I'm lucky to manage a few AOW each pull in between watching the tank's HP plummet and panicking about the BLM who just stood in Bad.
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09-14-2019, 06:30 PMDiznypKCI’m fairly certain the OP’s idea behind this is to give the classes something that’s seemingly more complex, but in reality wouldn’t affect the gameplay enough to where it was no longer accessible to players like yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elladie
Think of it as the DPS “rotation” as more engaging instead of complex.
Plus, this is all theoretical and would never be instituted since none of us actually work for the game. So, we’re really just having a bit of fun, and you don’t have to worry at all about it. Just enjoy your main and leave us to our imaginings. -
09-14-2019, 07:15 PMYusiKhaQuote:
Originally Posted by Elladie
I appreciate you reading the first two sentences of my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by YusiKha
This is an attempt to add as few skills/traits possible, while also increasing the skill ceiling for healers at top level of healing so it's more than just "Stand Still, Refresh DoT, and spam Nuke".
While I understand that many healers don't like the responsibilities of doing damage as well as healing, they are free to ignore any additional DPS skills like they already do. -
09-14-2019, 10:12 PMGrimGale
I don't think healers need more complex dps rotations, but rather new skills and traits expanding on their secondary identities.
In WHM's case it would translate to more skills that do damage and heal at the same time. oGCD's to heal or damage to weave with healing or damaging spells.
WHM's identity of the nuker would benefit from a playstyle that weaves damage and healing together. No utility translates to huge personal dps.
AST doesn't need more dps tools, but rather new ways to expand on her buffs. Maybe a revamp of royal road, time dilation and new card mechanics so that the player truly feels an impact everytime he draws a card.
SCH would be the debuffer/enfeebler of the three. Have its ocd's no longer consume AF but rather fey gauge. Then use AF to apply debuffs that either reduce damage done or increase damage taken to a single target. Like a Scan ability that'd reveal weakpoints. -
09-15-2019, 05:45 AMWawachume
I also play healers to avoid "rotation", but I define that as complexity derived from arbitrary interactions between abilities. I'm happy to have more damage skills as long as my gameplay is still more about problem-solving than about trying to manage my own spells and cast them in the right order or whatever. DoT and debuff management is something I would enjoy, because it gives me a job to do and not a rotation to manage.
I'd rather do it the other way around and have the debuffs use the faerie gauge. Heals are more critical for a healer than debuffs, and I'd rather not have them gated behind a resource that takes as long to build as the faerie gauge.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimGale
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09-15-2019, 09:46 AMGrimGale
Well that can also be adjusted. Maybe applying debuffs could give extra FG, or maybe crits from your adlo and physick could also increase fairy gauge. Or everytime Fairy uses embrace she gains fg too.
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09-15-2019, 04:57 PMArchwizard
With regards to creating more complexity with Healer DPS rotations, this big thing isn't necessarily in "how" to do it, but rather in how "much" to do it. Bear in mind that regardless of the number of buttons you're hitting, you will ideally do less damage than any DPS on the team (not simply for balance reasons, but so the overall rDPS loss when you stop to heal isn't bigger than letting your lowest DPS die).
Set up too high of a skill hurdle for too little of a reward, and you end up with extremely busy yet low-performing jobs like Ninja.
So, I would like to propose thus:
1) Tie some elements of the healing side of the kit into their core DPS rotation.
There are multiple ways to go about this.
The most direct route would be to follow the example of White Mage's Holy skill, which inflicts a brief but potent detriment on enemies it affects, drastically increasing the tank's survival for a brief period through the healer's direct intervention. You could give similar tools to SCH and AST's respective AoEs, like a Slow on Gravity or... something for Art of War. Or to be less derivative, have Broil inflict damage down (by aiming at the target's weaponry), Glare inflict Blind, or Combust curse the target somehow.
Alternately, as OP notes, another aspect of this could be having DPS abilities for resource management. Cast Stone/Glare to speed up Lilies, cast Malefic to regain MP, cast Broil to speed up CDs or drum up procs, etc.
All of the above provide tools where even though you're not directly healing, it doesn't mean you're not contributing to healing or survivability in some way, so nobody is allowed to complain you shot the boss instead of throwing them a Cure. (They'll do it anyway, but this way you can say "I needed MP" or "I just saved your life and got more out of that than a Cure but go off".)
2) Create high-risk, high-reward DPS tools for each healer.
I don't just mean "high risk" in the same way getting greedy with a Stone/Glare means more hits on the tank. I mean have potent DPS tools that actively compete with the healing tools you have within the kit.
For instance, having a damage skill that consumes Lilies as a White Mage -- you're consuming resources that are used for potent and expensive healing in order to dole out more damage. You could do the same thing for SCH or AST by having damage skills that share CDs with their healing oGCDs, creating scarcity to encourage the use of their GCD heals.
Alternatively, giving a "Cosmic Alignment" buff to AST or "Press the Advantage" to SCH that increases their damage slightly but cripples their healing until it ends, like the old old old Cleric Stance.
Why? Because this way you can set your own skill ceiling by choosing how cautiously you want to play.
3) Give back the ability to spread DoTs in AoE.
Fairly self explanatory. Our AoE rotations consist either of spamming one attack and maybe a CD, or manually multidotting. The former is even more boring and the latter is painful, especially in the case where you have to heal the tank between casts.
You could even give healers abilities that have the Thunder 2/4 treatment, where they're mutually exclusive with other DoTs. Point is, let them spread so we have more to do and less time wasted doing it.
Now, that being said, I have some different ideas than OP as to the "how" for existing healers.
WHM: The last thing our lovely mage needs is more MP recovery. At present between Lily heals, Thin Air and oGCD heals, it's so good at eliminating costs that I can press LD maybe once per fight if I'm playing badly.
That said, I'm not entirely sure what WHM could use. A Lily spender to attack with? Another oGCD attack?
SCH: To the contrary, I actually think we're ignoring that SCH once WAS the DoT-focused attacker amongst our healers, until all Miasma effects, Shadowflare and Bane were removed from its kit. Most were fire-and-forget, but you still had to manage with an extra DoT and without SMN's Tri-Disaster.
I would almost be willing to suggest a proc of some sort as well for Ruin II, though that would just piggyback off of Ruin IV for SMN.
I could also suggest throwing some counter-attack effects on the tank -- sort of like Eye for an Eye, but more literal Spikes effects or even straight-up Reflect, use tactically and time the cast perfectly to slap a boss in the face with its own tankbuster.
AST: Meanwhile, this is the perfect repository for self-buffing skills. Alternately, for damage buffs in general; I have half a mind to say AST's damage contribution should largely come from the time spent applying buffs to higher DPS individuals. Of course that would be no less boring, exhausting, and unhelpful for solo content.
Funnily enough, AST is also the healer I would say is most in need of MP management skills, especially with the losses of Ewer and Lady of Crowns.
Personally with regards to a fourth healer... I admit I'm biased since I have tried to push Necromancer as a battle healer, but at the same time, I think having the devs work on a job whose kit is "deal damage in order to heal" might give them some needed perspective on the damage tools available to other healers, much as working on Gunbreaker gave them perspective on how to balance existing tanks. -
09-16-2019, 05:26 PMLola_bunny
I like the idea of making the dps a bit more intelligent but my only concern would be for the small percent of actually intensive healing fights. Just talking about my limited experience in high end content with AST (and I realize give how clunky the card system works now not the best example) but when dodging mechanics, making sure no one is dying, trying to keep combust up and active, checking the tank, it's easy to forget about managing my cards. So I would be concerned either having a dps rotation or more involving dps abilities in general will be another thing to think about and keep tabs on during fights.
I'm torn on it on the whole, it would give the classes a higher skill ceiling but that would also bring elitism in spades to the high end content where there's already more than enough there. You can't perfectly optimize get kicked. A tad hyperbolic and worrying about what if scenarios to be fair. I'm also being a bit honest about my own abilities, I want to do and learn the end game content so I'd be hesitant about adding complexity as It'd make it more difficult for me to learn the fights and keep optimized. My hesitation around upping the thinking involved when healing aside they all need a bit something. They need to be more than just okay. -
09-16-2019, 06:30 PMBillythepancakeI've raided on Stormblood with SCH, whose DPS kit was quite a bit more involved than we have now, and honestly, it's not that bad to keep up with. While you're learning the fight, sure you'll drop something here or there because you have so much new information flying at you, by that goes for every class. Besides,imo, that's the fun part. Learning to juggle all your dots and everything else on top of doing mechanics and keeping people alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lola_bunny
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09-16-2019, 09:27 PMYusiKhaA blind for AoW?Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
My plan was for Stone/Glare to become more expensive (600-800mp per cast) so that WHM would have more mana issues just going through its nukespam. This would facilitate the need for an on-demand ‘gimme mp!’ button that would also allow you to weave at will (an issue WHM still faces). The addition of essentially Darkside would further push WHM through MP economics questions. Afflatus and Regen’s MP superiority would be much more impactful by reducing the amount of water/osmose casts, even if Cure2/Medica fed the Blood Lily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
WHM would have a safety pick argument in their infinite MP and efficient healing GCD usage. Compared to SCH’s mitigation+shielding, and AST’s larger shields.
My reasoning was that despite SCH’s past, many/strong DoTs would be better for a GCD focused healer because of their weaker nuke. DoTs could work for SCH, though, if they were the only way to weave without clipping a cast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
Reflecting things like tank busters wouldn’t work as SCH’s damage would differ depending on the encounter. I would like to see Aetherflow moves to a mitigation/damage resource and more emphasis put on the fairy for actually healing.
A way that the counter could work is an AF skill you place on someone with Galvanise. If galvanise breaks before the duration is up, the attacker gets hurt. If catalyse also breaks, the damage increases. (Maybe be able to deploy it too?)
Yeah AST needs something for its mana. Though for the rest of its kit everybody has their own ideas, massively varying. I do want Comet, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
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09-16-2019, 09:58 PMGrimGale
Well AST is the healer that doesn't need more involved dps mechanics. I'd go full cards with AST if I were to redesign it. I'd shorten Draw CD as to allow the AST to constantly fling cards at party members and improve on the rng and buff manipulation, so that they'd be kept busy with buffs management and healing.
That way AST would truly feel unique. -
09-16-2019, 10:41 PMDzianThe problem though is rotations generally aren't engaging anyway. Just the same skills in the same order time and time and time again.Quote:
Originally Posted by DiznypKC
Pressing 12 3 1 2 3 1 2 4 12 3 123. Is really no more engaging than 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1.
Doesnt matter what fight your in or which boss your up against it's still the same rotation as every other fight or boss...
Rotations aren't fun or engaging especially when so many of the skills and buttons jobs have to press are literally just "busy work" -
09-16-2019, 11:01 PMYusiKha“Main Class Paladin 80” yeah that makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzian
I’d rather busywork than the ability to play The Sims between 2.5s broil casts -
09-16-2019, 11:09 PMBillythepancakeThe more you have to manage the more likely you are too drop something, making it more rewarding when you don't drop anything and giving off a better feeling of satisfaction. I'd rather have busy work than just spaming 1 over and over again. I don't need much, 3 dots and something like shadowflare (maybe not a ground target though) and I'd be fine with SCH dps wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzian
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09-17-2019, 12:24 AMDzian
I'd rather have a few buttonss that actually do something. Rather than buttons just there to keep you busy but dont actually change the fight
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09-17-2019, 12:29 AMBillythepancakeAnd dots to keep track of is "something" enough. Multiple timers to watch is all I need from a healer rotation, which is what we had before ShB and I was plenty fine with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzian
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09-17-2019, 12:31 AMArchwizard
AST... I want to say could use more weaving tools, though I know the ideal is using Light Speed on CD, but you draw more often than LS comes up. Your only instant tools are Aspected Benefic and Combust, the former being expensive while the latter contributes nothing to DPS if used too frequently since the initial hit doesn't even deal damage.
I know a revival of Stella is in the running, but I would like to see something Moon-oriented on AST, just as an offset to Helios. -
09-17-2019, 12:32 AMLambdafishYES!Quote:
Originally Posted by YusiKha
GCD focused DoT healer that may or may not use Mix as it's primary gimmick? Give me CHM square! -
09-17-2019, 01:28 AMArchwizardTo be honest, I'd much rather see Geomancer added as a full job. With WHM moving away from elemental effects, there's plenty of room for a caster DPS with access to the spells it never used (like Quake, Flood or Tornado).Quote:
Originally Posted by YusiKha
While SCH's theme is admittedly very muddled, its questline does fir a Plague Doctor aesthetic, and Biolysis is about as close as you can get to biology without introducing science to a fantasy world.
I would like to see more skills oriented around its medical and tactical knowledge rather than its faerie "nurse", but all the same, introducing another job with an overlapping theme would only serve to take away from that.
As for Chemist...
So, an apparently little-known fact is that Yoshi-P admitted in an interview that they originally wanted to introduce Chemist in Heavensward... but could never figure out how to balance the Mix mechanic. For that reason we ended up with AST, whose card system was designed to have results somewhat similar to Mix.
Were CHM to be introduced now, Mix would likely end up as a clone or mix of either NIN Mudras or AST Seals. Either way it would mean a lot of time dedicated to its oGCD skills, meaning a setup more like AST's I'd wager.
Plus let's be honest, we'd get bored of the same three throw animations over an over, and there is a veritable dearth of ideas for mechanics outside of Mix.
AST says hi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raylazer11
Still has Light Speed, Gravity, Regen and some delayed action effects. Losing one stun doesn't make it less of a Time Mage analogue, and as I said above, introducing a healer with an overlapping theme will not help either of them any.
Possible. I've suggested it before myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by YusiKha
Personally I'd like to either get some explanation of what Art of War is supposed to be, or just a replacement with something that has more defined thematic elements (cough Miasma 2 cough Meltdown).
... which would automatically make attacking less appealing as a White Mage.Quote:
My plan was for Stone/Glare to become more expensive (600-800mp per cast) so that WHM would have more mana issues just going through its nukespam.
If the devs found that a real concern, I wouldn't be taking a damage loss as a RDM every time I use Engagement because the arena is too small for Displacement. Besides, as tanks and healers, many abilities are situationally more effective than others, and a damage reflection skill could always have a damage cap.Quote:
Reflecting things like tank busters wouldn’t work as SCH’s damage would differ depending on the encounter.
Bear in mind the devs elected to remove Eye for an Eye, and while they haven't stated a reason, I expect it was partly to make the tank more responsible for their own survivability... and partly because it was just unreliable and not very impactful, since it was RNG on top of a low mitigation percentage.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but between Skyshard, Starstorm and Meteor, caster LBs kinda have Comet covered.Quote:
I do want Comet, though.
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09-19-2019, 04:33 AMdeadman1204
A GCD healer would fail.
OGCD heals are ALWAYS better. -
09-19-2019, 05:37 AMYusiKhaTell that to Afflatus Solace, Rapture, and Misery.Quote:
Originally Posted by deadman1204
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09-19-2019, 05:56 AMBillythepancakeThe top WHMs force their cohealers to do the vast majority of the healing,despite WHM having more healing potential. WHM is meta because it hits hard, and using any of those abilities stops that, so they use them very sparingly, namely only when they need to move and heal at the same time, or they absolutely need to GCD heal. The only other time to use them would be during down time where the boss is untargetable so they can set up misery.Quote:
Originally Posted by YusiKha
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09-19-2019, 06:37 AMYusiKhaSorry to burst your bubble, my dude, but afflatus skills are less of a loss than a ruin2 weave, as each are worth 225pot, a loss of 75p vs Ruin's 80.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billythepancake
And this (rank 1 speedkill of E4S) hardly looks like forcing your cohealer to do the vast majority. Sorry you're being chadded by your cohealer, but tell them to pick up their slack.
https://i.imgur.com/boxVf9p.png
Edit: Oh and look at what the majority of healing was done by
https://i.imgur.com/fsNgw7b.png