1. make ninjutsu an on-gcd spell with a 20s cd (exactly like standard step) with two charges, still keeping mudra at 0.5s with no animation lock, so executing suiton would go gcd (2.5s) > ninjutsu (1s) > ten (0.5s) > chi (0.5s) > jin (0.5s) > suiton (1s) > gcd
2. make kassatsu reduce ninjutsu cd by 20s (similarly to how heat blast does for gauss round and ricochet except a full single charge instead of half of one), and make tcj unavailable while active and 30% buff/enhance next ninjutsu, same as now
3. make ten chi jin not reset ninjutsu cd but instead be a separate on-gcd spell with a 110s cd that replaces your mudra buttons temporarily with the ninjutsu actions you would get from pressing them (with 1s cds), while making the ninjutsu cd unavailable during it, so executing ten chi jin would be like gcd (2.5s) > ten ch jin (1s) > fuma (1s) > raiton (1s) > suiton (1s) > gcd
4. make trick attack a 5% vuln up with a 15s duration while increasing personal dps substantially
5. make all gcds generate 5 ninki, make all ninki spenders cost 50 ninki, and make mug and meisui both generate 25 ninki
6. rework bunshin to be a 20s duration buff that lands a shadow attack after every gcd attack for the next 7 gcd attacks, while doubling ninki generation from those attacks
7. rebalance all ninjutsu and tcj potencies to fit their new state as gcd actions, while making sure that suiton is 250 potency less than raiton (or a bit more potent than that, accounting for the extra 0.5s required to cast it) so that meisui is fully dps-neutral
8. balance their total rdps properly so the class is on par with other melee jobs
These are just ideas, obviously, but their implementation would make the ninja playstyle much less impacted by high ping and clipping and much less reliant on double-weaving, while still keeping a relatively high skill ceiling, with the slight change of focusing on moving around ninjutsu to be under buffs instead of focusing on minimizing holding ninjutsu
Additionally, trick having a 15s duration would reduce the reliance many other jobs have on double-weaving in order to fit things in trick, effectively lowering the effects of ping on other classes alongside ninja
Concept for NIN changes
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08-22-2019, 05:35 PMsuperluminalflowerConcept for NIN changes
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08-23-2019, 03:05 AMinhaledcorn
#3 is an idea I can get behind. This reduces the margin of error and allows for more flexibility in what you use under Ten-Chi-Jin. Locking Ninjas in place would be a good counterbalance to such a powerful ability.
While I would be fine with change #1, I don't think it should have charges. I don't like Kassatsu with charges, so having the basic Ninjutsu with charges wouldn't make this better. Additionally, suggestion #2 confuses me since Kassatsu already resets your Ninjutsu cooldown.
I think at this point, Ninjutsu should generate the Ninki, not the GCDs (or Auto-attacks) since Ninjutsu was Ninja's main gimmick before Ninki. Let one gimmick feed into the other. Adjust the amount of Ninki generated depend on the Ninjutsu cast (so Raiton generates a lot, Katon depends on targets hit, Suiton doesn't generate much since it's useful for something else, Huton generates depending on how much Huton timer you have left, giving you something to do during down time)
Kyoton needs to be changed. The idea of the Kassatsu upgrade was interesting, but it doesn't fix the problem of Kyoton itself. I was thinking Kyoton gets remade into a single-target DoT that can be refreshed by something like Armor Crush or a new GCD.
Trick Attack potency lowered but duration increased would make sense. Chain Strategim and Technical Step both last 15s.
Meisui was an interesting idea but functionally useless since it only dispels the Suiton buff. It seems like a skill you want to use during downtime but you can't since you can't hit anything with Suiton to get the buff. If it was so that you input the mudra for Suiton, you could hit Meisui instead and get the Ninki that way. However, this seems kinda moot with the Ninki/Huton change I suggested above.
I don't think, however, Ninja should do as much damage as, say, Monk. Monk, at the end of the day, is an overall more difficult job to use. Maybe if it was more in line with Dragoon, if somewhat behind, then I feel Ninja would be in a good spot pDPS-wise. -
08-23-2019, 05:15 AMCrashofZenkiYou should probably try the class before commenting on difficulty.Quote:
Originally Posted by inhaledcorn
Also, I really hope the Ninjutsu wont be put on the Global Cooldown. It will be the last nail in the coffin for NIN and ensure its death.
Might as well give TA to DNC and delete the job. -
08-23-2019, 06:32 AMKaiBa
Can someone please tell me why anyone would want less double weaving on ninja ?
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08-23-2019, 07:04 AMCrashofZenki
Because simplifying jobs in this game is gonna kill the game, thats why. Its already simple enough. Adn we have one forced rotation. Not even an option to take something else. Less buttons each expansion... So with the removal of more and more ogcds.. PvE is gonna look a lot more like PvP... Aka... a Mobile game. Zzzzzz
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08-23-2019, 07:14 AMinhaledcornI did? I don't play it this expansion because it feels awful to play. It's not the good kind of difficult. It's difficult because it's badly designed. Monk is difficult, but the design foundation is solid. You're basically comparing HW MCH to SB MCH. Both were difficult to play, but one felt rewarding while the other felt awful. If they fix the double/triple weaving and just how much the expect you to fit in your TA window, Ninja goes back to being a rather easy job.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashofZenki
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08-23-2019, 08:15 AMKaiBaYeah I had to make sure that was what I was reading. It's absolutely bizarre that anyone would suggest anything of that nature.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashofZenki
The job just needs a buff. The clipping issue doesn't even warrant any major changes. You could even reinstate the old fuma with new potency and/or replace it with raiton on first mudra cast. There's no clipping if you use fuma but it is a huge dps loss. Not directing that at you as you're obviously a ninja main?
Putting mudras on gcd is a vile thought. Less double weaving is a vile thought. Movement during tcj is a vile thought.
Anything that makes the job anymore basic than it already is will kill it completely.
I wanted more skills this expansion, personally. -
08-23-2019, 08:18 AMCrashofZenki
I hear the complete opposite about MNK. Its never been easier. And the positionals? Is thats what makes it hard? Because they can ignore like 2/3th of the positionals now. They have almost no OGCDs either so why is it difficult? Because it needs to keep up GL? Well its not a problem anymore now, so please explain how MNK is harder than NIN?
Oh and NIN itself isnt badly designed when it comes to the abilities. Its the potencies that drags it down as well as latency issues. It could have been prevented with a client side Mudra system instead of putting it on a GCD. Since that will still be a latency issue.
And its not double/tripple. Its tripple/quad weaving :P -
08-23-2019, 03:15 PMBurningskull
Here are my ideas for how they will / how I would handle Ninja.
Simplify the weaponskill combos. New combos would be Spinning Edge > Gust Slash > Aeolian Edge and Spinning Edge > Armor Crush > Shadow Fang.
OR: Remove Huton and make it a always on trait, and make the weaponskill combos Spinning Edge > Gust Slash > Aeolian Edge or Shadow Fang. Similar to War's combos.
Leave the skill Ninjutsu as a oGCD ability with a 1s CD that changes Spinning Edge, Gust Slash and Aeolian Edge into Ten, Chi and Jin respectively with a 1s or 1.5s GCD. Once you have a Mudra combo ready you use the Ninjutsu ability to use that combo and put Ninjutsu on a 20s CD. Potency's would need to be increased but probably not DNC levels.
Make Weaponskills give maybe 5 Ninki while Ninjutsu give 10 or 15 to spend on Ninki spenders. (I've always just viewed Hellfrog Medium, Bhavacakra, and Bunshin as advanced Ninjutsu so in my mind Ninjutsu should give Ninki.)
You could also change Ninki to be more like Aetherflow where your Ninjutsu give you a Ninki charge to spend on Ninki Spenders.
Permanently upgrade Katon and Hyoton into Goka Mekkyaku and Hyosho Ranryu.
Remove charges from Kassatsu and make it so it triggers Ninjutsu so your weaponskills change to Mudras and makes your next Ninjutsu a Critical Direct Hit. (So no need to hit Kassatsu > Ninjutsu.)
Have Ten-Chi-Jin do the same thing it does now EXCEPT it now changes your weaponskills into Mudras and allows you to move. (So no need to hit Ten-Chi-Jin > Ninjutsu.)
Remove Trick Attack and Suiton and make Ninja all about the Ninjutsu. (Yes this makes NIN more like SAM but they would still feel really different to me.)
OR Remove Trick Attack and make Suiton a party buff like Technical Step. (Yes this makes NIN more like DNC which is why I say remove it.) -
08-23-2019, 03:33 PMMarc-VigarThere aren't less buttons each expansion, you can't have 70 buttons because you couldn't even keybind them. Some stuff is either deleted, merged or reworked so we can keep playing our jobs naturally without needing 4 keyboards or joysticks.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashofZenki
About NIN, I personally like the way it is now, it flows well but it needs some serious potency buffs and some QoL on mudras and Ten-Chi-Jin.
Trick Attack is kinda meh outside of specific scenarios, it requires to use True North if solo and the debuff doesn't help much in a 4 man. Definitely doesn't justify the low potency of everything else. -
08-23-2019, 03:47 PMShurrikhanQuote:
Originally Posted by superluminalflower
- I'd really rather it say oGCD and just use client-side trust.
- I prefer for there to be a risk for using Kassatsu at the wrong time or breaking from rhythm/macrorotation.
- See [1].
- Gross. TA is probably the one raid debuff I like, for the simple fact that it's actually just enough to feel impactful, and it's short enough to give significant urgency.
Enjoy those awkward co-prime adders during Bunshin... 29/100 Ninki.Also, while on the one hand I don't want it to be that automatic to fit 2 Ninki skills into a TA, I don't want to be forced to bank for 3 Ninki skills into a Battle Litany, either. I'd much rather see, say, 60 Ninki cost on our skills. That'd still be 10 GCD per Ninki skill, as per your suggestions, but without the banking and with Suiton-Meisui finally becoming a dps increase over Raiton, even including its clipping. (And yes, I like having clipping as an extra factor when weighing a choice's damage over time. I like it a lot.)
- And this shadow attack will deal... how much potency? Otherwise we've simply increased its Ninki generation from 40% of a Ninki skill, at cost of a Ninki skill, to 80% of a Ninki skill, still at the cost of a Ninki skill.
- See [1].
- Like how?
- I'd really rather it say oGCD and just use client-side trust.
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08-23-2019, 09:57 PMVendalwind
Im not sure i like any of thses changes... sorry to say but its true. Awhile back i posted a collection of rework concepts thread. It had too many ideas and that obviously made it hard to recieve.
Anyways this is my personal refined rework hope: in order from most important to least. 4 is a bit complicated so take time to read it clearly.
1: Remove bunny Mudra. Allow missteps to function exactly like dancers. (costs a .5 second wheel spin but doesn't set you back any further) [if combo doesnt make sense/result in a ninjutsu act as if button was never pushed], Alternately keep bunny, but make it on cast cast ninjutsu cooldown so you can attempt it again next oGCD slot. TCJ would still need to have bunny removed tho entirely.
2: Ten Chi Jin triggers effect on mudra cast with general ~.7 second oGCD cooldown. This removes three button pushes, and effectively reduces the time spent casting the skill(and the immobility) by ~2 seconds. Total tcj button count reduced from 7 to 4.
3: Change mudras as such: Ten=Fuma, Chi=Raiton, Jin=Katon, Ten->Chi=Suiton, Jin->Ten=Doton, Jin->Ten->Chi=Huton.
Hyosho from fuma, goka from katon when kassatsued.
Hyoton removed.
Dropping Huton is still punishing, but clipping is now less of a problem in general.
TCJ paths remain the same (ie ten chi jin would yield fuma, raiton, suiton as normal etc.)
4: Fuma 280 potency applies a bleeding debuff called Bloodburst lasting 15 seconds worth 220 potency if triggered before it expires.
Kassatsu-ed Hyosho triggers the effect.
Both moves (raiton and fuma) are now used. Fuma is applied before a kassatsu for a 100 potency gain over raiton, but if kassatsu is unavailble raiton is the better choice at 400 potency. This encourages better ninjutsu management further as casting fuma then kassatsu next ogcd then hyosho is proper play. Should also be useable after TCJ if #2 is implemented. TCJ multiplier should not apply to the debuff.
5: Throwing dagger no longer breaks the gcd combo, thus enabling its free use during disconnects. Ninja's do regularily use kunai etc. :)
6: Buff suiton potency to 150, this makes meisui really just a ninki control tool since 40 ninki =1/2 a 500 potency bhava. Therefore using suiton->meisui is not a potency loss compared to raiton. -
08-23-2019, 10:09 PMVendalwind
After this add potency as required to bring the class more in line with priority to:
1st gcds as they are the least likely to screw things up.
2nd DwD/assassinate combo
3rd percent based to all ninjutsu related skills so as to maintain the delicate balance . -
08-23-2019, 10:14 PMSeraphorYes, but... why make Huton a 3 mudra skill?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
Keep the same pathways, just as 2-mudra skills. So...
Anything > Chi = Doton
Anything > Jin = Suiton
Anything > Ten = Huton
Then TenChiJin could repeat the first two mudras as single skills, and turn the 2nd and 3rd mudras into their 2-mudra skills.
E.g. Ten > Chi > Jin would be Fuma > Raiton > Suiton
Jin > Chi > Ten would be Katon > Raiton > Huton
Ten > Jin > Chi would be Fuma > Katon > Doton -
08-23-2019, 10:17 PMVendalwind
The result of this rework would be a class that plays very similarily to its ShB release but now has a tiny bit more mobility, and clips much less gcds.
Additionally having to leave melee range would be a little simpler as using throwing daggers doesnt result in as a big a potential loss, and fuma is now included in the NINs attacks again no more than once a minute.
And finally latency and lag birthing bunnies would no longer have such decimating effect on the NINs dps. -
08-23-2019, 10:21 PMVendalwindI thought about this alot. And id be happy either way. The main reason to keep it three in my mind was as follows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
First so dropping huton remains as punishing/embarassing and even forces a mid combat gcd clip
Second: so that other 2 button combinations are left open to new ninjutsu abilities that may one day be introduced.
Id thought about your version before you said it, in fact before the version i suggest now. Both would work fine, but i think my version might have more longevity, and i do very much think dropping huton needs to be more punishing than losing a single ninjutsu. Gcd clip isnt much but its better than nothing. -
08-24-2019, 07:42 AMSkiter
The way the mudras system was made, no matter whether it is client side or server side, you always need the server response for each ninjutsu step, because it is a step-by-step skill.
It would only work if they changed the whole system of mudras. -
08-24-2019, 06:47 PMCSX
I hope they don't rework NIN to make it just another, or more of a; 123 job. I'll be so super happy with a 10-20s reduction to TCJ and Bunshin, that'll be the equivalent to a super awesome Christmas for me.