There are two schools of thought on how summoners should play in XIV. The first school wants stronger Egi's that are more representitive of their primal forms. The second school of thought wants a more old school variation where summons are single use, strong attacks. The thing is, these two things are not mutually exclusive, and we can in fact have both. And better yet, this propsition requires very little in the way of new art assets.
First things first, remove Aetherflow abilities and put their potency onto Egi Assault's. Ifrit gains 300 potency for Crimson Cyclone and Flaming Crush, with Flaming Crush becoming single target only. Garuda gains 150 potency on Aerial slash and slipstream deals 50 potency, with a 50 potency constant damage. Titan gains 150 potency on Mountain Buster, and I suggest replacing Earthen Armor with Earthen First, a 300 potency attack which also raises a 20% hitpoint shield on you. This makes Titan a middle ground between Ifrit and Garuda. Finally, double the basic special attack power of Garuda and Titan and beef up Ifrits to 200 potency. Right now their basic special attack is anemic and needs a shot in the arm.
Now, for the other side of the fence and the one area that would require some additional art. Summoners would gain a new resource, called Primal Rage. Primal Rage builds up to the tune of 8 rage per primal special attack, and 10 per Egi Assault. This bar is the art I was talking about. At 100 Primal Rage, Enkindle becomes usable. Enkindle now causes your Egi to briefly assume their full Primal form ((But smaller, of course)) and deliver a beefed up version of their former Enkindle abilities. Ifrit deals 600 potency to his initial target with a 60 potency 15 second DoT and half of that to everything in a cone that is not his primary target. Garuda delivers a straight 700 potency attack to the target and all nearby enemies, and Titan delivers a 600 potency attack to his initial target then lays down his 40 potency per tick damage field. This makes Ifrit the king of single target, Garuda AoE, and Titan right in the middle. And now for where all that extra damage is coming from...
Finally, Dreadwyrm Trance remains the same, but now summon Bahamut summons the King of Dragons for a single, 1,300 potency attack that no longer unsummons your current Egi. He then hangs out looking awesome for a second before buggering off into the aether. Phoenix Trance no longer summons Phoenix, but when it ends Summon Bahamut turns into Summon Phoenix which does the same as Bahamut, summons the firebird to deal a 1,300 potency attack and apply her HoT to the party. Yes, this removes their attacks that they deal when you use abilities, but that damage is now tacked onto the new Enkindle.
How to fix summoners.
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08-08-2019, 10:13 AMPalladiamorsHow to fix summoners.
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08-08-2019, 10:13 AMPalladiamors
And there you have it. We have strong egi's, powerful summons, and we cut down on some of the OGCD spam we need to do at the start of fights. Clearly the potencies would need some adjusting ((Not sure if as is they'd be too strong or not strong enough)) but you get the picture. This allows summoners to differentiate from Black Mages while retaining their identity of relying on summoned creatures to fight for them.
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08-08-2019, 10:30 AMBarta
Or they'll just.... Not give SMN any of these juicy and wonderful ideas and at this rate let the job be sad for an expansion.
Or slip out lame mini-math adjustments. -
08-08-2019, 11:26 AMOldeWolfe
At this point, I would just be happy with a pet that can generate agro for use in fates, leves, hunts and the like...
Having a class that did less damage in exchange for mobility and a pet to assist with both agro dmg, was what I had signed up for when I mained SMN.
Smn for me now...meh. -
08-08-2019, 11:28 AMNyoraii
I like these ideas, but still, they'd have to fix many of the pet's problems as of now to make this work... If the potency is so much more dependent on egis, they'd have to function 100% correctly or our dps loss would be huge.
Also, I think I'd like it more if there was a choice between for example:
>Trancing to Ifrit (best single target dps)
>Trancing to Garuda (best aoe dps)
>Trancing to Titan (maybe buff the party and debuff mobs? that or get rid of it completely)
And then having a choice between:
>Trancing to Bahamut (best single target dps)
>Tracing to Phoenix (best aoe dps)
So on a boss fight you would be trancing to Ifrit->Bahamut normally and to Garuda->Phoenix for ad phases. Maybe to Titan too depending on how they implement it.
But these are all just ideas, in the end what they'll most probably do it just increase some potencies, see people are happy with higher numbers and call it a day. -
08-08-2019, 11:38 AMKabooa
The egis are currently a step away from just being visual representations of the Summoner's buttons. One more step and the 'pet' aspect can be completely removed inf avor of temporary visual augments. (RE: Big monster).
Have more "Egi Assaults" that change based on which Big Monster is out. -
08-08-2019, 12:54 PMZerathorYou're right, they might have to put up with being the most popular savage caster by 50% vs other casters combined instead of 75%. The tragedy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barta
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08-08-2019, 01:22 PMVendalwindI don't play SMN yet but looking at the logs even RDM is outdoing them in some percentiles right now, and they do have raises but the gap between them and BLM is HUGE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerathor
Im honestly still surprised there isnt a bigger rant following for them and RDM than there is for NIN right now, but thats cause they do actually still have some outside dps utility.
It's not something to make light of.
SMN is in a bad spot, and IMO would be the class I'd want the least in my raid group of the 3 to fill the caster spot. -
08-08-2019, 01:29 PMDrayosReally?! What percentiles I haven’t seen any logs with RDM out performing them? :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
But yeah BLM is defintly king of casters xD haha -
08-08-2019, 01:35 PMdinnertimePeople in the english forums are too focused about the playstyle and writing out their own ideal SMN by reworking the fundamentals of the job which isn't really a bad thing, but I'm glad the japanese forums are talking about its low damage problem a lot more, and the devs will probably listen to them more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
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08-08-2019, 04:35 PMGrimoire-M
I'm honestly content with how SMN plays right now. Do I understand the complaints? Yes. Yet despite that, SMN feels more like SMN than it ever has thematically, has similar punishment for jump phases/downtime compared to its other caster DPS, and for the first time ever doesn't feel like it's sacrificing its fluidity to do any of that. It's not perfect by any means, but I'd rather not see any rotational changes. For the first time since HW, my only concern is the numbers.
Even so, if SE wants to restore what people liked about SMN's gains from downtime before, what I'd like to see them do is add charges on DWT/Tri-disaster/Energy Drain (while also boosting Tri-Disaster's cooldown to 1 minute), lock them to 1 charge on instance transition/reset, and only let them charge during combat, akin to WHM's Lilies. I feel that's a good compromise overall. The only other thing would be allowing Devotion to be used by Bahamut/Phoenix if people really think that's needed. I don't feel it is, but the option's there.
Numerically, I'd like to see Ruin II and IV buffed by 20 potency each (basically copy Ruin I to Ruin II, and up the base potency of Ruin IV), a 10 potency increase on each of their DoTs (as it's less problematic to adjust compared to Ruin III), and allow Ruination to affect Fountain of Fire/Brand of Purgatory, Phoenix's spells. As far as I can tell it doesn't appear to right now. If it does, update the tooltips to communicate that. -
08-08-2019, 08:30 PMZerathorA job in a bad spot isn't the most played job of a role by a significant margin. Ninja, is in a bad spot, stormblood machinist was in a bad spot. This? This is people being upset the job isn't absurdly overpowered anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
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08-08-2019, 11:05 PMMyon88Could you explain how you think BLM is similarly punished during downtime now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimoire-M
Polyglot continues to tick while combat is paused, and with the addition of an extra charge it's now essentially a skill with 3 charges. Impossible to overcap if you're playing properly. It's a very valuable resource as xenoglossy is one of the most powerful tools they received this expansion.
They have also always been able to regenerate MP in downtime at their leisure, ensuring when combat restarts they begin with a full MP bar instead of however much they had when the downtime happened. Umbral soul makes things even more convenient, as no longer do you have to juggle between af1 and ui1 with transpose. Instead you can simply keep yourself in umbral ice, build up to ui3, and generate umbral hearts to boot. This lets you skip b4 when combat restarts, as well as enter fire with a fast f3 by virtue of being in ui3. They now regain their max output state extremely quickly after downtime because of this. -
08-09-2019, 12:30 AMLetz1. Can you tell us with what evidence you see this "significant margin"? And even if that were true:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerathor
2. Your argument is based on whether people are still playing SMN or not, which is not related to whether or not there are problems with the job in the first place.
3. If the job was overpowered in previous expansions, it is also unrelated to whether the job has problems with it currently. -
08-09-2019, 12:31 AMLetzAll of Titan Savage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drayos
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08-09-2019, 01:01 AMZerathor1.https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29Quote:
Originally Posted by Letz
I guess week 2 they fell more in line with blm in popularity on all fights combined
Get down to titan, it's still in lead slightly
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29#boss=68
2. I've seen jobs in unplayable job positions. Know what people did? Not play them anywhere near this much. Especially not in the first few weeks of a new tier.
3. I feel it's related because many have forgotten how it feels to be in a more balanced position when they were used to being on a pedestal. -
08-09-2019, 02:23 AMLetzQuote:
Originally Posted by Zerathor
1. Yes, BLM and SMN seem to be pretty much even across the board now. And I expect that BLM will overtake it soon after people stop prioritizing SMN because of its rez in prog. But either way, even as it stands now, I wouldn't consider that a significant margin.
2. I would not categorize the complaints players have as calling SMN "unplayable." Obviously there are people who are dramatic, but that goes for all jobs. I believe this is a more annoying position that SMN is in currently, compared to AST in 5.0. SMN is playable, but still flawed. Therefore, the devs might feel less pressure to fix the flaws and bugs, because it is still playable, unlike broken af AST which got its rework immediately. Compare that to what happened with MCH all throughout SB. It had major flaws, but it was still playable, so that's where it sat literally all expansion. Yes, they tweaked potencies and small things, but that never solved any issues design-wise. That is what a lot of SMNs don't want to see happen. So being vocal now is the best chance to get the dev's to focus on SMN.
3. I will say – that's a good point. I do believe that SCHs outcry was heavily influenced by the favoritism they experienced until 5.0. However, we are still here to discuss SMNs issues, and not the playerbase's reactions to the flaws, whether they are overreactions or justified. So that's a good metric to dismiss certain reactions to issues, but not the issues themselves.
To add to this, I believe a lot of more casual players don't perceive issues that affect playability because letting abilities drift and clipping don't really bother people until they become interested in playing optimally. So their feedback is that the job is fine, which is placing a lot of weight on the other side of the scale – feedback which is influenced by personal play choices and not an objective evaluation of the job's design. -
08-09-2019, 03:19 AMZerathorI find its the opposite really. The casuals can't figure out what the hell is going on and want it extremely simplified or reworked. The good smns I've talked to enjoy the pace and only complain about the clipping bug on first WW. At least out of people I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letz
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08-09-2019, 03:39 AMExodus-E
Removing the Ruin IV proc' from both Egi Assault(s), as well as making them more "useful" and less "spammable" (Garuda-Egi's Slipstream which applies a ground DoT, and Titan-Egi's Earthen Armor are good examples) would go a long way into making it less busy/clunky.
Adjusting Ifrit-Egi's Crimson Cyclone so it rushes to its target (as a "gap closer") would be nice as well. -
08-09-2019, 11:07 AMGrimoire-MThis may come as a shocker, but recovery has very little to do with it. The problem isn't BLM's ability to recover at all. Most of BLM's damage is still tied up in Fire IV itself. Downtime just naturally hurts them more, but Xenoglossy/Foul and their cooldowns still tick during that period, which are frankly minor compensations compared to what some classes get, relatively speaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myon88
RDM similarly loses the ability to generate and spend B/W Mana but this is minorly offset by Contre Sixtre/Fleche/Displacement/Corps-a-Corps. The bulk of their DPS still remains in their spells.
In SMN's case they now lose Energy Drains if the downtime is long enough, which effectively costs two festers/painflares as well. If the downtime occurs at the right time and is upwards of 50s in length, it can eat into Egi Assaults and more importantly, Trance windows. Either by way of making Bahamut align poorly (which you can compensate for by just blowing DWT early), or simply by delaying when you get to use Phoenix, which is the bigger deal imo. SMN still focuses on its burst windows relative to the other two casters, but SE's changes going into ShB have been targeted at their filler in an attempt to make it as important as the other caster DPS. And it shows in their numbers, for the most part. If you're getting full Bahamut/Phoenix value, using Ruin IV to move around and weave Fester/Painflare/Assaults, and keeping Energy Drain/Trance on cooldown, and always casting Ruin III otherwise, you're generally parsing well right now.
It's just numbers that are a concern, and in that matter Zerathor has the right of it. We're solidly middle of the pack. Something that hasn't been true of SMN since ARR to my knowledge. -
08-09-2019, 03:24 PModym82
Personally I’d just like summoner to be a able to summon more summons...... of any kind
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08-09-2019, 03:31 PMExodus-EHad they actually implemented proper (ie. non-Carbuncles) Egi glamours, then that wouldn't be an issue anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by odym82
And yet, we're still waiting after all these years... -
08-09-2019, 06:18 PMTaranokPutting a fancy dress on a sock puppet doesn't magically change it from being a sock puppet. They would need to actually make the beefed up egis feel like a primary component of the class. Which they don't want to do, instead the devs want Ruin and Bio and Miasma, non-summon-related-things, as the actual damaging force behind the class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus-E
And if we do this, it will both require an actual rework of the class, AND make the summoner feel worse anyways for any of a variety of reasons.
Egi glamours won't fix anything, it will just make a terrible mechanic feel even weirder when the egis keep hitting like wet noodles instead of whatever more imposing form you choose.
In the short term this can be corrected by focusing more damage towards it E.G. by dropping Energy Drain/Siphon/Fester/Painflare entirely, but the egi system itself is broken at its lowest level, and probably never can be actually fixed. -
08-09-2019, 11:01 PMCrimsonGunner
the summoner summon system need a complete rework.
summoner need to be able to summon more primals like shiva,rammuh,leviathan not just ifrit,garuda,titan to make it feel more like a summoner rather then a simple pet controller.
i dont mean u have to use all but to be able to pick the ones u prefer which they fall under a certain category like dps,defence,support something like that and big summons like bahamut and phoenix need to be somewhat combo finisher in the higher levels.
also i believe they needs to make summoners rely on their summons more not just his debuffs and ruins since that is kinda the point of summoning.
i truly believe once they change how the summon works ,the potency numbers can then be balanced more easily and approriately among the debuffs and ruins and the summons skills as well.
it doesn't have to be the strongest dps but with better summon system that really utilize the summons better it will be fun and makes u feel more like a summoner rather then a sloppy pet class. -
08-09-2019, 11:27 PMSequora
I think two big changes they could make would be to increase the CD of egi assault to 1 min, but add the old ruin 2 effect, so that pets have a 15% chance of giving us ruin stacks with their auto ability. This would decrease button bloat a little, and give us increased mobility as we’d have more ruin IV procs.
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08-10-2019, 12:18 AMExodus-ETake note that I didn't say *anything* about Egis not being weak/impactful or anything like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok
And you're absolutely right on that point: they are all in desperate need of (huge) potency increases. Especially Summon III/Ifrit-Egi.
As it is, they're all hitting like "wet noodles"; exactly as you said.
Also, tying Ruin IV procs' to their Egi Assault actions was a huge mistake in my opinion.
All I did was replying to the fact that SMN needs more summons, which an actual Egi glamour system would've fixed.
But eh...
I'm totally on board with these ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sequora
These would (easily) solve some of its "play-style problems" (ie. its busyness/clunkyness).