Please don't butcher the Mudra system for the sake of simplifying gameplay

5.08 is just about to hit and even if Ninja gets buffs, the real concern should be the already announced job rework / deep adjustments in 5.1.

I'm sure I'm not the only worried about what could happen to our current Mudra system, it needs small improvements (remove bunny, shorten clipping with less mudras per cast or just boost potencies to warrant such clipping) and it does not need a complete overhaul for the sake of dumbing the job complexity.

Mudras are the one defining aspect of ninja, no other job as an identical mechanic, dancer steps could be considered something similar but they're definitely not same. The dance steps work great on Dancer but they wouldn't fit on Ninja even if you shorten the gcd between steps, it would kill the fast paced aspect Ninja offers that many and myself included love about the job.

I don't want to delve further into this as there are plenty of threads with good suggestions on how to improve Ninja and the mudra system, but I just want this post to add to all the others who share the same concern for something that could possibly DESTROY this job's legacy which still has many strong foundations despite its debilitated current state.

Please SE, don't go too far and end up killing the identity of this amazing job.

5.08 is about to hit? when?

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Originally Posted by armandojc3

5.08 is about to hit? when?

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tomorrow night

I like the mudra system. it's actually one of the more fun game elements to work with.

but the latency attached to it needs some serious improvements.

i did once suggest they seperate ninjutsu and mudras onto seperate recasts and simply allow mudras to be weaved between gcds. perhaps not the greatest suggestion but it would at least kee the system relatively intact by allow people to essentially precast there mudra combinations ready for the ninjutsu button to come off cooldown. would go along way to eliminate latency and huge clipping issues.

also haven't ninjad yet in 5.0 so this may be out of date but fix TCJ aswell the lag there is even worse than mudras.

at this point the decision has alredy been made, we just need to wait for the patch and see how it goes. But the latency issue on the mudra system is a big thing for ppl that don't live close to servers and any change on that is mostly appreciated.

If you enjoy Mudras exactly like they are today, you're going to be disappointed.

NIN had always been my favorite DPS. I'm extremely worried about this change as the Mudra system is brilliant and I have a lot of fun with it. All that really needs to be done to "simplify" the job is for GCDs to no longer interrupt
mudra combinations. This would get rid of clipping and people could choose between double weaving or single weaving to execute jutsu. GCD -> mudra x2-> GCD -> mudra + jutsu OR GCD -> mudra-> GCD -> mudra -> GCD -> mudra -> jutsu

I'm also freaking out about the possibility of only 2 combos, are we losing our DoT? Putting it in the middle of out combo? Combining armor crush and shadow fang so we refresh hyuton every time we apply it?

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Originally Posted by kashi11

I'm also freaking out about the possibility of only 2 combos, are we losing our DoT? Putting it in the middle of out combo? Combining armor crush and shadow fang so we refresh hyuton every time we apply it?

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I think it was actually suggested that they'd be making Shadow Fang the second step in the Armor Crush combo which I wouldn't really mind, personally.

They could've made the activation of ninjutsu run on a separate 20s timer from the mudras themself so you can prepare your next ninjutsu skill before you can use it and then remove the weaponskill->bunny action. Basically allowing people to use mudras between weaponskills.

But they are going to butcher the shit out of it.

WELLP No Reduction of Ninki Cost so Strike 1 Square god.... but hey they buffed our move set. but ya know what could of helped alot Poison Knives passive Trait 20% physical everything. please give it back because drg/blm/mnk kept their traits but not us....

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Originally Posted by oph

remove bunny

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No. The bunny is the most important part of NIN's kit. It must never be removed.

As fun as the mudra system is, it needs to be changed because the mudra system is too punishing to people with any level of lag. Any change done must first be done from the lens of fixing a class that is lag-sensitive. MCH is in the exact same boat, and I actually (also) like its rotation, but the second you have bad lag the class becomes unenjoyable and in some cases unplayable without a VPN, which is just not good for the health of the game. Regardless of how it's implemented, this is an absolute problem of class and game design that must be addressed.

And unfortunately, this means mudras might need to see a massive redesign that fundamentally alters their feel, because it's necessary for the health of the game as a whole for people with worse pings to not have substantially worse performance than their peers.

That's really all there is to it, but it depends on how the devs are actually changing the system because, right now, we just don't know what's being done.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

No. The bunny is the most important part of NIN's kit. It must never be removed.

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No, bunny should be a minion achievement when summoned once! Then probably remove it because it's not important.

Possible solutions:

Make Mudra uninterruptable, so they can be weaved between weaponskills.
(simplest option, but doesn't really simplify the job at all, and kinda goes against the point of ninjutsu)

Make Mudra collate on the client side instead of server side, so ping won't be an issue and you can hit them as fast as you like, then the resulting Ninjutsu is triggered on the server side.
(Probably the most tricky option, and this would likely require a load of testing and debugging, but it would probably be the most satisfying option for Ninja players, no massive change to gameplay, just a huge QoL update to Ninjutsu)

Rework the Mudra combo's, and remove Hyoton, so that all Ninjutsu can be executed with only 1 or 2 Mudra.
(Would simplify the job like they said and marginally reducing clipping issues, but wouldn't be a huge improvement)

Make Ninjutsu a GCD, so that you're only weaving the Mudra and not the Ninjutsu as well. Increasing all Ninjutsu potencies accordingly.
(Would change the flow of the job more than anything, and would be a simplification in some respects, but again, not a massive improvement, as you're only reducing your weaves by 1)

Rework Mudra to 2 and make Ninjutsu a GCD, the last two options together.
(This would have the greatest effect on flow, clipping and simplifying the job. It would achieve what they want better than anything, but it would also be the biggest 'hit' to the job for existing Ninja players)

Unrelated in some respects:
Have the bunny trigger automatically, instead of requiring you to hit Ninjutsu to 'use' it.
Have the bunny reset Mudra cooldowns so you can try again immediately.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Rework the Mudra combo's, and remove Hyoton, so that all Ninjutsu can be executed with only 1 or 2 Mudra.
(Would simplify the job like they said and marginally reducing clipping issues, but wouldn't be a huge improvement)

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My favored solution along these lines is this:

1. Remove Hyoton, Huton, Fuma Shuriken.
2. Drop Doton, Suiton to 2-step mudras.
3. Turn Huton into a passive that automatically refreshes when out of combat, and is extended and recast purely with armor crush (will suck in some edge cases but, eh, it will at least work).
4. Raiton replaces Fuma Shuriken.
5. Ten, Chi, and Jin are now unique ninjutsu. Ten (Raiton), Chi (Katon) Jin (Suiton).
6. Doton (x->chi), and 2 other unknown 2-step mudras can be added.
7. Take Ten-Chi-Jin (the skill) and fundamentally alter it. Remove it spamming each step of the execution, but make it so that when you finish it, some super-attack that feels amazing to cast and exemplifies ninjas is cast. Alternatively keep each individual step for funsies, but make it cap off with an amazing attack that feels awesome.
8. Consider extending TCJ to 4-step at later levels for even more amazing ninja tricks.
9. Consider taking Kassatsu and letting that enable 2-step mudras, and make all of them powerful and fun. Obviously something special will need to be done for the third option to make it desirable but not something you do regularly.
10. For kassatsu/TCJ in this system, make these completely off Ninjutsu's normal cooldown so they don't step on each other's toes, but instead be a separate form of ninjutsu that use the mudras (and presumably ninjutsi button) to fire it off.

The idea is to make it so your typical ninjutsu is incredibly fast, something lag-tolerant, but still captures the feel of being a ninja even if it's not quite the current system. Then with Kassatsu, you enable a more powerful ninjutsu, and TCJ is your super ninjutsu where you start to break the limits of what is practical in combat. Kassatsu and TCJ can be similar to dance steps, whereas Ninjutsu uses the mudra system as we know it. That will help break the lag issue, and TCJ is basically like dance steps already anyways.

This won't necessarily fix the lag issues, and should be combined with other methods to help alleviate that (E.G. allowing mudras to parse client side), but otherwise will help severely limit and normalize the problems of lag while still attempting to keep the feel of the class. Hell, if they do it right, they can make TCJ the method by which vuln is applied on targets instead of trick attack, completely removing trick attack and making it feel thematically better with the class.

But I digress.

Eh, I'd prefer:

Ten: Fuma Shuriken
Chi: Raiton
Jin: Katon
X> Ten: Huton
X> Chi: Doton
X> Jin: Suiton

This way, TCJ can still go T>C>J for Fuma>Raiton>Suiton if it takes the first two as singles and the last two presses as a double.
Or T>J>C for Fuma>Katon>Doton for AoE.

It also means that when unlocking mudra's, you still only learn Fuma at first, then gain access to Raiton second, plus Doton instead of Katon, so you stil have an AoE option.
Or you could swap Katon and Doton around, so that you still learn the ninjutsu in the right order, and your AoE TCJ is now Fuma>Doton>Katon

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Eh, I'd prefer:

Ten: Fuma Shuriken
Chi: Raiton
Jin: Katon
X> Ten: Huton
X> Chi: Doton
X> Jin: Suiton

This way, TCJ can still go T>C>J for Fuma>Raiton>Suiton if it takes the first two as singles and the last two presses as a double.
Or T>J>C for Fuma>Katon.Doton for AoE.

It also means that when unlocking mudra's, you still only learn Fuma at first, then gain access to Raiton second, plus Doton instead of Katon, so you stil have an AoE option.
Or you could swap Katon and Doton around, so that you still learn the ninjutsu in the right order, and your AoE TCJ is now Fuma>Doton>Katon

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I'd rather the Mudra internal cooldowns and animation locks just scale with GCD speed and multi-step skills be compensated for their uptime cost. When Fuma and Raiton are balanced, they give you another means of minimizing Shadow Fang clipping (especially every other SF), which is a lot handier than I'm willing to sacrifice.

This would be a close second, though. Very close.

What bunny should do is still ruin a cast but reset ninjutsu/mudra cooldown so it effectively delays it one GCD instead of screwing us outt athe whole move.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

What bunny should do is still ruin a cast but reset ninjutsu/mudra cooldown so it effectively delays it one GCD instead of screwing us outt athe whole move.

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It'd still be quite infuriating when it occurs due to a lag spike delaying a hit long enough that we have to re-hit it (hence my preference to just lock out Mudra already used within that particular Ninjutsu prep, thus denying the chance of bunny), but that'd be better than nothing at least. +1

I like the ideas above, but I think it could be:

1. Rework the Ninjutsu ability to automatically become Fuma Shurken while engaged in combat.

2. Rework single Mudra combinations as follows: Ten = Raiton, Chi = Katon, Jin = Hyoton

3. Rework double mudra combinations as follows: x -> Ten = Huton, x -> Chi = Doton, x -> Jin = Suiton

4. Add the following to Mudra Tooltips: Ten -> Becomes Raiton while under the effect of Ten-Chi-Jin. Chi -> Becomes Katon while under the effect of Ten-Chi-Jin. Jin -> Becomes Hyuton while under the effect of Ten-Chi-Jin.

4. Rework Ten-Chi-Jin as follows: Resets the Ninjutsu recast timer and instantly casts Fuma Shuriken. Allows for execution of Ninjutsu without Mudra, and once reduces the recast time of all Ninjutsu to 0.5s. Using Raiton changes Chi and Jin to Suiton. Using Katon changes Ten and Jin to Doton.