Please rework NIN jutsus

The way I see it, Ninjutsu mechanics have not yet been reworked to fit the trend of other classes for this expansion. Specifically, 'streamlining' to make them more accessible and easier to play. Thus I can only guess that SE is still working on finalizing an overhaul for the class.

However, despite what SE will internally come to conclude, I would like to share my personal opinion of the main problem, from me playing the class as is: Jutsus are extremely underwhelming.

1) The potencies/effects are low and weak. They also do not feel rewarding. Compared to for example Monk buffs, Bard procs, etc. they are weak in both balance, and psychology.

2) The hidden recast timers on Jutsus. Awful awful mechanic. And hidden.

3) The chance of actual failure (bunny). "Sure blm can also fail in their rotation" yes but they don't literally get made fun of by the game for it. And if they get their rotation right they are "worth 1.5 ninjas dps".

To fix this, ideally the Jutsus should be able to impersonate the following traits:

1) Does not require a lock-on to cast. Similar to Apex Arrow of bard, but with much reduced range and width, so can be theorycrafted as single-target, melee dps.

2) All come with at least 1 additional effect. For example, elemental DoTs, debuff that can be exploded with next jutse, various combo effects depending on next jutsu cast, while reducing recast timers of all jutsus with successful combo chains. Thus inheriting and impersonating the "mudra" type logic, but at a larger scale. Yet different from traditional Combo potencies, as it is technically a never-ending, unfixed combo train.

3) The Bunny. Perhaps make it trigger 5 second CD instead of full 20 second Ninjutsu CD, while reducing recast timers of all jutsus. Or just redesign it.

4) (lack of) Ultimate-Jutsu. Firstly, Ten Chi Jin is much more tedious than say triple-cast, barrage, while being lackluster psychologically. While technically it is op when paired with Bunshin, in actual practice you have to manually sync the CDs, the Ninki Gauge, Ninjutsu recast timers, raid buff timers, it is not a flowing, enjoyable experience. And it does not make you feel like a magical ninja. Ideally it should additionally serve to provide utility similar to Requiescat, making all your jutsus ranged while under its effects, lasting longer but less potent (thus less pressure to sync perfectly with Bunshin and all the raid buffs). Thus feeling like an "ultimate" jutsu. Edit: Shuriken being a ranged attack should be upgrade to multiple-Shuriken under "ultimate" effect. Be it a single proc or time-based ultimate effect. Also, moving cancels Ten Chi Jin which is annoying, as brought up by many other players.

5) Recast timers and the Ninki gauge. Atm they are only weakly correlated, awkwardly linked. The Huton buff should also not warrant such a large energy indicator. Just in general, the whole logical structure has not beauty nor form to it. It's just a bunch of criss-crossing procs and a mess of things to keep in mind. While not very impersonating the average image of ninja. If you change the terms and the visuals a bit, could be any other class using lots of resources. Could be a mage class. Could be a monster. It's just underwhelming.

6) Hypothetical idea: Rework away the potency increase modifiers in Kassatsu and Ten Chi Jin to be more innate within the jutsus themselves as outlined above, or more external via passive procs and automatic triggers based on the Ninki gauge, with the prior (current) Ninki-based actions to become percentage-chance based triggers. Ninjas already have to mash so many buttons manually. Your hellfrog summon coming to automatically aid you every now and then is just reasonable. And introducing some luck-based, chance-based, merry happy-go-lucky type playstyle mechanics also fits the rogue/ninja characterization.

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Ninja also suffers in these additional areas:

4) Trick Attack. Some people say 10% dps increase is very useful. I say that it has less duration than some other raid buffs, is not actually a buff so is only useful for 1 target, requires Suiton aka. long build-up to cast (unlike for example monk and drg just 1-button instant), and psychologically, isn't as shiny as for example Drg buffs. It has a (hypothetical) 60 second CD which is shorter than other buffs, but a well-placed, well-synced buff with 50% more duration and timed with burn phases is arguably more valuable than a random 10% increase every now and then.

5) Shade Shift. Compared to bards who get a heal increase, debuff negation, raid-wide damage decrease, and also a raid buff, this ability is just awkward while partially overlapping with Bloodbath. It's also got a long CD. Feint is technically useful, but is less straightforward than direct damage reduce, and not as reliable as purposefully designed raid-saver CDs meant to catch tankbusters.

6) Shukuchi. While a stackable teleport is useful, it's more like a must-have nowadays for melee dps seeing how the new encounters are. Moreso, it's a targeted teleport so it cannot be used like a panic button similar to Brd's repelling shot, or used as a stress-free gap-closer via targeted action as with some other classes. Bard did away with flaming shot a long time ago because SE decided landscape-targeting abilities are really, not likable for classes already having lots of button-mashing. So why this design for Shukuchi still? Also it's not impersonating enough of a ninja characterization.
Hypothetical improvement: make it cast on press instead of mouse-click. Sync it with hide (though the low-level job quests will have to be redesigned as it uses this mechanic).

Edit: 7) Mug. Awkward placement of a skill. Needn't say more, prior sections made my point already.

All in all, even with the few aforementioned problems and possible changes, it will be a metric heap-ton of discussion, theorycrafting, testing, then possibly new animations and coding on SE's part, and post-development quality-checking to make sure everything is compatible with everything e.g. all past quests, dungeons, etc. So even if SE is already working on what efficient and slimmed-down a fix as they could, it's already a lot of work.
Thus the delay is understandable. However, this only increases expectations for one of the more keystone classes of any RPG. So please fix Ninja.

Thanks.

I think if they make Mudras 1 button combos for fuma,raiton,katon that would be a great start.
Then upgrade fuma to hyosho ranryu when kassatsu is used
Then upgrade katon to Goka Mekkyaku when kassatsu is used

You could then stick to using Raiton for when kassatsu is on CD.

Doton, suiton, huton should be 2 button combos now (delete hyoton? anyone even use this?)

No need for 3 button combos. They could implement a utility for downtime if they still want 3 button combos.
Maybe a huton with a full duration and put the 2 button huton a shorter timer maybe like 30 seconds for when you derp and drop huton and maybe
also a 3 button mudra to refill ninki guage to a certain amount

As far as shukuchi

/ac "Shukuchi" <t>

this macro has been amazing.

Pretty solid suggestions overall. On the trick attack issue ive been saying for a long time it should be either totally removed or turned into a self buff only. The supposed raid contribution is Ninjas biggest problem.

I agree with most of what the OP says. Especially that Rabbit thing is probably the worst idea ever brought the game. They need to make Ten Chi Jin moveable too instead of us being stuck at one place while the boss does its killing AOE on us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IBLazORI

I think if they make Mudras 1 button combos for fuma,raiton,katon that would be a great start.
Then upgrade fuma to hyosho ranryu when kassatsu is used
Then upgrade katon to Goka Mekkyaku when kassatsu is used

You could then stick to using Raiton for when kassatsu is on CD.

Doton, suiton, huton should be 2 button combos now (delete hyoton? anyone even use this?)

No need for 3 button combos. They could implement a utility for downtime if they still want 3 button combos.
Maybe a huton with a full duration and put the 2 button huton a shorter timer maybe like 30 seconds for when you derp and drop huton and maybe
also a 3 button mudra to refill ninki guage to a certain amount

As far as shukuchi

/ac "Shukuchi" <t>

this macro has been amazing.

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tbh just replace katon and hyoton with their with the upgrades everyone else has skills that do this why can't we? the base ice spell is worthless anyway

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Originally Posted by Tenryou

tbh just replace katon and hyoton with their with the upgrades everyone else has skills that do this why can't we? the base ice spell is worthless anyway

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I feel we should delete the ice spell Hyoton, or give it another use, and just have fuma upgrade to Hyosho ranryu since they both are SHuriken abilities.
Katon > goka mekkyaku should remain the same but i believe both fuma and katon should just be 1 button mudras, to help players with latency issues.

I only even used Hyoton in PvP because that's where it was must useful there. I was getting chased by somehow when I had low HP. Used Hyoton to freeze them in place and run.

Personally I'd like to see the following changes:
1) Make the Jutsus consistent. There is nothing more frustrating than messing your whole opener up because one of your TCJ inputs got eaten.
2) If TA is our signature move that we are balanced around, please let is have some gameplay. Maybe something like AST seals? When the NIN is executing a Mudra from front, flank or rear they get a Weakness Exploit or something that determines the effect of the next TA? Following that TA would be avaiable whenever its of CD, no Suiton needed.
3) Maybe make Suiton the move to activate kagebushin? Dunno, 3 step Mudras need a cooler effect.

Also, give me the choice between Rogue and Ninja movement styles plz...

I know a some people dont want the 3 step mudras anymore..but personally i felt they were part of ita identity. (Also you know... Naruto, etc.)

They could just get rid of bunny, or keep bunny, just have it reset the nin timer (its a loss of dps like it should but not so punishing and demoralizing). Also, why not just allow us weapon skills while weaving mudras? Keep mudras on their own gcd. Let weapon skills not mess up ninjutsu. So you can weave mudras in while you attack then cast the jutsu.

This would cut down on the downtime between attacks when using a jutsu, which hownit is now is even more punishing if failed. (Would also give the server time to process.... tho id say make it client side anyway but w/e)

Also, trick attack. Increase duration to 15 sec, make it only benefit the ninja and one other person, using shadewalker to designate that person.

Edit: statement i posted didnt sound how i wanted it to mean

I like having 2 and 3-step mudras, I just want to make sure they're worth the time they use to cast since they clip the GCD so bad. I do understand that the ping issues cause problems for certain players, which is something that is more important to me than 2 and 3-step mudras. Ideally, I would like them to find a way to appease everyone, but that's the real rub, huh.

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Originally Posted by TheGrimace

I like having 2 and 3-step mudras, I just want to make sure they're worth the time they use to cast since they clip the GCD so bad. I do understand that the ping issues cause problems for certain players, which is something that is more important to me than 2 and 3-step mudras. Ideally, I would like them to find a way to appease everyone, but that's the real rub, huh.

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you know i'd be ok with a pot increase to make up for mudra clipping gcd. Also wish they'd buff pot on out gcds and some of our ogcds ***cough DwD/Assassnate mug***

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tenryou

tbh just replace katon and hyoton with their with the upgrades everyone else has skills that do this why can't we? the base ice spell is worthless anyway

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Hey now. Hyoton is useful for when you're inputting mudras and lol lag because it's server side, so your third mudra doesn't go through. Still feels bad, but unlike the rabbit, you're still doing damage.

The Rabbit either needs to be activated instantly, and put Mudras straight on cooldown, instead of making you use it.
Or there needs to be a benefit to using it, to hitting that extra button, something like 'Reduces Mudra cooldown by 5s".

does the rabbit really need to stay though

I'd like the rabbit as a minion. I'm fine with it being removed from the job.

The rabbit should stay, don't add it as a minion. Playing ninja is difficult, but in previous expansions, rewarding because of our deep party utility. With all of those gone, and our extremely mudra heavy damage rotation, it feels terrible, and not worth the effort just for trick attack.

Also, has anyone gotten hand cramps because of the heavy mudra use now? My pinky fingers are killin' me after raiding for 2 hours.

I would like hyoton more, if there were adds or nobs that needed to be rooted for dpsing down...

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Originally Posted by TaiyouSeishin

I would like hyoton more, if there were adds or nobs that needed to be rooted for dpsing down...

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Ha... nobs... curse my thumbs