Double True Rotation Monk Complaint...

I have an issue with monk. We have GL4 now, and that's great! However, with the addition of GL4, even a small amount of SKS makes double True Strike rotation viable, because the rest of stats can be weighted towards crit>dh. Especially now that monk is so GCD focused, double true rotation is pulling ahead of what I'll call the original rotation more than ever to the point where you're just blatantly leaving damage on the table. A few problems in more detail:

-No other melee has to go rear flank rear flank rear flank. Monk doing double true rotation will often be swapping between positionals very frequently one gcd after the other, at times for 6 gcds in a row. It feels awful. And before I hear "Riddle of Earth! 2 True Norths!" There are still times where you may not have true north, are waiting on RoE to proc, or just have no reason to hit them and it's safe to do the ugly positional dance. It's ugly. I've always liked positionals as an afterthought, a passive expression of familiarity, but double true rotation brings positionals far too into the forefront

-No other melee is essentially playing with a priority system instead of a set rotation in the way monk is. Double true monk is essentially doing both rotations, as you have to mentally note when you miss a gcd of uptime for whatever reason, in which case you stop doing double true and will do the normal refresh of twin snakes. Monks now have to track not only demolish but also twin snakes in relation to the uptime you've kept, as well as leaden fist buff and time remaining on RoE, on top of every other cooldown while doing positionals. This job has become really busy in the ugliest way just by the original, reliable rotation becoming suboptimal. For every other job you can keep your rotation in more or less the back of your mind, with your main focus being cooldowns/resources and fight mechanics while you go through your trained and trusty rotation. Not monk anymore.

-To go along with the last point, the monk UI is SORELY LACKING. I don't want to fish along my buff bar amongst party buffs, regens, shields, etc. for twin snakes, earth's reply, and leaden fist. ALL OF THESE NEED TO BE PART OF THE JOB GAUGE. THEY ARE ALL CORE TO HOW THIS JOB FUNCTIONS.

-I'd wager a guess that double true rotation wasn't considered when balancing this job's damage, and it could be a big reason why monk is considered top tier right behind dragoon right now. The potency gain of working in nearly twice the true strikes in a fight over a monk doing the original rotation can't be dismissed. I can't say for sure what the devs used, but it just makes sense to assume they used ye olde rotation.

I can't really say why I'm making this post other than to vent my grievances on something that has made a job unenjoyable for me. I can do double true rotation, I've spent the time since SHB launch breaking my old monk muscle memory and getting adjusted to tracking twin snakes buff and mentally noting when I dropped uptime. It feels like a lot of focus on my rotation that doesn't need to be there for any other job. It feels clunky, sloppy, and cheesy. I'm gaining dps and yeah, I guess in some way I feel accomplished for learning it but overall it breaks the flow of monk way too much when I think with the original rotation the job still has enough going on to feel satisfying. Double true feels obnoxious and like I can't participate in calling out mechanics for my static because I'm tunneling on, quite frankly, what I think is the hardest dps in the game for the wrong reasons.

Fixes? Reduce twin snakes duration by 3-4 seconds. This will absolutely kill double true. It will also be a nerf to monk as they'd drop the buff with downtime, so there could be some buffs to compensate. Alternatively or along with that change, nerf true strike potency and buff twin snakes potency. Close the gap between these two abilities so true strike is still the pure damage alternative to twin snakes, but the difference between the two rotations becomes less staggering and just not worth the effort.

I agree completely, the double true rotation needs to be killed off, It's an incredibly strict and tight rotation that relies heavily on not disconnecting from the boss at all, making sure all positional's are met and keeping track of twin snakes at all times so you don't end up using an opo-opo GCD without twin snakes to gain the maximum damage with the rotation itself. Not performing the rotation is a significant DPS loss in comparison to traditional monk and it feels as though monk as not designed for this and this is just taking advantage of a oversight with the jobs design. It's not a fun rotation to perform especially when you have to dance between positional's while still performing mechanics correctly and this becomes really annoying very fast especially in mechanic heavy fights such as E4S which has a lot of boss disconnects and positional dancing if you are not using Riddle of earth or True north. We can't just not do the rotation itself knowing the DPS we gain using it over traditional monk either which makes it that much more annoying to do since it'll just hold back not only ourselves but our team not using the most optimal means to play monk. The double true rotation completely kills monk for me when I already have issues with the job due to things such at the anatman server tick reliance in the opener and the dragon kick/leaden fists spamming during perfect balance. It's an incredibly annoying and ugly rotation that is not fun to play at all.

Is it really that bad when you can hover next to the dividing line between rear and flank so that you can minimize movement? It is what SAM/NIN players do. It is only an issue when you have to deal with a boss that likes to spin to face the target it casts an AoE on.

Welcome to what I enjoyed about high SkS Monk pre-GL4.

And by now you only actually have positionals as a mechanic for 20 seconds per minute, so...

I just ignore the positional for twin snakes in the rotation.
Is that bad? Yeah, probably
But honestly, 20 potency every 15 seconds or so isn't a big deal

On the other hand you can just extend ts duration to the demolish one, so you have a slight margin for error

And yet Monk is at the top of the pecking order atm hmmmmm I wonder why? ☝☝☝☝☝☝☝☝

Wild thought: what if Twin Snakes (and even Demolish) had a recast timer separated from the GCD? As far as tracking the buff, it would be very easy if the buff duration was the same as the recast timer.

You called the monk rotation a priority system, which made me think of this. As monks GCD gets lower, too, weaving in oGCDs gets harder. Would it be super weird if monk had zero oGCD attacks, and instead all their attacks were weaponskills with longer than normal recast timers, and you used them as part of a priority system (except maybe Shoulder Tackle, as that's a utility move)?

Hard? No, like I said I'm used to melee, I know about staying close to the dividing line between rear and flank. But do e4s and tell me how fun it is during the times you don't have/have to use true north RoE

This isn't /just/ about the ugly positional dance (there is no such thing as 100% free positionals even now), or having to git gud at a complex job or about monk "deserving" to do this much dps with double true, the whole point of this post is the amalgamation of all these issues which is: it feels like I'm playing an oversight in job design.

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Originally Posted by RemoveMateria

This isn't /just/ about the ugly positional dance (there is no such thing as 100% free positionals even now), or having to git gud at a complex job or about monk "deserving" to do this much dps with double true, the whole point of this post is the amalgamation of all these issues which is: it feels like I'm playing an oversight in job design.

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If not for double-true being possible since ARR, I would agree fully.

But, it has been. It's nothing new. Thus, I must only tangentially agree, and for different reasons.

Admittedly, I dislike that double-true no longer also means double-boot, which meant (if caught w/o PB) side-side-back-back-back-side-back-back-side in ARR -- much more manageable.

The oversight isn't GL4, though. The oversight was giving Dragon Kick effectively 425 potency (637.5 effective potency) via its Leaden Fist buff.

Possible, but it never pulled this far ahead of single true rotation. It's basically mandatory. You don't have to go out of your way anymore with skillspeed, now the optimal amount of "normal" skillspeed to have allows double true.

I've been playing monk for a little now, (not very long) and am not yet lvl 80 BUT, I agree with you RemoveMateria. To be completely honest i would have rather seen earths reply being less useful and maintaining the positional aspect of monk more throughout.

Right now I am not attempting the double true method, but I can already see where it's problems stem from. I love the positional dance of monk, but on bosses like E2 for example I can very much see how switching positionals constantly would be effectively team killing since each dps is basically locked into one cardinal.

And having 45 seconds on average out of the minute be positional free, to then have 15 seconds of ridiculous position swapping every 1.5 seconds nearly it gets a liiiiiittle nuts. I like having a high skill cieling as much as the next person. But yeah I agree the two true strike combo should die I personally think.

And with MNK in the best positional in the game right now I feel like your proposed nerf to TS time of 3 seconds and proposed buff to its potency and reduction fo true strike potency slightly would be the best move. That being said I would want someone to look into if that 3 seconds dropped from TS had any issues in the normal rotation as well. just 2 seconds might be better.

As an additional note tho, to be aware you are definately not the only class with a priority system rather than a rotation.
DNC for example is exceptionally easy, but really is a priority system for sure thats completely random in point of fact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RemoveMateria

I have an issue with monk. We have GL4 now, and that\\'s great! However, with the addition of GL4, even a small amount of SKS makes double True Strike rotation viable, because the rest of stats can be weighted towards crit>dh. Especially now that monk is so GCD focused, double true rotation is pulling ahead of what I\\'ll call the original rotation more than ever to the point where you\\'re just blatantly leaving damage on the table. A few problems in more detail:

-No other melee has to go rear flank rear flank rear flank. Monk doing double true rotation will often be swapping between positionals very frequently one gcd after the other, at times for 6 gcds in a row. It feels awful. And before I hear "Riddle of Earth! 2 True Norths!" There are still times where you may not have true north, are waiting on RoE to proc, or just have no reason to hit them and it\\'s safe to do the ugly positional dance. It\\'s ugly. I\\'ve always liked positionals as an afterthought, a passive expression of familiarity, but double true rotation brings positionals far too into the forefront

-No other melee is essentially playing with a priority system instead of a set rotation in the way monk is. Double true monk is essentially doing both rotations, as you have to mentally note when you miss a gcd of uptime for whatever reason, in which case you stop doing double true and will do the normal refresh of twin snakes. Monks now have to track not only demolish but also twin snakes in relation to the uptime you\\'ve kept, as well as leaden fist buff and time remaining on RoE, on top of every other cooldown while doing positionals. This job has become really busy in the ugliest way just by the original, reliable rotation becoming suboptimal. For every other job you can keep your rotation in more or less the back of your mind, with your main focus being cooldowns/resources and fight mechanics while you go through your trained and trusty rotation. Not monk anymore.

-To go along with the last point, the monk UI is SORELY LACKING. I don\\'t want to fish along my buff bar amongst party buffs, regens, shields, etc. for twin snakes, earth\\'s reply, and leaden fist. ALL OF THESE NEED TO BE PART OF THE JOB GAUGE. THEY ARE ALL CORE TO HOW THIS JOB FUNCTIONS.

-I\\'d wager a guess that double true rotation wasn\\'t considered when balancing this job\\'s damage, and it could be a big reason why monk is considered top tier right behind dragoon right now. The potency gain of working in nearly twice the true strikes in a fight over a monk doing the original rotation can\\'t be dismissed. I can\\'t say for sure what the devs used, but it just makes sense to assume they used ye olde rotation.

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The potency gain is literally within RNG spreads, you can not do it and still out parse a mnk that does just by having slightly better luck. That hardly makes it mandatory.

Nerfing twin by 3s is a terrible idea. Especially for those leveling Monk. At GL1 i'm sure there is roughly 1 or 2s to refresh it. Subtracting 3s would make early monk feel bad to play while leveling. DRGs cried about their disembowel only having 1s left on refresh and they got it bumped up to 30s. Just increase Twin by 2 or 3s and solidify the rotation. Idm the rotation tbh makes the class feel artificially more faster with the extra movement. One thing I do agree on however, there are lots of timers we're watching, It would be nice if either leaden or twin could be more visible, perhaps a fist icon could light up akin to dark arts on DRK. When there's 10 buffs on my bar it's almost impossible to find where leaden and twin are.

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Originally Posted by RemoveMateria

...feels like I'm playing an oversight in job design.

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Because you are. This isn't supposed to be Monk's rotation anymore that Anatman was intended to be used in the opener. They have slapped some skills onto Monk then panicked and slapped on some more in the last patch. This isn't an oversight, they've ignored Monk core rotation since A Realm Reborn and all these bandaid fixes to keep it in line with other jobs have created this Frankenstein rotation.

Similar to accidentally creating the Tornado Kick rotation by changing Riddle of Wind last tier.

I think I'm more bothered by how tight the window for triggering a third Leaden Fist during Perfect Balance is.

If you have any amount of noticeable latency at all you probably aren't going to be able to pull it off due to the fact that the game only makes the check for Perfect Balance being active when Dragon Kick actually connects as opposed to the moment you use it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RemoveMateria

I have an issue with monk. We have GL4 now, and that's great! However, with the addition of GL4, even a small amount of SKS makes double True Strike rotation viable, because the rest of stats can be weighted towards crit>dh. Especially now that monk is so GCD focused, double true rotation is pulling ahead of what I'll call the original rotation more than ever to the point where you're just blatantly leaving damage on the table. A few problems in more detail:

-No other melee has to go rear flank rear flank rear flank. Monk doing double true rotation will often be swapping between positionals very frequently one gcd after the other, at times for 6 gcds in a row. It feels awful. And before I hear "Riddle of Earth! 2 True Norths!" There are still times where you may not have true north, are waiting on RoE to proc, or just have no reason to hit them and it's safe to do the ugly positional dance. It's ugly. I've always liked positionals as an afterthought, a passive expression of familiarity, but double true rotation brings positionals far too into the forefront

-No other melee is essentially playing with a priority system instead of a set rotation in the way monk is. Double true monk is essentially doing both rotations, as you have to mentally note when you miss a gcd of uptime for whatever reason, in which case you stop doing double true and will do the normal refresh of twin snakes. Monks now have to track not only demolish but also twin snakes in relation to the uptime you've kept, as well as leaden fist buff and time remaining on RoE, on top of every other cooldown while doing positionals. This job has become really busy in the ugliest way just by the original, reliable rotation becoming suboptimal. For every other job you can keep your rotation in more or less the back of your mind, with your main focus being cooldowns/resources and fight mechanics while you go through your trained and trusty rotation. Not monk anymore.

-To go along with the last point, the monk UI is SORELY LACKING. I don't want to fish along my buff bar amongst party buffs, regens, shields, etc. for twin snakes, earth's reply, and leaden fist. ALL OF THESE NEED TO BE PART OF THE JOB GAUGE. THEY ARE ALL CORE TO HOW THIS JOB FUNCTIONS.

-I'd wager a guess that double true rotation wasn't considered when balancing this job's damage, and it could be a big reason why monk is considered top tier right behind dragoon right now. The potency gain of working in nearly twice the true strikes in a fight over a monk doing the original rotation can't be dismissed. I can't say for sure what the devs used, but it just makes sense to assume they used ye olde rotation.

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Monk is ahead of Dragoon though in the majority of fights.