BRD Notes from 8/7 Live Letter

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Q4: Bard was made easier to manage in 5.0, but since the number of songs hasn't increased, the job seems to be lacking in party support. Do you have any plans to add songs that'll support the party?

A4: In patch 5.0, we removed most party synergy effects, but left actions such as Nature's Minne to differentiate it from machinist. Giving bard more party utility would make bard closer to dancer, and would require bard's damage to be lowered. The current situation is that it has some party utility, and has decent damage, which is hard to balance.

However, we would like to consider player opinion, so please continue to provide feedback on the forums so we may reference it for future adjustments.

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Well I'm happy to give that feedback Yoshi-P, and thank you for at least considering it. I would much rather sacrifice personal DPS to get more of my job identity back (although I feel both our personal DPS and our Party utility seem below average, especially when compared to Monk and DRG). I'm totally ok with being on the lower side like Dancer as that is what a Bard should be, a mobile ranged DPS that brings out the best in their team with a solid burst rotation.

My current suggestions to the devs would be is to bring back Foe's Requiem, but reworked into an oGCD ability on a 2 minute cool down that lasts about 15 seconds. I also would suggest a reworking of Warden's Paen, as currently it is an ability that see's little to no use and many Bard's take it off their bar's entirely. I would love if it provided a damage buff of some kind to a single party member, but if you want to keep it non damage flavored, a defensive buff of some kind like a mixture of Palisade/Apocatastasis would feel very good too. I also feel that the buff to Minne to work on oGCD feels great, but it's double on the cooldown time makes the ability much more difficult to get use from outside of anything except organized static play. I would like to see it lowered to it's original duration. Finally Battle Voice being lowered to two minutes but also have the percentage brought back to 10 or 15% would make it feel a bit more impactful.

If personal DPS need's to be brought down after these changes then so be it. I happily accept that trade off. It will make us feel more like a Bard again and give us back one of our most iconic abilities in Foe's Requiem that many of us feel should not have been removed. Then in the futre expansions some more utility based around the Soul Voice change would be awesome.

Nope. All three ranged are in a bad spot right now. In all likelihood the meta comp will be three melee and BLM, because ranged are so far behind they won't even be worth the 1% main stat increase, once NIN and/or SAM are buffed. (Even now it might actually be best to just MNKx2 + DRG + BLM, limit break be damned)

So DO NOT buy into any of this nonsense about how Bard's damage would need to be decreased. With all the ranged needing to be buffed by a fair amount, it'd simply be a matter of buffing Bard via raid damage contribution, instead of via personal damage. Give Dancer and Machinist equivalent personal damage buffs to match and we're all set.


I have two broad requests that run counter to your suggestions too -

One, any added support should carry decision weight.

The main reason people were fond of Foe, despite its clunkiness, was its flexibility - depending on the fight timings and the mp restoration available, you could sit down and work out when it was best to use it and for how long each time.

If any damage support is to be added, it should be of this nature, and not something like the 2% crit buff that's just passively always on with no interaction.

Players will "feel" more supporting when they're actually engaged with their support skills, compared to something passive, or even something like Battle Voice (or your proposals) where you just press a button every n minutes.


Two, do not neglect other concerns.

In particular, Bards are widely disappointed in Apex Arrow as a capstone skill, and it would be a boon to QoL to have charges on Empyreal Arrow and/or Bloodletter.

Also, Army's Muse leads to some weird timing outcomes by shifting the GCD just enough to muck with the WM-MB transition at low SkS.


In general, the charge system makes a lot of sense for a lot of Bard's kit. Putting a second charge on Battle Voice would make its timing much more of a decision, and for similar reasons a revived Foe rework would most make sense as a charged skill.

Plus the aforementioned EA / BL QoL options, and heck charges for Minne would be a nice compromise to avoid actually cutting its cooldown. Presumably SE wouldn't want to go too crazy putting charges all over the place though (even though in theory they could and it'd be fine), so it's a bit tricky.

As for Warden's, I kinda like it as-is? Not everything has to be Savage-relevant. Though if it's causing them to be shy about adding cleansable stuff to Savage for ranged dps balance reasons, they ought to rework it on that basis alone. Something like a baby Excog would be a good fit for the current flavor and mechanical structure of the skill, imo.

I don't feel that bard necessarily needs more support in terms of bigger numbers, but I do think bard needs to be able to use support more often. I would prefer to have weaker support abilities that I can use more frequently.

In 4.0, we had Minne every 45 seconds, Foe every 1-3 minutes (depending on Refresh usage), and Refresh and Battle Voice every 3 minutes. Minne and and Battle Voice are stronger now, but with the increased recast on Minne and the removal of Foe and Refresh, it feels like I am not providing much support because I rarely get to use a support ability.

Apex Arrow absolutely needs to be reworked. There's a lot about the skill that is outright contradictory to how the rest of the Bard toolkit functions. I will repeat this again as I have in threads before this: its current design is a straight up newbie trap.

1: Apex Arrow is the only song-related skill that is on the global cooldown. It is considered a song skill by the nature of DoTs only charging up the Soul Voice gauge when one of the three songs is active. Every other song-related skill is off-global. Apex Arrow being a global cooldown skill is one of THE major fundamental problems about the skill, for reasons seen below...

2: Apex Arrow being a global cooldown skill that's usable at 20 gauge (100 potency) makes using it a straight up DPS loss compared to Quick Nock (150 potency) until around 40 gauge, and Burst Shot (230 potency) until around 60 gauge. The tooltip does not tell you this. At all.

3: Considering the above argument, people will bring up that Apex Arrow is actually stronger than both skills at lower gauge amounts than what I mentioned, but the thing is, Apex Arrow does not flow into any other Bard skill in any meaningful way compared to all other global cooldown attacks. In fact, it flows against overall Bard design nowadays. As a global cooldown skill, it does not have a chance to reset Rain of Death or Bloodletter like Quick Nock does. Nor does it have a chance to proc Refulgent Arrow like Stormbite/Caustic Bite, Iron Jaws and Burst Shot does. Apex Arrow is just there.

Making Apex Arrow an off-global cooldown skill would solve the problems brought up by points 2 and 3 in one fell swoop, as there would no longer be any situation where using it is a total DPS loss (outside of optimal party buff related reasons, which is true of every oGCD). It could be nerfed to like 300-400 potency at max gauge to compensate, it will still be better than the current iteration of Apex Arrow.

4: Apex Arrow having a range of 15 yalms while every other Bard skill aside from Quick Nock having a range of 25 makes it clunky to use in some situations. This is especially in regards to using it in situations where the Bard has to split up from the party and needs to venture out of Apex Arrow's usable range. Sure, it's an AoE, and sure, it actually has longer range compared to Quick Nock, main difference being that you are expected to use Apex Arrow in single-target situations too.

5: There is absolutely no control as to when you get to use Apex Arrow at full strength, due to it being solely tied to Repertoire procs. I've had fights in Savage content where the first Apex Arrow I get to use at 100 gauge happens ~45 seconds into the fight (halfway through the first Mage's Ballad), and other fights where it reaches 100 gauge halfway through Army's Paeon at ~75 seconds into the fight. Trying to align it with party buffs (and even your own Raging Strikes!) at optimal strength is outright impossible as a result, unless you simply hold onto that 100 gauge until said party buffs/Raging Strikes become available - which is also a DPS loss in itself depending on when you get that 100 gauge, because you don't know how much gauge generation you're losing in the meantime.

This could be better controlled by perhaps buffing gauge generation in some way (maybe activating Mage's Ballad/Army's Paeon/Wanderer's Minuet grants +20 Soul Voice gauge), and increasing max gauge to 150 (only using a maximum of 100 gauge at once, the extra 50 gauge would be there to collect overflow if the Bard wants to wait for party buffs/Raging Strikes).

As a Bard main BARD IS PERFECT AS IT IS NOW DO NOT CHANGE IT BACK

I'm sorry but I don't want to go back to support Bard. Bard is absolutely perfect right now and does have a job identity. It's in a perfect middle between MCH and DNC. Seeing DNC's situation on DPS, I rather keep the personal DPS. I mean... Battle Voice still doesn't apply to the user after all this time. Please... please... please... PLEASE don't push Bard back. It's finally in the spot it always needed to be in. I really don't want to give up personal dps after we finally got it for the first time in ages just to get some taken for granted utility back for the other jobs that only want us to pad them. And if Bard ever get's a "Dragon sight" kind of skill, I'm changing jobs.

PS: I play Bard for the Archer aspect moreso than the Bard aspect. I don't really care how involved my songs are, I just like bow and arrows.

Apex Arrow

• Proc Sound is the same as Pitch Perfect procs. I'll even take danger bongos, please just give us an extra sound.
• Late hit calculation can make this miss it's mark completely sometimes while still consuming the entire gauge.
• Is usable at 20. Just, no. Why would you make it usable when it's weaker than basically any other button to press?
• (Minor) I would like to see a power adjustment. For how clunky it feels, it doesn't feel rewarding or satisfying at all to get it.
• (Minor) Why is the range 15y as opposed to what every other gcd other than quick nock uses? Would having 25y make the line aoe effect too overpowered? For me, this contributes to the move feeling weak when I can literally see the effect end. Sidenote, it doesn't feel very "apex".
• (Minor) Being on GCD. I admit I'd probably feel this way about any move intruding on our GCDs, but it's a once every 50-80s move so it seriously does not feel like it should be on GCD.

Empyreal Arrow: Changed to Ability
So that happened, and it's getting on my nerves a bit. Every once in a while it hits against gcd now. Proposed fix would be adding a charge to add flexibility to its usage. There should be no problem in doing this, it'd only add one extra pitch perfect stack and one empyreal arrow to the start of an encounter. Bloodletter could use the same treatment, though I imagine that is a scarier change for the dev team to take with the implications of Mage's Ballad.

Troubadour: Role Action in disguise
The move has no identity of its own. It was simplified in use, harmonized with a new version of Tactician and the new move Shield Samba. I'd personally like to see all three of these moves have a different effect. And make them stackable. I don't see why they can't stack if they're supposed to be different moves.

Nature's Minne: Nerfed for no good reason
Normally I don't like drawing parallels to other classes but this one I think is worth noting. Monk's Mantra is literally a better version of Nature's Minne on a Melee DPS. Same cooldown, same effect but on a party-wide basis.

Warden's Paean: Too situational
Warden's Paean feels as worthless as ever. Yes, I know it's not completely worthless, but more often than not the healer uses esuna anyway. Something needs to be done to this ability to make it feel like there's actual use to it. I think the most use I've ever gotten out of this is using my own body to defuse those circles during one of the fights in Rabanastre, and clearing away the odd silence from a healer. Neither of the other ranged dps gets this, so it's basically impossible to design an encounter around having it, but it's not a boon to have it either since it's so incredibly situational in it's current use.

Repelling Shot
Can we please just jump away without a target? It doesn't deal damage anymore, so I don't see why we still have to pretend we're shooting our target.

Decision Weight
Foe Requiem being gone and getting a free Refulgent Arrow with every Barrage has removed a lot of decision making from the job that's really not replicated elsewhere in the job. While I'm not against free RA procs as a whole, as it does make the job somewhat more consistent, I wish there was more decision making to be had like it used to. Foe Requiem was a perfect skill for this, even in it's clunky implementation. I know I, and many others, liked it for what it was. Troubadour also felt clunky, but gave a choice of effect by having it change per played song.

Supporting and Singing feels lackluster
With several of the aforementioned moves having either an awfully long recast time or a minimal effect, being the bard its lore makes it out to be simply does not exist in it's current iteration. Battle Voice feels strong, but is reduced to being relegated to a burst window every 3 minutes, which you're not even fully a part of since Battle Voice doesn't affect you. Nature's gets relegated to "Oh no, [x] messed up and might need extra healing!" Alternatively you can use it to power up a healer's shielding on a singular person. And Troubadour is a skill that can only be used every 3 minutes, gives a 15 second long 10% mitigation. Meanwhile, White Mage's new Temperance ability combines Troubadour and a Largesse effect (Which honestly would've been a better way for Nature's to be implemented), which is 5 seconds longer and also a minute shorter cooldown. Really?

Those left behind
Overall losses were quite large, and the gains during these expansion were minimal. We gained an AoE Sidewinder and Apex Arrow, with Burst Shot replacing Heavy Shot. What we lost however...

• Straight Shot. Bound to happen with the introduction of a new gauge, but Straight Shot was as much a "gauge" as Heavy Thrust was. With this turned into "weaker refulgent", which in itself has the problem of being only 20 potency higher than Heavy Shot, makes this a loss in the amount to press.
• Palisade. Gave a much needed defensive buff flavor. Confused to see this move being gone from the Role Action list when Troubadour's current implementation is essentially a role action.
• Refresh and OG Tactician. While effectively no longer needed, counts towards the overall list of missing and *formerly used* buttons, adding to the amount of choices a player could make.
• Foe Requiem: Mentioned before, but will have to mention it again.

Ofcourse, having all of these back would be a pipe dream in itself, but having some of these back would contribute to the amount of support a bard can even do.


Final Note
On average, all ranged dps looks to be in a pretty bad spot right now. The damage and support given to other classes simply does not hold up to bringing another melee dps, for example. The 1% boost provided with a ranged dps in the party does not fix this issue either, so a ranged dps' party position in general, for all 3 of its kind, is a shaking one. If there is to be upgrades to the support kit a bard has, there should not need to be any changes to its personal dps as the support changes can be used to effectively cover this. Personally I believe the supporting classes of Dancer and Bard should make a composition better than a composition comprised mainly of personal dps jobs, and while not by an incredibly large amount, make it so that their role in the party can be felt as hard as a healer, a tank and that one dps that just hit a really good direct critical hit during a burst phase. There has to be a skill ceiling that allows saying "Yeah, we brought a Bard / Dancer", rather than them being equals to bringing another dps at highest level. Let it be a reward for completing the "party composition" that the game was ultimately designed for. This is for both bard and dancer, the two "supporting" jobs in the game.

(Quick edit, can we buff the repertoire procs to 40% on lower levels too? 20% is awful and running any synced content now is just... no.)

I don't feel that the old BRD design would have taken away from DNC.

The ultimate question for the Bard community to decide however is if they are okay with lowering their DPS in favor of adding party DPS buffs? This is a key question you must let the Development team know in one loud, unison voice.

It's weird how we ended up here. The essence of bard is a supporter who rouses their allies through song and music. Based on that identity you'd expect it to have by far the highest support ability, and trashcan personal dps, and not be a ranger/archer. Dancer would feel more natural in the middle with less support than bard, but fairly high personal dps using its ring blades. I'm not saying they should completely rework everything, it's just odd how a bard ended up being the one positioned in the middle and still getting archery moves like apex arrow instead of bard stuff.

"The word "bard" ordinarily puts folk in mind of those itinerant minstrels, fair of voice and nimble of finger, who earn their coin performing in taverns and the halls of great lords. Few know, however, that bards in fact trace their origins back to the bowmen of eld, who sang in the heat of battle to fortify the spirits of their companions.
In time, their impassioned songs came to hold sway over the hearts of men, inspiring their comrades to great feats and granting peace unto those who lay upon the precipice of death."

There are 2 types of people that played bard. One that never wanted to be more than the starting archer job and those that embraced what SE told us bard was on their job guide. I desperately miss the identity of being a bard. As a bard main, I have even stopped raiding. I left my static after the changes. The job just lost it's feeling. I love being a support class. Feeling helpful. I love helping others more so than helping myself. I never cared about doing massive damage. It was a bout making others shine during a fight.
Apex arrow is very underwhelming and make the songs all feel selfish to fill a gauge that has little impact.
Shadowbite feels awkward to use because you are applying dots to a single target in a mob and hoping it doesn't die before you get to use shadowbite.
Monks Mantra and Dancer's Improv feel more useful than Bard's Nature's Minne because they are party wide instead of single target.
Warden's Paean is very situational.
And with all the selfish song changes, Battle Voice still does not affect the bard themselves. They still need others to give them a similar boost.
I just wish that the Devs would have let us have 2 support jobs instead of hollowing out bard to make dancer shine. Which sadly, I love playing dancer for the same reason I once loved bard.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

It's weird how we ended up here. The essence of bard is a supporter who rouses their allies through song and music. Based on that identity you'd expect it to have by far the highest support ability, and trashcan personal dps, and not be a ranger/archer. Dancer would feel more natural in the middle with less support than bard, but fairly high personal dps using its ring blades. I'm not saying they should completely rework everything, it's just odd how a bard ended up being the one positioned in the middle and still getting archery moves like apex arrow instead of bard stuff.

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Honestly, in this regard I really liked the concept ARR Bard went with, especially as balanced around a single caster and not too much healer DPS (thus making Foes less of the be-all-end-all). You were alternatively commando and commander, burst and sustain. When singing songs (MB or AP), your damage was decreased. Without them, you were putting out top-tier burst. You surgical strike capabilities and strong party recuperation -- just not both at the same time.

Personally, I hate passive rDPS. In general, I find pure damage raid buffs, outside of short and significant bursts, to be the least interesting. And while there's no way we could make MB or AP work as they did back then, I'd sooner have something like those (and their issues, even) than songs be replaced by, rather than be able to run alongside, personal damage mechanics and passive rDPS as we had in SB. Don't get me wrong -- I love the variance. I just don't think songs were the logical choice for their activator/cycler, and I hate the idea that we should never have to take into consideration the composition we're playing with before choosing our buff -- or, alternatively, that buffs of different types are so inherently impossible to balance -- that there can only ever be one buff type, Damage (or that which likewise has zero additional synergetic elements).

I want back buff types, and for them to be more distinct. (Heck, I don't see Dancer "shining" at all at Bard's expense; Dancer hardly seems much of a "Support DPS" to me in terms of its actual gameplay.) I don't think we need to gut Bard's pDPS to do that, either, though. It's enough that damage is reduced proportionate to the buffs output while that output is being produced, be that through %damage loss or shared resource costs or any combination of the like.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

Well I'm happy to give that feedback Yoshi-P, and thank you for at least considering it. I would much rather sacrifice personal DPS to get more of my job identity back (although I feel both our personal DPS and our Party utility seem below average, especially when compared to Monk and DRG). I'm totally ok with being on the lower side like Dancer as that is what a Bard should be, a mobile ranged DPS that brings out the best in their team with a solid burst rotation.

My current suggestions to the devs would be is to bring back Foe's Requiem, but reworked into an oGCD ability on a 2 minute cool down that lasts about 15 seconds. I also would suggest a reworking of Warden's Paen, as currently it is an ability that see's little to no use and many Bard's take it off their bar's entirely. I would love if it provided a damage buff of some kind to a single party member, but if you want to keep it non damage flavored, a defensive buff of some kind like a mixture of Palisade/Apocatastasis would feel very good too. I also feel that the buff to Minne to work on oGCD feels great, but it's double on the cooldown time makes the ability much more difficult to get use from outside of anything except organized static play. I would like to see it lowered to it's original duration. Finally Battle Voice being lowered to two minutes but also have the percentage brought back to 10 or 15% would make it feel a bit more impactful.

If personal DPS need's to be brought down after these changes then so be it. I happily accept that trade off. It will make us feel more like a Bard again and give us back one of our most iconic abilities in Foe's Requiem that many of us feel should not have been removed. Then in the futre expansions some more utility based around the Soul Voice change would be awesome.

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So they really try to make way for DNC by removing Bard identity. Who would have thought.
But if anything.

1) Just remove Apex Arrow and make Soul Gauge just for new FR. Add new name into "Song of Oblivion". The moment it's filled, the Soul Gauge is drained for 15 sec duration.
2) Minne AOE for the nerfed cooldown they give. If not AOE, then reduce cooldown back to Sb.
3) Play 3 songs give a party buff 15sec, I don't want 3 song emote abilities. Det%, DH% or whatever
4) BV gives something else than the buff of the 3 songs rotation.
5) Warden Paean....It just rarely ever remove anything in savage raid or extreme. I wonder if it gives minor counter effect for regular afflictions that can't be removed in savage but is in normal dungeon like: Poison/burn = small regen, blind = partial acc up from what's reduced, heavy = partial movementspeed up, confusion = reduced duration, etc. where only one effect can be partially countered at a time randomly.

Minne really is a good skill, and has a number of solid use cases this Savage tier, you just need to be cognizant of it as an option. Yes, Mantra comparison, but all in all I think the 90s cooldown is appropriate. Wouldn't mind a second charge though, to make it a bit more flexible.

Anyway, shower thought a way to get Foe back in without just feeling bland and redundant with BV. To reiterate, I think the most important goal here is to make Bard's support kit something they think and make decisions about. i.e. returning Foe as just a mindless button you press every 2 minutes would be a failure in my book. Feels come first - whatever the numerical outcome is, is pretty secondary in my opinion.


Core idea - return to the old magic damage idea, and split BV and Foe into physical/magical mirrors of each other that can't both be active at once.

:: Battle Voice / Ability / 180s cooldown / Max charges: 2 -- Increases direct hit rate on physical attacks for nearby party members by 30%. Cannot be used while Foe Requiem is active. Duration: 20s

:: Foe Requiem / Ability / 180s cooldown / Max charges: 2 -- Increases direct hit rate on magical attacks for nearby party members by 30%. Cannot be used while Battle Voice is active. Duration: 20s


(Note, these still would NOT affect self. 180s stuff doesn't play nice with our song cycle and it'd be bad to have a push/pull of using these songs for ourselves vs. for the party.)

All told, I'd expect this to increase Bard's raid contribution by arouuuund 400 or so. Considering that all three ranged probably need 800ish in buffs if SAM/NIN are to be brought up to meet DRG, this is well beyond safe to do and leaves ample room to touch up other parts of the kit.

But most importantly, you'd change Bard support from "just press the thing every 3m" to an AST-like decision system, where you have some timing flexibility and can be paid off for figuring out which song is best to use when.

Yet at the same time, newbies could just jam the buttons and not be too bad off, so the skill floor here would be okay. And, it's quite a different dynamic from what Dancer is doing, so I don't think there'd be a flavor overlap concern.


From there, I could see an expansion into a model where all of Bard's support skills have a second charge (including Troub, and then buff the other two in different ways) as a theme, with a rework of Warden's sadly required.

My favorite idea for WP so far is to make it like Excogitation, since the structure and flavor of the skill match that, just give it worse numbers than the real deal obviously.

Or, instead of or in addition to poking at the other songs, I'd certainly like Empyreal Charges, as well as making Muse 15s to fix some timing things. Apex could probably be safely buffed or moved to oGCD, alongside the Foe/BV idea, to fill out the total buff allowance.

Totally agree with the original post, Bard doesn’t have any issues to play or with its DPS numbers but it’s gone down a totally opposite road than before in terms of what it is and does. I really hope they take the feedback so many players are giving about Bard on board; both here and on other forums (I believe this is also something being brought up on JP forums).

Also I agree that I would take a personal DPS drop in a heartbeat. Bard has never been a high DPS low utility job, and there’s been various suggestions on how they could have continued with the original Bard ‘identity’ that has existed since 2.0, without making it guaranteed raid spot or making Dancer redundant.

Honestly besides the damage drop the 2.0/3.0 versions of songs were my absolute favourite iteration of the songs. It felt satisfying and ‘Bard-y’ to use, there was decision making based on MP usage and when to take the cast time hit, they always felt like they contributed something and could easily fit into your damage rotation if you needed them to, but not so easily that they’re just set and forget. Plus it’s easier to balance if it has a cast time, I know they’re hugely unpopular and I’ll be burned at the stake for even considering their return, but I feel like some kind of buff spells like how the songs used to work, but with a reduced 1.5 sec cast, would really bring back the ‘Bard’ feel without drowning out the ‘Archer’ aspects

They could add something like DNC's "dance partner" effect to BRD songs. BRD chooses a partner and whenever they're playing a song said partner gets a buff. Each song could have a unique buff so that the BRD would need to rotate between players any time they sing a new song to get maximum effectiveness from them. They could make this a static, set % buff or a buff that starts out very low and starts to ramp up whenever you get DoT procs. Something like this should be easier to balance since you're only buffing one party member at a time while still letting the player feel like they're supporting their party members in some way.

Buffing one player at a time is harder to balance, not easier, and starts to encroach upon Dancer flavor territory besides. We can very very easily look at the behavior of things like Battle Voice, Litany, Chain, Trick, Devotion, etc. to get a baseline for what we can expect from different party-wide buff ideas.

With single target buffs, it's much murkier to calculate what the optimal times look like because you have four dps and perhaps even two tanks to consider for any given window. It's a big wait and see at best, to see what the top AST speedrunners are able to do with the new cards, and even that is a really different dynamic than what's being described.

I think maybe they should Introduce Ranger with crossbows and make BRD more supportive.

Double post...

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

Buffing one player at a time is harder to balance, not easier, and starts to encroach upon Dancer flavor territory besides. We can very very easily look at the behavior of things like Battle Voice, Litany, Chain, Trick, Devotion, etc. to get a baseline for what we can expect from different party-wide buff ideas.

With single target buffs, it's much murkier to calculate what the optimal times look like because you have four dps and perhaps even two tanks to consider for any given window. It's a big wait and see at best, to see what the top AST speedrunners are able to do with the new cards, and even that is a really different dynamic than what's being described.

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When I say easier to balance, I mean easier for the dev team as they're obviously afraid to go back to having the meta defined by jobs that bring too much utility (which I personally feel like is a losing battle since there's always going to be a meta and jobs who are chosen over others, but hey). I am by no means a developer or an expect at balancing but I feel like one job having a 5% crit buff(or whatever the buff may be) for 80 seconds is less likely to break the game than a whole group of 8 receiving said buff instead. My idea was to bring back more utility to the class with enough impact that it doesn't feel completely useless, but not enough to make it game breaking or a mandatory pick for every group.

Do I have any idea if that would accomplish that? Absolutely not. But it was just a suggestion and suggestions are what they were asking for. If enough people give their suggestions no matter how good they are then the dev team may just be able to make something cohesive and working out of them. *shrug*

Only loosely on topic but I love harpbows. I think Gandiva (anima series) is the only bard weapon that looks more harp than bow. It can be dyed too so that's the one I often use when I play bard to make it feel a little more like a bard than archer.

The dev fear of too much utility is irrational anyway, and easy to cover for. They've proven that they're capable of doing this if you look at the three ranged vs. one another - all fairly close if you assume a top-rate dance partner. If anything they undershot on Dancer a little.

Tuning for optimal-at-the-time jobs getting buffs is super hard to account for, and a constant +2.5-3% net damage for one rotating job is not substantially (if at all) smaller than adding 0.5% overall damage to the party. But the latter is an easier number to nail down with more precision.

I think, broadly, that Bards just want to be interacting with their support kit in a way that feels like they're putting effort into helping the party and getting a payoff for it. Whether it's your idea, or people wanting Foe back as an MP spender, or etc. the idea is that people want to spend more of their energy in combat thinking about what they're doing to help the party.

If, in the end, it's numerically nowhere near as much party-damage as Dancer or Ninja bring, I don't think people would really have a problem with that. It's more about feel and flavor than data output, I think.

Maybe just for added absurdity I'll post a new thread just trying to talk about these sorts of principles without getting into the nitty gritty of specific suggestions? That might be more useful feedback than the kind of wild all over the place stuff that the other threads are resulting in.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

The dev fear of too much utility is irrational anyway, and easy to cover for. They've proven that they're capable of doing this if you look at the three ranged vs. one another - all fairly close if you assume a top-rate dance partner. If anything they undershot on Dancer a little.

Tuning for optimal-at-the-time jobs getting buffs is super hard to account for, and a constant +2.5-3% net damage for one rotating job is not substantially (if at all) smaller than adding 0.5% overall damage to the party. But the latter is an easier number to nail down with more precision.

I think, broadly, that Bards just want to be interacting with their support kit in a way that feels like they're putting effort into helping the party and getting a payoff for it. Whether it's your idea, or people wanting Foe back as an MP spender, or etc. the idea is that people want to spend more of their energy in combat thinking about what they're doing to help the party.

If, in the end, it's numerically nowhere near as much party-damage as Dancer or Ninja bring, I don't think people would really have a problem with that. It's more about feel and flavor than data output, I think.

Maybe just for added absurdity I'll post a new thread just trying to talk about these sorts of principles without getting into the nitty gritty of specific suggestions? That might be more useful feedback than the kind of wild all over the place stuff that the other threads are resulting in.

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That's because people want every job to solo without relying on other jobs whatsoever, which is ironic considering it is an RPG and JRPG MMO at that.
Meaning, synergies and reliance on other members are not welcomed to some of that mains and raiders hence we get the super linear hyper self-sufficient jobs all over this expansion and the identities of some jobs that was not just about damage are just gone poof into worse clones of another.