What is Ascian prime? (Spoilers for Shadowbringers)

I've been doing some thinking back on the Ascian lore that we have had leading up to shadowbringers and how shadowbringers allows us to look at it in a new light, and one piece of info that has always baffled me is Ascian Prime from the end of heavensward.

So what we have learned is that there are only 3 real ascians: Lahabrea, Elidibus and Emet-selch, and that they are far more powerful than their immediate forms seem. We see this with Emet-selch's transformation into Hades.

But what about Ascian prime? Lahabrea is supposed to be as powerful as Emet-selch alone, but must fuse with Igeyorhm to become Ascian Prime, a being much less powerful than Hades? It's always confused me how much weaker Lahabrea seems, and he is presented on equal strength to Igeyorhm, who by all accounts is nothing but a broken husk in comparison.

So how does Ascian Prime fit into the new lore that we have been presented in regards to the Ascians? because it seems like a huge plot hole to me.

In the optional dialogue with Emet, it's explained that Lahabrea was much weaker because he would constantly switch bodies.

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>> Choice 1: Why choose this form here in the first?
Emet-Selch: Well, well, what a curious question.
Emet-Selch: Mortal flesh is but the vessel into which we Ascians pour the elixir of our souls, molding it as fits the occasion. Or not, if we so choose.
Emet-Selch: Be it for a year or a millennium, I prefer to retain the same form until my duty is done. So, after arriving here in the First, I fashioned some hapless body into the man you see before you.
Emet-Selch: Though as your friend over there can attest, there are those of us who forgo such alterations.
Emet-Selch: He was ever the rash one, Lahabrea. Jumping from vessel to vessel. Never heeding the toll it took on him.

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Originally Posted by Kokomi

In the optional dialogue with Emet, it's explained that Lahabrea was much weaker because he would constantly switch bodies.

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This. He had to combine with a sundered Ascian just to get enough power to take us on because of his switching of bodies. Had he not done that over time, he would have had more than enough power to defeat us himself.

Model-wise at least, the Ascian Prime was actually a recyling of the so-called 'bestial Ascian' seen briefly in one story cutscene in FFXIV version 1.0 where it suddenly showed up, hissed a bit (scaring the pants off some Ixal and amal'jaa in the process) and then disappeared. That form was never given any explanation at the time, although dummied dialogue that was meant for the never-implemented continuation of 1.0's Path of the Twelve story suggested this wraith-like form was actually a deliberate appearence by them, simply to instill fear in the beastmen, basically it was a false-flag operation: teach the beastmen how to summon Primals in the form of the 'benevolent, nurturing Paragons', and then drive home the threat not long after by getting around in the wraith form to terrify them into compliance.

Really seeing the Ascian Prime use this form at the end of the Aetherochemical Research Facility in HW brought a smile to my lips in that SE were finally referencing that long-forgotten plot element.

In regards to Lahabrea's power, you also have to remember that was not the first time we fought him, he knew full well how powerful we were and so was being cautious, realizing we were too strong in the light to crush via normal means, so combining his form with Igeyorhm via the 'true power of the Echo' was meant to be simply a way of overcoming our strength in the Light by superpowering his own strength by combining it with that of a collegeue (reusing his old "hammer of Darkness against the Shield of Light" shtick in ARR).

Of course even that was easily dealt with, and, well, we all know what happened next... ;)

Ascian Prime is the physical manifestation of Darwinism. >_>

I actually have to wonder if Emet's form in the trial isn't some "Super" Ascian Prime thing. It seemed to me like he fused with/was buffed by the spirits of ancient Amaurotines, given all the Ascian masks that appear in the background during the fight.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

I actually have to wonder if Emet's form in the trial isn't some "Super" Ascian Prime thing. It seemed to me like he fused with/was buffed by the spirits of ancient Amaurotines, given all the Ascian masks that appear in the background during the fight.

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His first form is arguably the closest thing the Ascians have to a "true" form, given as they don't typically have physical forms that aren't stolen and remade in their image. (While Emet-Selch does take on the form of "Solus zos Galvus," it's rather unlikely that's his original form. Back when he was setting up Allag, he probably looked different.)

Hades' second form is using the souls of dead Ascians to further power himself up, though. Or so it's implied.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Hades' second form is using the souls of dead Ascians to further power himself up, though. Or so it's implied.

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Note that Emet-Selch claims to be stifled by his vessel of flesh right before impaling himself and initiating the second phase. The implication there is that his power was being restrained, seemingly significantly, by the host body he was inhabiting. Another thing I would point out is that his second form increases in size just after his mentioning of being raised up by the prayers of his fallen brethren. It seems more like he's emulating a primal by drawing strength from the prayers of the Ancients sleeping within Zodiark to further augment the already impressive might of his true aetherial (see: hostless) self. Could be both though.

What makes it difficult for me to believe he took in a bunch of Ascian souls is their imprisonment within Zodiark. With Zodiark split, one would think those souls quite well beyond his reach for the time being.

No antagonist is safe from VILLAIN DECAY.

What was once an intimidating and badass enemy appropriate to our content progression eventually pales in comparison to a later threat, despite the story's claims that they are equal. The excuse for it is as simple as it is plausible, of course; Lahabrea's defining feature was his arrogance.

Ascian Prime is basically just something closer to Lahabrea's true form, with his strength supplemented by Igeyorhm's not unlike when as ours was supplemented by Ardbert's.

Meanwhile, Hades is Emet-Selch at arguably full strength after millennia of bearing the burden of what he felt to be his bretheren's desire to return. He put an extraordinary amount of pressure on himself and it twisted his "true Ascian form" into something even more imposing. One could argue that the strength of his conviction for the world he loved and the people he wanted to save was the source of his incredible strength compared to Lahabrea ... not unlike the Warrior of Light themselves.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

This. He had to combine with a sundered Ascian just to get enough power to take us on because of his switching of bodies. Had he not done that over time, he would have had more than enough power to defeat us himself.

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He was also arguably trying to experiment with Hydaelyn's rules. His exchange with Igeyorhm made it seem like he'd been trying to find a willing Paragon for a while and she was just the first to relent, and after being forced apart he made it sound like it took an immense amount of strength to keep Ascian Prime together while Hydaelyn's laws of reality were trying to sunder it.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Note that Emet-Selch claims to be stifled by his vessel of flesh right before impaling himself and initiating the second phase. The implication there is that his power was being restrained, seemingly significantly, by the host body he was inhabiting. Another thing I would point out is that his second form increases in size just after his mentioning of being raised up by the prayers of his fallen brethren. It seems more like he's emulating a primal by drawing strength from the prayers of the Ancients sleeping within Zodiark to further augment the already impressive might of his true aetherial (see: hostless) self. Could be both though.

What makes it difficult for me to believe he took in a bunch of Ascian souls is their imprisonment within Zodiark. With Zodiark split, one would think those souls quite well beyond his reach for the time being.

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While his powering up does seem to be based somewhat on the prayers of the fallen Ascians, one thing to consider is that many died in the Final Days and there were likely even more casualties in the war against Hydaelyn that led to the Sundering.

Also, he's Hades. I'd be super-disappointed if he doesn't have some control over the souls of the dead, considering.

As a side tangent, was anyone else kind of taken out of the moment when he said his name was Hades? It's such a common name across fiction that compared to Emet-Selch I was like "well that's not very imposing."

I mean it was an awesome scene and battle and I loved every moment of it, but that line gave me an awkward pause.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

As a side tangent, was anyone else kind of taken out of the moment when he said his name was Hades? It's such a common name across fiction that compared to Emet-Selch I was like "well that's not very imposing."

I mean it was an awesome scene and battle and I loved every moment of it, but that line gave me an awkward pause.

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Considering the lack of foreshadowing of such a thing, yes. We knew Emet-Selch was less a name and more a title, but we didn't know any of their true names, nor did we have any suggestions of what the Ascian origins could be. If we had heard rumours of ancient Gods and their powers, then maybe this could have been a huge reveal, but with him just bringing up a greek gods name out of the blue its just... ok?

I know FF games have had Hades before, as a summon and as an enemy, but he rarely if ever actually has much influence on the story. Though I do see he was a final boss in a FFXI expansion.

Still, perhaps it's something to gleam more Ascian lore from in the future. Strange that they dive straight into this revelation with Hades though. I guess Hythlodaeus is a distinctly Greek name and could have been seen as the launching point of this greek mythology angle, but still...

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Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

Considering the lack of foreshadowing of such a thing, yes. We knew Emet-Selch was less a name and more a title, but we didn't know any of their true names, nor did we have any suggestions of what the Ascian origins could be. If we had heard rumours of ancient Gods and their powers, then maybe this could have been a huge reveal, but with him just bringing up a greek gods name out of the blue its just... ok?

I know FF games have had Hades before, as a summon and as an enemy, but he rarely if ever actually has much influence on the story. Though I do see he was a final boss in a FFXI expansion.

Still, perhaps it's something to gleam more Ascian lore from in the future. Strange that they dive straight into this revelation with Hades though. I guess Hythlodaeus is a distinctly Greek name and could have been seen as the launching point of this greek mythology angle, but still...

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You can tell by Emet-Selch's design that he was heavily inspired by previous iterations. It may have just been their way of slipping in yet another reference, in which case it's just a name and has no real meaning beyond that.

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Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

Considering the lack of foreshadowing of such a thing, yes. We knew Emet-Selch was less a name and more a title, but we didn't know any of their true names, nor did we have any suggestions of what the Ascian origins could be. If we had heard rumours of ancient Gods and their powers, then maybe this could have been a huge reveal, but with him just bringing up a greek gods name out of the blue its just... ok?

I know FF games have had Hades before, as a summon and as an enemy, but he rarely if ever actually has much influence on the story. Though I do see he was a final boss in a FFXI expansion.

Still, perhaps it's something to gleam more Ascian lore from in the future. Strange that they dive straight into this revelation with Hades though. I guess Hythlodaeus is a distinctly Greek name and could have been seen as the launching point of this greek mythology angle, but still...

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I imagine it's both a launching point and an opportunity for a reference, since pegasi were apparently created as a result of a stray thought entering someone's mind during the use of creation magic and a lot of the architecture around the end of Akademia Anyder looks very Greco-Roman.

A great many things about Amaurot are based on Ancient Greece, from the reflections of Platonic musings to the ideas about education and the importance of rhetoric. Soooo many people completely misunderstand the side quest in the school of rhetoric because they don’t know enough about Greek history. Debate in ancient Athens was a art form where rhetorical persuasion and flourish was the point; it was often considered to demonstrate your skill more effectively if you argued for or against something you had no strong feelings about. The two Amaurotians who go to the hall of rhetoric to discuss the possible actions in the face of calamity are not advocating either course. Nor are they dismissing it. They are engaging in a debate for the sake of debate and thus honing their rhetorical skills. To them the word rhetorical doesn't mean something specious, as we misuse it to mean these days, but something valuable and useful.

It makes me cringe so much when I hear people arguing on these very forums that Amaurotine society was clearly oppressive and bad because these two individuals have this RHETORICAL debate. This kind of thing is the meat and bones of philosophy, and the Ancient Greek culture - whilst certainly not faultless by any means - is widely viewed as admirable and influential.

There are many things about Amaurot that bother me - the main one being their attitude to individuality - but at the same time the shades espouse some fascinating arguments that are interesting to ponder. The idea that keeping one's individual merit and character private so as not to cause jealousy for example. That's a real conundrum. I have not heard anything in that city to suggest that it was authoritarian and repressive in any dictatorial way. The very fact that they encourage debate so profoundly makes that utterly clear.