Did anyone find the final boss of Shadowbringers a little bit....easy?

I love the story and the music, I have no issue with that, it's the battle itself.
I found Titania to be harder than Hades was, and that shouldn't be the case when you're dealing with a final boss of a game. The aoes felt like they took forever and could be dodged easily as a result. His attacks didn't feel as strong as they should have been. I went in with a random group and defeated him on the first try. I wanted something as challenging as the Eden raids (maybe a tad easier than Eden), or as challenging as Shinryu was.
I've heard that many people apparently complained about the difficulty of Shinryu and wanted it nuked? Apparently they didn't do that, but what if they nuked Hades instead? The battle just felt underwhelming when I should have been engaged and on my toes trying not to die and defeat an immensely powerful being.
Keep in mind I arrived at Shinryu a whole year after the Stormblood content was out and went in with a random group. We died a few times but once we got the hang of it, it was doable and felt so satisfying to come out on top. I just feel like I'm the only one who felt Hades' battle was on the easier side. Anyone else?

The trick with Shinryu is that at launch, when most level 70s were running around in 290 AF3 gear with some dungeon accessories (and possibly a HW-era piece or two if their dungeon luck was really shitty), it may as well have been an EX trial with how many mechanics would 1-shot or severely damage people who messed them up, and how a lot of people needed to join multiple groups before they got their clear. People had to be told things like "switch to the tail" and "run to the corner" when that sort of thing should have just been common sense.

What didn't help was that it's literally mandatory MSQ content, so EVERYONE gets pushed into it eventually. Including two particularly "lovely" BLMs with the same last name I had in one group, who thought it was OK to jump off the edge at the start and expect the rest of the group to carry them. (We wound up vote abandoning that one after multiple kick attempts failed somehow...)

Hades, by comparison, was MUCH easier. I'm expecting Hades EX to be a piece of work to make up for how much easier the regular trial was than Shinryu, but I'm not surprised that Squeenix went that route. Shinryu was a MASSIVE difficulty spike right at the end of the Stormblood MSQ and most players simply weren't ready for it. Sure, it's faceroll now that most players who get pulled in there by Trials roulette are over 100 item levels higher than the fresh 70 who's trying to finish Stormblood, but that doesn't change the fact that Squeenix probably didn't want so many people to get so hopelessly stuck right at the end of the story again. (Roulette players loading in, seeing Shinryu, and dropping group immediately probably didn't help matters any, either.)

Shinryu was more of the outlier than Hades, but I was dissapointed that Hades was as easy as he was.
But yeah, Shinryu is more the exception to the rule here. Thorden was easy even when HW was new from what I understand.

Oh well, there's the Ex next patch so that'll be fun

From a storytelling perspective, you want that trial to be epic, but not hard enough that people really struggle with it and "ruin the moment" with repeated wipes.

No one's gonna mention Steps of Faith either then?

No one's gonna mention Steps of Faith either then?

No one's gonna mention Steps of Faith either then? Sadly they have to pander to the lowest common denominator for story fights. Sure they even revamped the whole 8 man raid thing because so many people failed at Bahamut T5 and T9. The game is designed, currently, to be enjoyed by the most casual of casual gamers. If you want tough then wait for Ex and savage. I know you lose the immersion a little when you faceroll such a supreme being as Hades, but then again, story twist!!!! We do have our power amplified 8x by the exarch calling in 7 more warriors of darkness... so story wise.. Emet Selch was kinda screwed right then and there

Steps of Faith was a unique example in that not only was it somewhat difficult but also, and here was the big issue, you couldn't just wipe and restart on a run that's already ruined. You have to sit and wait for the boss to slowly lumber to the end before you can retry.

Notably on Shinryu, they did NOT nerf him because the only "issue" is that it was challenging players

True, it is difficult to balance the two, to have it both difficult and immersive.

I've been quite lucky so far that I've not really encountered people who wished to be carried, but when I did the group did just kick them out.

Thank you for your insights! I started fresh with this game before Stormblood came out, so I don't have a great understanding of how the bosses used to be back in the day when ARR, HW, and Stormblood was new content.

Concerning Bahamut, I think I've only done the first few levels of the content. I've yet to get to the very end of it. I understand they added an EX version for it?

And to this day people need reminders of where to stand and what to do with Steps of Faith. I find it quite a refreshing trial, although I can imagine at the beginning it was probably a nightmare. :')

I am looking forward to the EX trial!

That's what EX is for.

Shinryu was much harder but also look at how much was going on in Shinryu to begin with.
Easy instawipe from Tidal Wave
Akh Mhorns
Both tanks taking autos
Earth Shakers
Line aoes one after another
Meteors into multiple add phases
Active Time Event (Which throws many people off their first time)
Immediate dodging of a knockback aoe
Add that must be killed or will gradually break every platform.
Knockback cyclone
Ice floor which can lead to falling off the platform
Water puddles to reduce the damage from fire

Shinryu has a lot of stuff going on for a normal mode trial, and when everyone is still learning the fight (and people are going in undergeared which still happens today) it can lead to a huge spike in difficulty. The fact it's required for MSQ means you will get a mix of player levels with some understanding in a heartbeat and others just going for the story.

Hades in comparison has many repeated mechanics but also offers a ton of breathing room for his attacks. The big arm swing gives everyone plenty of time to run behind it, and the aoe lines that go on the sides/center also give you enough time to manage. The only mechanic I see being an issue is Doom, which is only cleansed by getting rid of the circles by standing in them iirc.

However in EX I'm sure reaction times will need to be honed, way more doom, way more aoes with variations, his own personal mechanics and hopefully an even sicker Active Time Event to make the package even better.

Don't forget that you could attempt Shinryu before doing your level 70 Job Quest - which seemed to be a popular handicap at the time.

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Originally Posted by Oo-Sophia-oO

Concerning Bahamut, I think I've only done the first few levels of the content. I've yet to get to the very end of it. I understand they added an EX version for it?

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If you mean Binding Coil of Bahamut, then sorta. The second tier got a savage version (which is relative considering all of binding coil is savage difficulty, they didn't add normal difficulty for just story til Alexander).

But as for Bahamut himself, in stormblood they added new tier called Ultimate, which Bahamut got a fight in called Unending Coil of Bahamut. It's currently generally considered the hardest fight in the game.

Shinryu wasnt "EX" levels of difficulty.
Shinryu had insta kills, but with no DPS check, you can just infinitely keep rezzing through it. (Which my groups loved doing.)
Not exactly how EXs work.
By this logic, Titan normal (not hard) is far harder than shinryu. Not only does he have insta kills, you're not even allowed back on the field.
So many people complained about titan normal back in the day, and he was also required for story. And you didnt have the ability to out gear him to the degree you can with shinryu.

Shinryus REAL challenge, and REAL problem, is that it has 3 attacks with little, to no conveyance.
Tidal wave.
Do you get near it? do you avoid it?
BOOM DEAD.
This one is only ok, because its RIGHT at the very start.
You learn right away,a nd at least how to handle it is conveyed instantly after u die to it.
So its ok.
DPS gets targeted with a lingering attack on the ground.
There's nothing to tell the DPS they can move out of the attack, other than, literally moving out of the attack, and finding out.
Also, not so bad, so it can technically pass as acceptable.
Tanks share an attack
This is the one where theres no visual indicator they need to share dmg, AND theres no indicator that easily tells you if you're doing it right.
Even if a tank runs by, and hits one of the attacks, you dont go, "oh, I took a tiny bit less dmg on one of the ticks there!"
Its much harder to figure out. And has been reserved for EX content prior. We only knew about it, because its happened in those EX/savage fights, and heard about it.
This is the one that needs to be conveyed better.

Back on topic, Hades is super easy, and needs more focus on insta kills. (And of course no real DPS check, so you can just keep reviving people up) but I assume the reason they didnt do this, is because its much harder to do now, with less means to maintain MP. So they probably decided to go with a more classic design. (They should still go back and up Thoradans difficulty a tad, not like it would be hard even with more dmg dealt. Plus Ultima should have been a separate fight, so it can also be upped a tiny bit, closer to what Hades is now)

Yeah, but that's fine. Shinryu had so much going on that tanks and healers would drop out as soon as it would come up in a trial rather than deal with helping others clear it. That's what I would see anyway. And you can't have that happening for story content.

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Originally Posted by jarlmcqueen

Yeah, but that's fine. Shinryu had so much going on that tanks and healers would drop out as soon as it would come up in a trial rather than deal with helping others clear it. That's what I would see anyway. And you can't have that happening for story content.

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No matter what the content is, as long as it requires ppl to "try" at a most basic level, you get this same result, which ppl demand it be removed, and we continue to have players, all the way till Lv70+ who still cant dodge a glowing icon on the ground. (With plenty of time to do so)

while its up to opinion, i dont think a game should be designed with the intent of letting people faceroll, and watch netflix as they play. You set up appropriate challenges, and slowly work your way up in difficulty.
By the time a player reaches Lv50, they should be nearly seeing the max difficulty the game can offer. With exceptions such as not having a full set of abilities to use, and leaving some room for future surprises.
Lv70 is like a parent waiting till their child reaches the age of 45 before letting them get a job, while still forcing them to stay home.
You eventually need to ramp up.

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Originally Posted by MaraD_

Shinryu wasnt "EX" levels of difficulty.
Shinryu had insta kills, but with no DPS check, you can just infinitely keep rezzing through it. (Which my groups loved doing.)
Not exactly how EXs work....
Tanks share an attack
This is the one where theres no visual indicator they need to share dmg, AND theres no indicator that easily tells you if you're doing it right.
Even if a tank runs by, and hits one of the attacks, you dont go, "oh, I took a tiny bit less dmg on one of the ticks there!"
Its much harder to figure out. And has been reserved for EX content prior. We only knew about it, because its happened in those EX/savage fights, and heard about it.
This is the one that needs to be conveyed better.

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It had a soft enrage. If your party died enough and did low enough damage you lost the 8 outer squares of the platform(or enough of them), and that wouldnt leave you enough room to dodge or survive some of the mechanics. It hardly ever came to that, most groups that were going to fail failed before they got to that point. As for the tanks sharing the attack, it actually did have an indicator. The name of the attack. Every Akh Mourn in the game is designed to be shared. Mostly they showed up in Ex content, but they were present in Final Steps of Faith too, and thats mainstory to end heavensward.

Shinryu wasnt difficult. People were just lazy and didnt want to listen full stop. Only one mechanic was an instant kill and that was the tidal wave that he did within the first 20 seconds of the fight. The issue was people were attempting him without doing their 70 job quest so they were missing their capstone ability and without the AF gear.

hades is certainly harder than titania but she has a dps check which is too high for a lot of people and everyoe dies if you get too many players who did not read what their skills do.

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Originally Posted by ArchlordPie

The trick with Shinryu is that at launch, when most level 70s were running around in 290 AF3 gear with some dungeon accessories (and possibly a HW-era piece or two if their dungeon luck was really shitty), it may as well have been an EX trial with how many mechanics would 1-shot or severely damage people who messed them up.

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Only one of the mechanics came anyone near one-shotting people, even in day 3 of the game... I didn't even get my first wipe until my 4th roulette run of the dungeon, despite a full bonus run the first time, nearly a full bonus run the second and third, and multiple deaths in each -- soon due more often to a simple and complete lack of healing rather than any one-shots. It, frankly, wasn't that tough, either. It just did a damn good job of looking appropriate for a final boss fight due to the hefty -- though safely infrequent -- AoEs and the two knock-off mechanics. I'd argue that Hades did a decent job of maintaining that appearance, too, especially during the dais-fall, the sweeping arms AoEs, and dual strike. Difficult? Not at all. But intense enough.

Still i feel the finall boss needs to be a certain wall, even more now as we get the artifact gear right before it.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

It had a soft enrage. If your party died enough and did low enough damage you lost the 8 outer squares of the platform(or enough of them), and that wouldnt leave you enough room to dodge or survive some of the mechanics. It hardly ever came to that, most groups that were going to fail failed before they got to that point. As for the tanks sharing the attack, it actually did have an indicator. The name of the attack. Every Akh Mourn in the game is designed to be shared. Mostly they showed up in Ex content, but they were present in Final Steps of Faith too, and thats mainstory to end heavensward.

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youre correct about final steps, (though can everyone share this akh mourn like final steps?) as for the soft enrage, its technically possible to keep going with anti-push backs back then.
also, only if u dont kill the add, which doesnt require much to kill. u could spam AoEs, and still kill it.
plus my group was all dead, and was pretty much 2 tanks and 2 healers, the they all had weakness twice, and i occasionally raised the BRD to keep giving me MP.
eventually killed it, and never saw anything close to going down to that few of blocks. im talking about 0 DPS alive throughout almost the whole fight. just enough alive to survive akh mourn, and split auto attack dmg. (Occasionally the other healer got enough MP to try and raise another DPS, but both that healer and DPS died again, so i saved MP for the tanks and that healer, and didnt bother with raises anymore, except the BRD, to get through the fight. otherwise we'd just wipe.)

I had one group so lazy, that i told them, just auto attack.
dont use skills, AT ALL.
dodge the aoes, and we'll clear.

sure enough, the 2 DPS who literally auto attacked, and dint use a single skill, stayed alive, and we cleared just fine.
(they auto attacked the tail as well, which was enough to kill it on the 2nd go.)

For me personally I prefer easier msq battles cause the difficulty isn't what makes the battle epic to me, it's the lore behind the battle, the music, and the visual showing that captivates me and makes me think wow this was epic.

Like keeper of the lake, not a hard dungeon but still a top 5 favorite battle experience in this game for me, it had everything I liked tuned just right to my liking.

I have the same mindset to Victor^.
While I'm all up for challenges, I recall my first clear experience with Shinryu is a bit frustrating due to the number of mechanics it has. Especially the case for me since I was one of the healers. It was a challenge, yes. But all the chaos kinda ruined the story hype I had before going into the trial. "Sorry Zenos, I'll get back to you in a few hours I need a break after that fight." lol

I enjoyed the Hades fight. It may not be Shinryu-level challenging but for a casual pleb like me who wants to progress through story, it builds up a great experience. From a healer's perspective, the last phase is exceptionally amazing.

May be slightly out of topic, Innocence I feel is the most challenging mechanics-wise between the 3 ShB trials.

Aside from the mechanical differences already discussed,

1. The level 70 artifact armor is easy to skip for those who forget to do their level 70 job quests in SB.

In ShB, the last level 79 story quest requires at least one set of role quests done up to level 80 and turned in to the one who has the level 80 artifact armor sets. The person only needs to speak with that vendor after the level 79 quest is done [if that player is not forgetful of course.]

2. The minimum item level required for Shinryu is 280. The level 70 AF3 is item level 290. That is only a 10 item level difference.

The minimum item level required for Hades is 410. The level 70 AF4 is item level 430. That is a 20 item level difference.

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

1. The level 70 artifact armor is easy to skip for those who forget to do their level 70 job quests in SB.

In ShB, the last level 79 story quest requires at least one set of role quests done up to level 80 and turned in to the one who has the level 80 artifact armor sets. The person only needs to speak with that vendor after the level 79 quest is done [if that player is not forgetful of course.]

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I've run into that person. xD

Still they should hand out a full set. yes its lazy but im sick seeing ppl use 430 wit some 400 stuff or less >_>

ShB's final boss felt more straightforward in that it doesn't have many mechanics that are instakills (So you can actually learn and adapt to them without having to wipe) but the unavoidable ones hit really hard.

I found Hades to be generally in line with other "Hard" difficulty trials.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

From a storytelling perspective, you want that trial to be epic, but not hard enough that people really struggle with it and "ruin the moment" with repeated wipes.

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Yet repeated wipes still happen.

Hades is easy but he's time consuming. Or was like a month ago, I dunno if he still is with all the Phantasm and Savage gear running around.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Shinryu wasnt difficult. People were just lazy and didnt want to listen full stop. .

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Or maybe Shinryu was difficult and people weren't just lazy. Prove me wrong.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Or maybe Shinryu was difficult and people weren't just lazy. Prove me wrong.

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He only has one real insta kill mechanic that he only does once -- at the very beginning of the fight. The rest of his fight is just marked aoe and logic mechanics (e.g. he's casting something called hellfire/ judgement bolt and theres a big water puddle here that gives me fire resist up and thunder resist down when i stand in it.)

Meanwhile there were plenty of people running it without their free artifact left side gear and without their capstone 70 ability from their job quest despite the game telling you every interval level to "do your job quest for free stuff like abilities and gear"

Then there were people not listening to mechanic explanations after the third wipe or recommendations that they pick up aforementioned AF gear and instead a huge forum post about how the instance needed to be nerfed.

Even the extreme version wasnt that difficult. It was just really long.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

He only has one real insta kill mechanic that he only does once -- at the very beginning of the fight. The rest of his fight is just marked aoe and logic mechanics (e.g. he's casting something called hellfire/ judgement bolt and theres a big water puddle here that gives me fire resist up and thunder resist down when i stand in it.)

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Im doing this from memory, but at least 3 of his attacks had a knockback(tidal wave, whirlwind, flyby), the icy floor mechanic from diamond dust killed way more people then it had any right to, and 2 of his moves had the potential to break part of the stage out from under you(tail slap and earthen fury). So thats 6 moves with 1-shot potential. And if the fight went long enough he would use tidal wave again(typically at a point when there wasnt enough stage left to survive a knockback so better hope you have an immunity ready). I say all of this, i never thought the fight was hard. It was harder then some people were ready for, combined with some people being lazy, and the result was much complaining. The smart people ignored it.

The fact that having a difficult boss is a bad thing still eludes me. The game largely markets to players who just wanna turn their PS4 on, do the storyline, then do something else once the story is done. I felt looking at it in the sense that Shinryu is the last boss in Stormblood (on the launch storyline), the difficultly was good when it's essentially the last boss of the game and probably shouldn't be beaten first time.

Luckily Hades is still difficult enough for people to fall over so all's well that end's well.