Why didn't the Ascians ever go after Koryu?

I'm replaying Stormblood on an alt, and decided to do the Four Lords storyline again because I greatly enjoy it.

I'm not going to go into spoilers, but basically Koryu had the power to destroy the world. If it wasn't for some last second heroics on the part of us and our allies, he would have done just that.

But it seems like Koryu could have caused a Calamity. In general, there seems to be some serious untapped power in the Far East - from the relics, to the kami, to the Four Lords themselves - that could provide more than enough power and aether for the Ascians' purposes.

I'm curious as to why they never seemed to use any of it. They are almost exclusively focused on Eorzea and its best tribes.

Was it too dangerous for even Elidibus or Emet-Selch to touch?

Calamities require a very specific process to facilitate, and without knowing much about Koryu beyond his madness it's difficult to say whether or not he could be used to trigger one.

Sure, he could wreak lots of destruction... but that doesn't mean he could be used to cause a rejoining.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Calamities require a very specific process to facilitate, and without knowing much about Koryu beyond his madness it's difficult to say whether or not he could be used to trigger one.

Sure, he could wreak lots of destruction... but that doesn't mean he could be used to cause a rejoining.

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True. But I feel like the Ascians could figure something out. They are master manipulators after all.

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Originally Posted by Lium

True. But I feel like the Ascians could figure something out. They are master manipulators after all.

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Well, considering that a Warrior of Light dealt with the problem, whose to say that the Ascians didnt try to do something with Koryu before he was sealed. Afterwards, he was sealed with a crystal of Light, so i dont think the Ascians could do much there.

Occam's Razor: Perhaps the Ascians simply did not know about Koryu. It's a big planet and there are a bunch of duplicate planets that the Ascians have to keep bouncing between.

It may just be they need everything to go down as close to Silvertear Lake as possible for their plan to work.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Well, considering that a Warrior of Light dealt with the problem, whose to say that the Ascians didnt try to do something with Koryu before he was sealed. Afterwards, he was sealed with a crystal of Light, so i dont think the Ascians could do much there.

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This is my feeling too. Tenzin had some aces in the hole as well with his Four Lords comrades and the various other lesser auspices that might have gathered around him during that time. While Tenzin and the Four Lords may not have known about the Ascian's per se, they knew enough to understand the threat Koryu posed and took steps to deal with it.

Related to this, it makes me think about the aramitama and it's effects via the Lifestream. What is it exactly? Is it perhaps related to the Calamity that brought about the fall of Amaurot etc.? Or maybe it's something that was seeded by the Ascian's in an attempt to destabilize the Source in preparation for a Rejoining? It would stand to reason that, with the presence of other WoL's throughout time (Ramza, Tenzin) there were probably other attempts made by the Ascian's that were foiled by Hydaelyn's chosen. In that sense, perhaps the aramitama is some kind of foreign influence applied to the Lifestream with the express intent of disrupting the balance of powerful beings in the hopes of causing chaos that could then be leveraged to force a Calamity/Rejoining.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

It may just be they need everything to go down as close to Silvertear Lake as possible for their plan to work.

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I was initially in agreement that this is a strong possibility. All of the Calamities we know about were triggered in Eorzea, and Eorzea is said to be particularly rich in Aether. It's not unreasonable to think that those things are related - that Eorzea is the ideal place to "punch a hole" for a Shard's Aether to flood in.

However, a snag with this theory lies in the fact that Tenzen was a Warrior of Light, as well. Why would Hydaelyn set a WoL to work so far from Eorzea, if that's where the bad stuff would need to happen? I think it's quite possible that the Asicans DID have a hand in the whole Koryu mess; perhaps once Koryu began its rampage, the Ascians had some way to direct him toward Eorzea?

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I was initially in agreement that this is a strong possibility. All of the Calamities we know about were triggered in Eorzea, and Eorzea is said to be particularly rich in Aether. It's not unreasonable to think that those things are related - that Eorzea is the ideal place to "punch a hole" for a Shard's Aether to flood in.

However, a snag with this theory lies in the fact that Tenzen was a Warrior of Light, as well. Why would Hydaelyn set a WoL to work so far from Eorzea, if that's where the bad stuff would need to happen? I think it's quite possible that the Asicans DID have a hand in the whole Koryu mess; perhaps once Koryu began its rampage, the Ascians had some way to direct him toward Eorzea?

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We also know there were other WoLs in different parts of the world. Dalmasca/Ivalice had Ashley Riot, Ramza and co with Ultima being the threat there.

Now its been a while since I did The Four Lords questline, so my memory isnt 100% accurate, so maybe someone can answer me the following question: Is/was Koryu a sentient/intelligent being?

If so, that might be one reason why the Ascians didnt go after him: An actual god-like entity is probably a lot harder to control than the manipulation of some beast men. As we know their primals arent actual living creatures and just whatever the people who summon them want them to be - but if Koryu actually is a being of and by himself dealing with him might be a lot more dangerous than getting the Amal'jaa to summon Ifrit, even for an Ascian.

The Auspices are all their own persons. They aren't something anyone "made up". However, they tend to go crazy if their aramatama/negitive emotions don't have some kind of outlet every once in a while. Koryu has gone crazy from the build-up of aramatama to the point there was no bringing him back to Tenzen (a WoL) was forced to seal him so he wouldn't destroy Othard.

The odds of the Ascians being able to manipulate Koryu is... very, very slim. The most they could do would be to get someone to fight their way past all the sane auspices and undo Koryu's seal and sit back and watch the destruction. Which doesn't exactly work well with how much their plans have to sync up across the Shards and the Source.

That's a very good point, actually. Sometimes I forget Calamities take a lot of work and planning to cause. They can take centuries or even millennia to plan. It isn't just destruction, but a specific kind of destruction. It has to be an aspect of aether, such as light, dark, earth, water, ice, fire, etc. And then there has to be the corresponding catastrophe on a Shard that matches the imbalanced aether on the Source.

Koryu certainly has the destruction part down pat. I'm guessing his aspect would be fire? But the Ascians would have to make sure that same aspect was overflowing from a Shard. Still, though, I'm sure they could have figured something out. Unless Koryu was too unpredictable, even for the Ascians.

If they were impatient, they ended up with a void like the 13th shard, not to mention this is on the Source itself. They can't turn the Source into a void.

I was cruising around Lakeland yesterday and found a very large crystal formation at the bottom of the lake, between Isle of Ken and the shore. Considering there aren't crystals anywhere else in that area, I found this to be rather curious. That part of the lake is also called The Source. I wonder if that is where all the worlds are connected? Or where Hydaelyn smote Zodiark and shattered the star?

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Originally Posted by Lium

That's a very good point, actually. Sometimes I forget Calamities take a lot of work and planning to cause. They can take centuries or even millennia to plan. It isn't just destruction, but a specific kind of destruction. It has to be an aspect of aether, such as light, dark, earth, water, ice, fire, etc. And then there has to be the corresponding catastrophe on a Shard that matches the imbalanced aether on the Source.

Koryu certainly has the destruction part down pat. I'm guessing his aspect would be fire? But the Ascians would have to make sure that same aspect was overflowing from a Shard. Still, though, I'm sure they could have figured something out. Unless Koryu was too unpredictable, even for the Ascians.

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Presumably they would need the world destruction to stop at some point. If all life in the Source is destroyed, then the Rejoining has failed.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Presumably they would need the world destruction to stop at some point. If all life in the Source is destroyed, then the Rejoining has failed.

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Well... maybe, maybe not. I don't think that it's been established that folks on the Source need to be alive for the Rejoining to succeed. In fact, I think there's a strong possibility that if anyone IS still alive on the Source, they will need to be killed so that their souls can either be used to regenerate the original Ancients they split from, or so they can be used as fuel to make that happen.

The split souls of the Ancients live in mortal bodies, and they've presumably died hundreds of times since the Sundering. What's one more?

A Flood is another story, of course. From what we've seen on the First and the Thirteenth, a Flood renders Aether into an unusable state on a planetary scale. But ordinary death, returning the souls to the Lifestream? That might work fine for the Ascians' plans - they may even prefer it that way.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Koryu certainly has the destruction part down pat. I'm guessing his aspect would be fire? But the Ascians would have to make sure that same aspect was overflowing from a Shard. Still, though, I'm sure they could have figured something out. Unless Koryu was too unpredictable, even for the Ascians.

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The Auspices of Othard differ from their real-world counterparts and, as far as I can tell, they don't represent any particular element, let alone the cardinal directions that they're usually associated with in Chinese/Japanese astrology. So, no, I don't think Koryu in FFXIV is associated with any element, any more than Bahamut was (the primal version of the Dragon King was all elements in one, and none of them in particular).

But, real-life Koryu is associated with earth, because he lives underground, within the land itself, if I'm not wrong. It's Suzaku that represents the fiery heat of the sub-tropical/tropical south.

Byakko guards the west, the direction of death, where the land is dominated by mountains and trackless desert. The White Tiger is also associated with metal. Genbu sits in the north, and stands for water. And Seiryu brings in the rain from the oceans in the east, nourishing the plants on land, hence his association with wood. It's a bit counter-intuitive actually, the associations between the elements and the Four Symbols, and I think it's not usually referenced in real life. The more popular norm is to associate them with seasons. So, Seiryu represents spring, Suzaku represents summer, Byakko for autumn and Genbu with winter.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Well... maybe, maybe not. I don't think that it's been established that folks on the Source need to be alive for the Rejoining to succeed. In fact, I think there's a strong possibility that if anyone IS still alive on the Source, they will need to be killed so that their souls can either be used to regenerate the original Ancients they split from, or so they can be used as fuel to make that happen.

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That is exactly my point, if all life is dead on the Source, then the needed fuel to give Zodiark the power to remake life is gone. Their mission would fail. They need calamities to trigger rejoinings but they can't be extinction level events or they'll repeat what happened on The World of Darkness.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

A Flood is another story, of course. From what we've seen on the First and the Thirteenth, a Flood renders Aether into an unusable state on a planetary scale. But ordinary death, returning the souls to the Lifestream? That might work fine for the Ascians' plans - they may even prefer it that way.

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If Zodiark could draw power from the souls of the Lifestream, then the Ancients wouldn't have needed to sacrifice their lives to power him. Since the Ancient's souls are still around, then presumably returning all the souls in the Source to the Lifesteam means there's nothing left to power Zodiark's ability to remake life.

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Originally Posted by Edax

If Zodiark could draw power from the souls of the Lifestream, then the Ancients wouldn't have needed to sacrifice their lives to power him. Since the Ancient's souls are still around, then presumably returning all the souls in the Source to the Lifesteam means there's nothing left to power Zodiark's ability to remake life.

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Ah - but I believe there WAS NO Lifestream before Zodiark. THAT was the new life created by Zodiark to restore the world, and that was what the Dissenters hoped to protect when they invoked Hydaelyn. Whether there are ANY beings currently actually alive doesn't matter at all, because the Lifestream itself is alive. Living creatures are just short-lived extensions of the Lifestream poking above the surface, and eventually returning to it.

Admittedly, it's speculation at this point, but I have several reasons for believing it to be true. For one thing, the souls of Ascians (and therefore likely the Ancients, as well) are incompatible with the Lifestream, as was revealed in the ARR MSQ. The cycle of death and rebirth associated with the Lifestream has nothing to do with them. While we know Ancients can die, it's less clear what happens to their souls after death. Perhaps they just wait around until a new Ancient is born - which would be a useful way to keep a population of immortals capable of bearing children stable (the only viable children are those born at a time when a soul is available for them). In the same way that real life humans are just a specific type of animal, it's unlikely that the Ancients were UNIQUE in this trait - likely ALL the plants, animals, and so on that lived with the Ancients before the great calamity also had nothing to do with the Lifestream.

Because the Lifestream is something Ancients are entirely divorced from, it seems likely that the Lifestream WAS the "new life" created by Zodiark. The Lifestream did its work healing the damaged world, and in the process brought countless new life forms - some intelligent - into the world. The Council, at that point, felt the world was healed enough that they didn't NEED the Lifestream (or any of its spawned creatures) anymore. The Dissidents disagreed, finding the Lifestream and its creatures to be worthy of preservation (and probably also not really cool with the "eternal servitude to a dark god" bits, either).

From an Ascian standpoint, whether the Lifestream has any tendrils poking above ground at a given moment is irrelevant. Raze the surface of every Lifestream-borne thing and it doesn't matter - the Lifestream can still serve as a sacrifice to Zodiark for the restoration of their world. This is why I believe that any catastrophe short of a Flood (which would kill the Lifestream itself) is fine for the Ascians' plans.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Ah - but I believe there WAS NO Lifestream before Zodiark...

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While your comment makes sense, I am wondering a more dark matter in regards to the Ancient Souls...What if the souls of the dead Ancients are what ended up causing the Calamity that Zodiark was summoned to fix. By your logic, the Lifestream was made by him. This would mean that. potentially, what Zodiark did was give the souls somewhere to go rather than just sort of...Floating around? Souls without bodies, building up, individually not able to do much, but when you end up with so many souls after a time, even if each of them is barely making a whisper in the grand scheme of things, it builds up, and behind each of the souls, the full power of Creation Magic...But not necessarily the control.

Speculation on speculation, but it's a curious thought now.

My theory is that because it takes place in the far east, and as Doma had already been acquired/conquered by Garlemald, even with the four lords, since neither of the empires troops had ever mentioned of a terror this size or massive at the time, they wouldn't have even batted an eye to consider looking at it. Their priorities lay with the primals and the 12 deities. Was the four lords + Koryu ever a threat ever outside of the small islands to the east? Nothing that said or showed signs like the primals in eorzea (a blighted realm... riddled with false gods).

I'll have to check upon the lore book since the four lords are in Eorzeapedia Vol II (which is available on the Square-enix store!) and check to see if there might be a reason as to how or why tenzen and the four lords hadn't ever been contacted or engaged by the Ascians during the first, second, third, 6th, 12, and 13th star.

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Originally Posted by Elkanah

My theory is that because it takes place in the far east, and as Doma had already been acquired/conquered by Garlemald, even with the four lords, since neither of the empires troops had ever mentioned of a terror this size or massive at the time, they wouldn't have even batted an eye to consider looking at it. Their priorities lay with the primals and the 12 deities. Was the four lords + Koryu ever a threat ever outside of the small islands to the east? Nothing that said or showed signs like the primals in eorzea (a blighted realm... riddled with false gods).

I'll have to check upon the lore book since the four lords are in Eorzeapedia Vol II (which is available on the Square-enix store!) and check to see if there might be a reason as to how or why tenzen and the four lords hadn't ever been contacted or engaged by the Ascians during the first, second, third, 6th, 12, and 13th star.

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The weird thing is that the Garleans definitely encountered at least one Auspice, ie Tamamo Gozen. Not only that, but Tamamo Gozen tried to fend off the Garlean invasion, only to fail and be wounded heavily. So the Garleans definitely know that big supernatural-type creatures exist in the Far East, and I can't imagine they would simply leave it at just the one Auspice encountered.

I suspect the Auspices in general, and maybe Koryu in specific, might have been way at the back of the backup plans the Ascians had. As in they knew about Koryu and such, but Eorzea had so many other possibilities that the Ascians were spoiled for choice in causing chaos.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

The weird thing is that the Garleans definitely encountered at least one Auspice, ie Tamamo Gozen. Not only that, but Tamamo Gozen tried to fend off the Garlean invasion, only to fail and be wounded heavily. So the Garleans definitely know that big supernatural-type creatures exist in the Far East, and I can't imagine they would simply leave it at just the one Auspice encountered.

I suspect the Auspices in general, and maybe Koryu in specific, might have been way at the back of the backup plans the Ascians had. As in they knew about Koryu and such, but Eorzea had so many other possibilities that the Ascians were spoiled for choice in causing chaos.

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They wounded it, which possibly means that they didn't seem to think it was a huge or major threat since it was easily wounded and able to be knocked over. Why go after what would be assumed small fry, in comparison to something like Bahamut (locked away in the binding coil?).