Just started Shadowbringer but I have a small question (spoiler)

I may sound stupid, but I might have miss the understand why Scions are being called to the First at the bad timing?

I am up to the point where I am going to see my Scion comrades. Left me a lot of questions why I can travel back to the Source (previous world) and the other cannot?

Am I being port to the First differently by using the device?

Can the other Scions just exit behind the door in the Crystarium?

I have a feeling that the Scions in the First just think there is no way to go back to the source and end up just abandoning the source world? I wonder it is because we need to be warrior of darkness at this sense of purpose is greater importance? Since we have been fighting as Warrior of Light in the source that we may up end become what the First world that is being eaten up by the Flood?

I am confused for a bit now.

It's explained when

you meet up with the Crystal Exarch inside the Crystal Tower after arriving in the First and entering the Crystarium - basically the Archons ending up there was just a terrible accident, he hadn't mastered the 'art' of dimensional transportation and was trying to only transport you to the First, but his spell kept backfiring every time he tried it (possibly due to our Echo and Blessing of Light interfering with it) and so it kept latching onto instead "those whose fates are most closely intertwined with our own", which was the Archons and the Levelliuer twins, drawing the Archons' souls to the First.

By the time he successfully 'Calls' us as well, he's finally mastered the technique and is able to do it two-way, hence we're able to return to our body immediately and awaken back in Ishgard at the end of SB's story, and by then using a physical object as a beacon for his spell that he transports to the Source are we then able to travel there properly, in actual corporeal, rather than aetherial form.

But unfortunately the Archons are trapped in the First, they're basically physical spirits, and worse, cannot yet return to the Source. The Exach is striving to find a way to reverse the process and allow them to return but alas sadly, at the moment they're stuck there.

Either way, keep playing, as it will all be revealed in time. :)

I don't think we need spoiler tags since it isn't anything the OP won't have seen by the point they're asking this question.

It doesn't really get explained beyond that early introduction.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

By the time he successfully 'Calls' us as well, he's finally mastered the technique and is able to do it two-way

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My impression was that it wasn't so much about practicing the spell itself (rather than his aim!) but that the spell had to be 'calibrated' for the target to successfully pull them into the aetherial space where we first meet him in 4.55. I'm not sure we were bodily transported there - it seems more like just our soul, and he's made contact just to direct us to the "beacon" that will allow us to physically travel to the First.

Instead, because he "grabs the wrong person" the spell doesn't work properly, and pulls the soul out of its body and all the way to the First. Perhaps he can't control them in the same way, or their soul hasn't kept an aetherial link to their body that they would have if they were the intended target.

Whatever the reason, the outcome is that they were transported to the First by a very different method (soul magically pulled without its body) to our character (physically transported by the beacon).

So as covered by the others, we're physically there on the First (and thus able to teleport back and forth) while the others are essentially very solid ghosts, and different - not very well explained - rules apply.

(Though it's worth noting that from a story perspective, it seems to be written as if we can't teleport freely, and stay on the First throughout the game. The ability to return to the Source whenever we like is more of a gameplay convenience.)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I don't think we need spoiler tags since it isn't anything the OP won't have seen by the point they're asking this question.

It doesn't really get explained beyond that early introduction.




My impression was that it wasn't so much about practicing the spell itself (rather than his aim!) but that the spell had to be 'calibrated' for the target to successfully pull them into the aetherial space where we first meet him in 4.55. I'm not sure we were bodily transported there - it seems more like just our soul, and he's made contact just to direct us to the "beacon" that will allow us to physically travel to the First.

Instead, because he "grabs the wrong person" the spell doesn't work properly, and pulls the soul out of its body and all the way to the First. Perhaps he can't control them in the same way, or their soul hasn't kept an aetherial link to their body that they would have if they were the intended target.

Whatever the reason, the outcome is that they were transported to the First by a very different method (soul magically pulled without its body) to our character (physically transported by the beacon).

So as covered by the others, we're physically there on the First (and thus able to teleport back and forth) while the others are essentialky very solid ghosts, and different - not very well explained - rules apply.

(Though it's worth noting that from a story perspective, it seems to be written as if we can't teleport freely, and stay on the First throughout the game. The ability to return to the Source whenever we like is more of a gameplay convenience.)

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Bold part, that is exactly my thought as well the way Exarch welcome and explains the situation. That was the impression I got, I am stuck here physically as well and due to the gameplay world. It feels like entirely a new game in the new world which is why we have mogstation story skip... Probably no relation to the source until later in the expansion... (maybe)... For now we get to go back to play other quests/classes/friends etc.

Thanks for the explanation to both of you.

You're welcome!

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Originally Posted by MiniTofu

It feels like entirely a new game in the new world which is why we have mogstation story skip... Probably no relation to the source until later in the expansion... (maybe)...

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The setting is new, but the story is very much building on what has happened before - developing character relationships, events and the underlying cosmology.

Story skips are for people who are eager to get to the current content, but they would be going into Shadowbringers at a disadvantage for understanding the characters and the significance of some elements.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

(Though it's worth noting that from a story perspective, it seems to be written as if we can't teleport freely, and stay on the First throughout the game. The ability to return to the Source whenever we like is more of a gameplay convenience.)

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Originally Posted by MiniTofu

Bold part, that is exactly my thought as well the way Exarch welcome and explains the situation. That was the impression I got, I am stuck here physically as well and due to the gameplay world. It feels like entirely a new game in the new world which is why we have mogstation story skip... Probably no relation to the source until later in the expansion... (maybe)... For now we get to go back to play other quests/classes/friends etc.

Thanks for the explanation to both of you.

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That's not the feeling I got from the Exarch's explanation - he made a very real point of explaining the aetheryte that our 'aetheric link' to the Source is still there, faint, but enough to follow back to the Source via normal teleportation methods (and thus by reverse from the Source to the First in turn). This is also how the portal in the Ocular works and why we can use it to go back and forth at will while the Exarch and the Archons can't - the beacon in Syrcus Trench back on the Source is being looked after by a Son of Saint Coinach who is keeping vigil over it and functions as a sort of gate keeper accordingly.

After all, remember at the end of SB's story when Krile discovered that the Archons' aether trails suddenly ended abruptly, as they were literally severed by the Exarch's call spell, thus there is no way they can teleport back as there is no 'link' back to their bodies remaining, where as we still have a connection to the Source. So hence we can travel to and from the Source and the First at will while they cannot.

This is also how Feol Ul is able to handle our retainer tasks on the First, as he's following our aether trail between the Source and the First (presumedly the Mail Moogles on the First are doing the same thing).

It may seem like mere excuse plotting for what is mechanically gameplay elements, but the fact remains the story made a point of repeatedly mentioning exactly how we can travel between the Source and the First whenever and however often we like, so despite any evidence to suggest the contrary, I do not believe that we are story wise stuck in the First like the Archons are, and can travel freely between the two worlds at will.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

That's not the feeling I got from the Exarch's explanation - he made a very real point of explaining the aetheryte that our 'aetheric link' to the Source is still there, faint, but enough to follow back to the Source via normal teleportation methods (and thus by reverse from the Source to the First in turn). This is also how the portal in the Ocular works and why we can use it to go back and forth at will while the Exarch and the Archons can't - the beacon in Syrcus Trench back on the Source is being looked after by a Son of Saint Coinach who is keeping vigil over it and functions as a sort of gate keeper accordingly.

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Yeah, the Exarch does mention in dialogue that "in theory" (his words) you should be able to go back and forth between Source and First due to the "aetheric trail" you have. The aetheryte is one way, but it does seem like the Exarch has more confidence in the Ocular portal route. Either way, the story is clear that you can go between worlds as you please, and that while your primary responsibilities in Shadowbringers is on the First, you can also head back to the Source to do whatever you need to do in the meantime.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

I do not believe that we are story wise stuck in the First like the Archons are, and can travel freely between the two worlds at will.

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My reasons for thinking this mainly come from some things said at the end of the game.

When farewelling the Scions in the post-credits scene as we prepare to return to the Source, they talk like the Exarch would have to summon us again to get us back to the First - joking about him bringing us to the city and not dropping us in the forest next time. Then he has to specifically prepare the portal for us to use.

For that matter, we shouldn't need the portal at all when we can just freely teleport between worlds whenever we like!

And on returning to Tataru at the end... well, firstly she's surprised that you're back, because we haven't been gone as long as she expected, so apparently there was time dilation at work (despite part of the "freely teleporting" handwave being that time was currently synced up between the two worlds). But it also suggests that it's the first time she's seen or heard ftom us since we left, other than getting a message via Feo Ul - indicating we either never went back to the Source, or didn't bother to drop back in and let her know we were okay. And I'd rather assume we didn't/couldn't get back. Again, needing Feo to take a message suggests we're stuck there and can't just drop back to Mor Dhona to say hi.

Additionally, if you go back to the First and talk to the Scions post-game, they remark that they didn't know you'd come back to the First - as established in the earlier scene, the Exarch was supposed to let them know when he was summoning you again.

So, all those things together, I assume the story was written as if we were unable to freely travel. Presumably there are other benefits to being physically teleported there - perhaps we need a physical body to absorb the Light - but I don't think interworld teleportation is supposed to be one of them. The ability to do so is written into the story, but it feels like it doesn't fit the rest of the evidence.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

And on returning to Tataru at the end... well, firstly she's surprised that you're back, because we haven't been gone as long as she expected, so apparently there was time dilation at work (despite part of the "freely teleporting" handwave being that time was currently synced up between the two worlds). But it also suggests that it's the first time she's seen or heard ftom us since we left, other than getting a message via Feo Ul - indicating we either never went back to the Source, or didn't bother to drop back in and let her know we were okay. And I'd rather assume we didn't/couldn't get back. Again, needing Feo to take a message suggests we're stuck there and can't just drop back to Mor Dhona to say hi.

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This particular point can actually be different depending on optional small talk, actually (or is addressed entirely, depending on your outlook on such things).

Should you return to the Source after meeting Feo Ul, Tataru's dialogue does change to indicate she's met Feo Ul and that you should go back to the First and let her worry about the Source. The quest in question, "Travelers of Norvrandt" actually changes a multitude of small talks! The Scions have kept many of their allies in the loop regarding the missing Scions, it seems.

Tataru, Matoya, Lambertient and Arenvald all change after this; Lamberteint doesn't quite believe the Scions are in another world, Arenvald worries for Alphinaud, and Matoya asks us to tell Shtola to come visit when she returns.(I do wonder why they've been updating Lambertient since 4.4...) Of those four people, three of them have the same small talk after completing 5.0's MSQ—Tataru's dialogue, however changes. For clarity's sake, here are Tataru's 3 states:

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Originally Posted by Tataru, beginning of Shadowbringers

Forename, y-you're back! Have you already finished saving the world!?
...Not quite? Well, if you need to get back to the First, it should be a simple matter of touching the beacon. It's at the same place we found it!

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Originally Posted by Tataru, after meeting Feo Ul

Forename! I was going about my business the other day when a feisty little pixie suddenly appeared and gave me a report about your doings!
It certainly sounds like you have your work cut out for you. So just leave things here to me and focus on getting things done in the First!

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Originally Posted by Tataru, after defeating Emet-Selch

Not much to report on our end, Forename. The Eorzean Alliance is still locked in a stalemate with the Empire.
As ever, in the Archons' absence, I'm keeping the ship that is the Scions of the Seventh Dawn sailing smoothly along. I run a tight ship, I do!

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Admittedly, I learned this after I'd personally completed Shadowbringers by way of poking around GarlandTools and the like—but I do have a vague memory of checking in on the Rising Stones before Amaurot to see what, if any, diaogue changed and was amused/happy to see at least Tataru's did while the other Scions in the Stones didn't.

Another somewhat fun fact, is that the only other time dialogue on the Source changes is after you slay your first Lightwarden, Temulun (Cirina's grandmother) changes her small talk to the following:

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Originally Posted by Temulun

The light within you shines as brightly as before. More brightly, even. But your journey is far from finished. I shall pray for you.

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Everyone else on the Source, other than those I've mentioned here, just seem to have a flag for whether or not you've completed relevant quests (the lv80 job quests) or Shadowbringers (the more mundane Scions). The citizens of the First seem to have a multitude of states, typically dealing with whether you've restored night to the area they reside in, if the Light's come back, and if it's Lakeland or the Crystarium there's even more nuance... it's honestly surprising and I'm ashamed to say I missed most of the interim steps!

I'm pretty sure that I remember the exarch stating pretty plainly that the reason we came here with our mortal bodies, all of our equipment, and can travel back and forth at will using aether trails from aetherites is because we were the specific and intended target of his teleportation spell, thus the spell was able to work correctly and in its entirety.

The reason the scions only got their souls teleported, and cannot travel back freely, is because they were not the target of the summon spell, they were accidental targets of a spell that was intended for you, and as such they have these rather unfortunate side-effects.

It doesn't have anything to do with him "practicing" or "mastering" the spell.. He just finally got ahold of his intended target, and so the spell was able to work fully as intended.

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Originally Posted by gilmorej

I'm pretty sure that I remember the exarch stating pretty plainly that the reason we came here with our mortal bodies, all of our equipment, and can travel back and forth at will using aether trails from aetherites is because we were the specific and intended target of his teleportation spell, thus the spell was able to work correctly and in its entirety.

The reason the scions only got their souls teleported, and cannot travel back freely, is because they were not the target of the summon spell, they were accidental targets of a spell that was intended for you, and as such they have these rather unfortunate side-effects.

It doesn't have anything to do with him "practicing" or "mastering" the spell.. He just finally got ahold of his intended target, and so the spell was able to work fully as intended.

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Although we were indeed the intended sole target of the Call spell, and that the Archons's souls being called instead were just unlucky accidents, the Crystal Exarch actually states that the spell was actually "difficult to master" and that Archons were drawn there accidentally by his "fumbling hand", which all sounds to me like it took him ages to master the 'art' of calling the player:

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Originally Posted by FFXIV Shadowbringers main scenario quest 'Travellers of Norvrandt'

Crystal Exarch: "My intention had been to summon only you, but the art of reaching across worlds has proven exceedingly difficult to master. Thus it was that my fumbling hand closed upon those to whom your fate is most closely bound as well."
Crystal Exarch: "As they were not the object of my summons... their transferance was... incomplete. Though they may appear to possess corporeal bodies, they are, in truth, merely spirits one can see and touch."
Crystal Exarch: "Consequently, while you yourself will be able to pass between worlds with relative freedom, they will not. Much as it grieves me... they are stranded here, unable to return.

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It's why the Call spell finally worked for us, through trial and error he finally worked out how to do it properly, and bring us physically to the First.... albiet at the cost of the Archons now being stuck in the First as corporeal spirits....

Either way, the Call did not seize the souls of the Archons one by one as a means of getting to us as well, they were accidental caused by the Exarch still learning how to do it (he was basically winging the whole thing, experimenting and finding his way with things), and it paid off eventually by succeeding in drawing us to him, and ultimately, in body as well as soul, to the First proper.

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Originally Posted by Rocl

This particular point can actually be different depending on optional small talk, actually (or is addressed entirely, depending on your outlook on such things).

Should you return to the Source after meeting Feo Ul, Tataru's dialogue does change to indicate she's met Feo Ul and that you should go back to the First and let her worry about the Source. The quest in question, "Travelers of Norvrandt" actually changes a multitude of small talks! The Scions have kept many of their allies in the loop regarding the missing Scions, it seems.

Tataru, Matoya, Lambertient and Arenvald all change after this; Lamberteint doesn't quite believe the Scions are in another world, Arenvald worries for Alphinaud, and Matoya asks us to tell Shtola to come visit when she returns.(I do wonder why they've been updating Lambertient since 4.4...) Of those four people, three of them have the same small talk after completing 5.0's MSQ—Tataru's dialogue, however changes. For clarity's sake, here are Tataru's 3 states:




Admittedly, I learned this after I'd personally completed Shadowbringers by way of poking around GarlandTools and the like—but I do have a vague memory of checking in on the Rising Stones before Amaurot to see what, if any, diaogue changed and was amused/happy to see at least Tataru's did while the other Scions in the Stones didn't.

Another somewhat fun fact, is that the only other time dialogue on the Source changes is after you slay your first Lightwarden, Temulun (Cirina's grandmother) changes her small talk to the following:

Everyone else on the Source, other than those I've mentioned here, just seem to have a flag for whether or not you've completed relevant quests (the lv80 job quests) or Shadowbringers (the more mundane Scions). The citizens of the First seem to have a multitude of states, typically dealing with whether you've restored night to the area they reside in, if the Light's come back, and if it's Lakeland or the Crystarium there's even more nuance... it's honestly surprising and I'm ashamed to say I missed most of the interim steps!

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Garland Tools has failed me for picking up NPCs' changing dialogue at the various stages of the story. Normally it would all come up in the talk dialogue tab for the triggering quest, but a lot of their script seems to be missing. (eg. Lyna has absolutely no non-quest dialogue linked to her, even though she's standing at her guard post throughout the game and can be talked to.) The final quest should have loads of new dialogue, but only lists a few people back on the Source. Some of the text that should turn up there can be found on the individual NPCs and just hasn't linked to the quest script, other things are just nowhere to be found.


On being able to go back and get updated conversations from people on the Source during the game, I'd still take their comments as part of the "adapting the concept from linear story to interactive RPG" process where the story itself wouldn't send you back to the Source at all, but because you can ignore the plot intentions and go back there, the character do have dialogue to acknowledge that. I'd see it as similar to how the game adapts dialogue according to whether you've completed relevant optional quests or not. (eg. your completion-or-partial-progress of the Binding Coil at Lv50 can result in four different versions of dialogue from Alphinaud and Alisaie at Lv60 reflecting that progress, even though "canonically" you should have completed it at that point and the other three versions of the scene shouldn't really exist.)

The script twists in all sorts of ways to accomodate players who haven't done everything they were supposed to have done at this point. You weren't supposed to leave the First and drop in on Tataru, but you did, so she'll have to react to you. Just like you probably weren't supposed to ditch your companions in Dravania or Yanxia to go visit the Gold Saucer and play mini-games, but the game isn't going to stop you.


Definitely interesting that Lamberteint is getting dialogue updates though. I was just saying to someone the other day that the Garuda leadup quests are worse than Titan because at least the Company of Heroes have ongoing use as supporting characters... So. Could see his knowledge being useful in this situation - I just hope they make him more likeable than he was in ARR if we're going to have to be dealing with him.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Although we were indeed the intended sole target of the Call spell, and that the Archons's souls being called instead were just unlucky accidents, the Crystal Exarch actually states that the spell was actually "difficult to master" and that Archons were drawn there accidentally by his "fumbling hand", which all sounds to me like it took him ages to master the 'art' of calling the player:

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Different interpretations, then - I read that as "I reached across but my aim was off, so I picked up the wrong person". If it's just a matter of reciting the words and aetherially 'reaching out', then it's the reaching and aiming that he has to work on.

That line you quoted is also what indicates that the spell has to be set for a specific target, and getting the wrong person is at least part of why it didn't work as intended.

Wow, thanks for the details. Pretty in depth here to learn.

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Originally Posted by MiniTofu

Wow, thanks for the details. Pretty in depth here to learn.

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We'll go in deep here pretty quickly. There's a lot of plot details to keep track of if you want to know everything!

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Definitely interesting that Lamberteint is getting dialogue updates though. I was just saying to someone the other day that the Garuda leadup quests are worse than Titan because at least the Company of Heroes have ongoing use as supporting characters... So. Could see his knowledge being useful in this situation - I just hope they make him more likeable than he was in ARR if we're going to have to be dealing with him.

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Guh. I've been consistently checking in on the Scions and various aetherically knowledgeable NPCs (Severian, E-Sumi-Yan, Professor Erik) to see if they had updated dialogue during Shadowbringers (and the 4.x patches), but I completely forgot about Lamberteint.

I should make a note to check in on him in the 5.x patches from now on.

(I still don't know where Lyse and Hien are, in terms of being clickable to check their dialogue.)

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Guh. I've been consistently checking in on the Scions and various aetherically knowledgeable NPCs (Severian, E-Sumi-Yan, Professor Erik) to see if they had updated dialogue during Shadowbringers (and the 4.x patches), but I completely forgot about Lamberteint.

I should make a note to check in on him in the 5.x patches from now on.

(I still don't know where Lyse and Hien are, in terms of being clickable to check their dialogue.)

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For Lyse and Hien I think they're "at the front" so to speak, so likely not accessible to us at the moment. Remember, the last thing that happened prior to ShB that involved them was the holding action against Elidizenos with Yugiri and a few other alliance soldiers, wherein basically everyone there was severely injured.

I found the particular dialogue I was thinking of that indicates we haven't been back to the Source during the game:

When you return to the Rising Stones at the end:

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TATARU
But─ But─ But─!
Forename!? Is it really you!?
B-B-But how? When!? We didn't think you'd be back for ages!

Q5
What will you say?

A5
Time moves in mysterious ways.
Would you rather I went again?

TATARU
Right! So it does! The reports you had delivered by that excitable little pixie said as much!
Oh, don't be daft! I just can't believe you're actually back!
We heard the good news from your pixie friend, but nothing compares to seeing you in the flesh!

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While it could be interpreted as her not expecting to see you so soon after the last time you dropped in to see her, overall it sounds like we've been keeping her up-to-date via Feo but haven't personally come back.

Tataru may have just spoken in general terms, and just because she may not have seen us personally for a while, does not necessarily mean we haven't been back to the Source at all (whose to say we haven't quickly jumped back to sort out something personal that did not concern the Scions and so we didn't see her?). As I mentioned earlier the Crystal Exarch repeatedly informs the WoL from almost the moment they first arrive in the Crystarium that they can travel between the worlds at will, to the point that he's afraid they will up and abandon their fight against the Light and go back to the Source and pretty much begs them stay there in the First and continue fighting, based on dialogue he mentioned in the cutscene just after the player kills Philia in Holminster Switch and banished the Everlasting Light from Lakeland:

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Originally Posted by FFXIV Shadowbringers main scenario quest 'The Lightwardens'

Crystal Exarch: "But... be that it as it may... I concede it was wrong of me to summon you to this fight against your will."
Crystal Exarch: "I swear on my life, I will one day atone for that deed. But for the present..."
Crystal Exarch: "I beg you stay and see this fight to it's conclusion. Cast down the Wardens, and restore Darkness to the First!"

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Sure he doesn't outright say "Please dont go home to the Source!", but, when his previous constant references to being able to travel freely between the Source and the First are taken into account also, then it's pretty clear he's afraid the WoL is going to abandon him and the First and he is desperate to have them stay, that they can travel freely between the First and the Source, no matter what Tataru may say.

Of course the story just assumes we just stay in the First to the end, but it also does make allowances that we can and even may have even indeed have travelled back home also to the Source and returned to the First during that time, despite Tataru's contradictory statements. And as far as my character's personal headcanon goes, she indeed has... repeatedly (lets just say the Everlasting Light gave her headaches and she had to keep going home to recover). ;)

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Originally Posted by MiniTofu

snip

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The reason why is explained later, but the gist of it is that it's necessary for you to be here unless you want to lose to Garlemald.

The others had their souls sucked out of their bodies and need to be rejoined properly to leave, while the Warrior of Light was grabbed body and all. Therefore, you can travel between the two worlds with greater ease.