Taking what we have, making the most out of it, as well implementing Auto- attack/involved battle system.
Battle system
Dividing Stamina bar, MP bar, TP bar
All moves relating to normal attacks, (Heavy Slash, Pummel, Heavy Stab etc.) use the stamina bar only.
All moves relating to WS's (Concussive Blow II, Red Lotus II, etc) use the TP bar.
All Spells in need of MP (Fire, Cure, etc) draw from the MP bar.
<Abilities that require TP as well as MP will use MP/TP as needed by the ability>
As for Abilities regarding enhancing (Still Precision, Blindside, etc) they have their own timers. so no need to place them on any bar.
Stances
The old Dev team had an interesting look at the battle system regarding stances, would like to see this idea come to life. Can add the 3 stances (Aggressive, Neutral, Defensive) Allowing each stance a noticable look,
With each stance, lets look at Pugilist for an example.
Aggressive stance: Arms up, with legs positioning weight on rear foot, ready to unload an attack. leaving themself open for an attack
Ability: Flurry
Neutral stance: Arms at waist height, ready to block/strike, standing on the balls of feet, transfering weight back and forth, allowing for evasive counters and striking.
Ability: Pummel
Defensive stance: Arms up in defensive position guarding face. weight being transfered between the legs almost bouncing back and forth ready to dodge/evade an attack.
Ability: Light Strike
Now with each stance comes different traits, Allowing the player to jump between the stances to maximize Damage or Defense. this would add a more involved battle system with jumping from say a DD to Tank all depending on how the battle evolves, or gaining TP in a Defensive stance while soloing, then jumping through to the Aggressive stance to preform a WS then back to the Defensive stance to resume, taking in the timing of the monsters attacks. to limit any damage that may be taken to a minimal.
Aggressive stance: High attack power, Low evasion, Low defense.
Neutral stance: Moderate attack power/evasion/defense.
Defensive stance: Low attack power, High evasion/defense
Auto-attack
With this idea in place, now SE can add a toggle for Auto-attack on/off in the menu. with Auto-attack on. the Game would maximize the stamina depending on the stance the player is in (useing the stamina gauge and amounts for each move already in place) All the attacks would need to be added to the action bar in order to be used, regardless if auto-attack is on or off. For the game to know what abilities would be used per stance, (Attack stance: Flurry would need be in the action bar, as would Light Strike for Defensive etc) SE can also just add them like they do with the basic attack (Light strike, Light stab etc).
As for those who would like to take full control of their character, they will have the ability to toggle Auto-attack off, allowing them to use the attacks when they see fit.
Would be very helpful to allow use of templates (FF11 had macro books, allowing you to create macros for multiple jobs) should work same fashion for say Action bars. to switch between a Tank/DD/Healer role per class, just make a "Book, Template" that you can load for when you switch between roles/classes.
This brings an interesting idea I got from reading the Pugilist forums. now Monk from FF11 had a kick attack, SE could add a copy move (kick attacks) for each move from Pugilist (Pummel, Flurry, as well as the WS's) add a slider to determine the % between kick attacks or punching. to help create ones playing style alittle farther while useing the auto-attack. This would not apply while auto-attack is off due to player being in full control.
Ability points/Cross class abilities
One method I could think of for this, would be to have abilities for the class in question cost 0 points (Pugilist abilities on Pugilist class, etc for all classes), also seperate the Tiers to their own timers (Jarring Strike I, II. Cure I, II). As for cross class abilities, can just increase the cost and or lowering the total amount of points one would have to use for cross class abilities. incouraging players to stick to their own class abilities as well giving them some freedom to experiment. Also adjust the affinity between abilities for cross class, limit some abilities from being cross classed (if required), as well as a limiting factor of the "required rank" to use an ability.
Stats/points
Keep both Physical level and Job rank.
Only change would be to add more stats, MP/HP (separate from MND/VIT), AGI, allowing more freedom for players to place points (tweak) their main role (much like say Merits in FF11).
The classes would rank up with a base stat per job per rank (kind of like FF11) Each rank would have a cap on the stats being displayed in blue when reached (adding in the physical points).
This would help players build a class more to their liking aswell keep the class within a set "role"
An example would be.. lets say GLA. the player would like a more Mage style (DRK style) so their physical points would be placed in INT, MP, PIETY. this would allow the player to cast some spells and play more of a mage style.
Limiting factors would be amount of INT, MP, PIETY, as well the affinity of spells/points cost to set them on a cross class.
Same Class, GLA that would like increase a DD role, or Tank role. can increase stats towards STR or DEF as well HP.
The Class "base" stats will not be capped, allowing the players the freedom to play and design their own with in that class through physical level and points.
These are just a few ideas I can think of that would take what we currently have and adjusting them... to allow for options such as auto-attack. Hopefuly it makes sense (I'm very bad at putting ideas to pen)
Thank you for reading. :)
Way to implement Auto-attack
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03-21-2011, 11:52 AMShadowskillWay to implement Auto-attack
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03-21-2011, 11:55 AMviion
This is getting way too deep into something very simple, all you need to do is not let normal attack use up stamina and thats it lol.
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03-21-2011, 01:13 PMOmegaNovaios
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...cussion/page10
Please read this for changing the battle system. It's simple and involves auto attack. Maybe you can work your idea around this/change to this so it can have an actual thread. -
03-21-2011, 02:24 PMKilta_Firelotus
i like everything minus auto attack. Sorry I like playing my games not watching them. :3 no matter how fast it is.
I love the stances very much and i congradulate your details.
even simple features need to be deeply explained.
They should set up this system like either marrowwind esk or dcuo esk.
morrowwinds/oblivions attack was "light slashing" was repeatitive button pressing. consumed less fatigue per swipe but also did less dmg. But holding the button till a stronger attack is issued. This will use more fatigue. Abd have it off the action bar and on an attack button. Like controler is the r2 button. Idk what would be a good keyboard button.
this will allow more fluidness in selecting your different weapon skills, spells, and abilities.
I think what will fix the combat is have the attacks off the action bar.
idk how well this will be on keyboard though. but controler will see more fluid action imo.
I just really don't wanna go back to auto attack. I got so bored in a few mmo watching my character. -
03-21-2011, 02:58 PMLinnear
Playing Drk heavily in XI was actually a lot of fun, everyone said they were just auto attack bots and up until the 60s that was pretty true, but that was because interesting ailities didn't beome available till later. Drain II, Dreadspikes, Seighan, Hasso, third eye, Stun, Souleater,Aspir, Weapon Bash, Bio and the various absorbes that could be done were actually time conuming. Unfortunantly there were not enough mobs that could be easily aspird and keeping your drk skill capped to use them was rough and convincing RDMs for refresh was intollerabe. As such a lot of Drks did not get to fully enjoy their class while leveling becuase they were always hampered by others not palying with them and lack of mana. If you got these abilities much much much earlier in the game , like say most of them by level 40 and better mana conversions it would not have felt as much of an auto attack bot.
Granted the blaance of the class would of been off, but it was not designed to be played using all your abilites all the time. In FFXIV I was hoping for a similar mechanic but where you got your abilities sooner, smaller CDs different resources such as CDs opposed to hard mana caps, (still have mana but let me last longer than 10 spells before I run out.) IN such a system, auto attacks still work and still add something to the game play, my auto attacks are more important than a whms auto attack, makes sence, therefore I can gear appropiatly and make decissions on it.
No idea if I am making my point here or not but basically what I am trying to say is that faster combat is possible with auto attacks, while not just making autoattacks a DoT but you have to design around it and SE isnt'. Should they? mabey, but I don't think you can say that auto attack will kill the flow of combat, and reult in you just watching your character, like you did in the first 40 ish levels of FFXI. -
03-21-2011, 04:01 PMKilta_Firelotus
Auto attack can be fast and I still hate it. Why? I'm not the one pressing the kill button. I'm watching the game do it. Plus with Auto attack heavy cookie cutting will happen because of trying to get the most out of it. Auto attack relies too much on weapon delay. Or is just some low damage animation between your abilities (WoW ish). What got old was all dd doing /nin because of having 2 weapons or shadows cux their single weapon was to fast due to haste staking.
I always refreshed the drk if they used their spells most don't. The reason, is because it took away from dd. Only spell i seen drk use mostly is stun. And only on boss fights. -
03-21-2011, 04:30 PMLinnearQuote:
Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus
Bad drks and the peopel /nin were nurfing their damage, most people in XI had no idea how much damage they were actually doing. I was part of the community that parsed and used windower, and spell cast mods and all that fun stuff. As such, I had more information to optimize my character, by casting the right spells at the right times, you increased your damage, it was not a novelty to do it, it actually helped, but people don't noticethings like that cause there wasnt' enough information to make decissions on. /nin was easly a 20-30% damage cut for most classes with the except of a few like war when rampage was broken and dnc. Anyway, the point is, the problem wasn't auto attacking, it was people making uninformed decissions, and SE not giving them the tools to collect the inforation easily or effectly.
Damage meters and such are a big help to an MMO community, SE hasnt' asknowledged this yet, I suspect it is becuse they know their game is for casuals and like it that way, but all this doens't defeat the fact that you lose something by taking out auto attack and noone has addressed that yet.
If you "feel" that it disrupts your game play then you are free to think that as it is personl and opinionated but you can't say that auto attack takes away from game varieties becuase the lower end of the pyramid thinks /nin helps their damage. -
03-21-2011, 04:32 PMOmegaNovaiosIt's not the speed of the auto attack it's the speed of combat. In FFXI it took about 45 seconds to build TP up to use a WS. In FFXIV it takes about 5 seconds to build TP up to use a WS. In the meantime you can use any action you want that doesn't require TP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus
Also, you can equip any action now unlike FFXI and it's effective because it isn't based on skills (Elemental, Enhancing, Enfeebling, etc.) so you could use Cure or Refresh yourself as DRK essentially. -
03-21-2011, 04:35 PMChardrizard
make auto attack optional, win win.
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03-21-2011, 04:50 PMKira75While I know many probably want auto-attack, I know some like myself would prefer to have control over ones actions. More specifically on a class like Archer where your attacks aren't free. Making this optional seems like the best option, turn it on when u need or want it, turn it off when you don't. Preferably I would never turn it on myself though, as I like to control my character continuously, more to do, less staring and watching.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chardrizard
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03-21-2011, 06:38 PMAshelyRiot
I just want to get rid of all the stupid spamming of every ability people having on there bars. Sorry I'm just not a fan of it. Never had a problem with auto attack in XI but I understand some people's grips and concern with class such as archer which includes myself. Archer will just have to shoot their bow like they did before but it had delay so you couldn't spam.
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03-21-2011, 06:51 PMOmegaNovaiosAll we have to do is have regular attack actions stay and have executing those actions toggle auto attack on/off and doesn't interfere with secondary regular attacks either. It's very simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by AshelyRiot
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03-21-2011, 07:01 PMKilta_Firelotus
linnear word to the wise... using mods made you no better. And braging of using said mods can infact get you banned. As windower was against the TOS. Personally I just want teamwork and not ppl (like lin) who take games to seriously that they have to use terms like parse.... thinking they "uberleet" I don't give 2 dung piles how "good" mods make ya as long as your a team player and let the tank... tank idc.
I hate soloist who party. Pretty much finding it amusing to out damage everyone and get hate.
Sorry ppl (like lin) take this game beyond too seriously and need to tone it down. Once you log off all those "bragging rights" don't exist. -
03-21-2011, 07:04 PMBetelgeuzahI think it should be a separate button to toggle auto-attack, as that may get annoying.Quote:
All we have to do is have regular attack actions stay and have executing those actions toggle auto attack on/off and doesn't interfere with secondary regular attacks either. It's very simple.
I can get down with this, but I'd have liked if you explained your reasoning a bit more.Quote:
Battle system
Dividing Stamina bar, MP bar, TP bar
All moves relating to normal attacks, (Heavy Slash, Pummel, Heavy Stab etc.) use the stamina bar only.
All moves relating to WS's (Concussive Blow II, Red Lotus II, etc) use the TP bar.
All Spells in need of MP (Fire, Cure, etc) draw from the MP bar.
<Abilities that require TP as well as MP will use MP/TP as needed by the ability>
As for Abilities regarding enhancing (Still Precision, Blindside, etc) they have their own timers. so no need to place them on any bar.
Essentially, right now there are too many different factors that need be taken into account with any ability. Cooldown, TP/MP, Stamina. Any ability should involve only two of these at most, as the combat is needlessly complicated when you need to consider all three at all times.
I'd like to add, that the spells and the special skills should have a cooldown of their own, while only the attacks and skills without a cooldown or TP/MP cost of their own would use the stamina bar as the "global cooldown".
Yes, a toggle is indeed a good way to make it work.Quote:
With this idea in place, now SE can add a toggle for Auto-attack on/off in the menu.
I don't think these have anything to do with the combat system or auto-attack.. may have been a better idea to make a topic of their own for them (or post in the existing topics if they exist).Quote:
Ability points/Cross class abilities
Stats/points
Overall I can see the system working this way, so this is a good idea. However, where are the tags? -
03-21-2011, 08:39 PMMegaYou dislike people like Linnear because they are better players then your rdm who can't even keep a refresh cycle. Quit picking on people cyber bully. Once again you post in a thread about how you FEEL rather then the actual subject (thats the first post at the very top if you didn't figure it out).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus
Shadowkill I understand what you're suggesting and like it. The different positions easily take over the roll of spamming the various attacks. Wonder if SE will go in a similar direction. They'll probably punish you by requiring you to put your weapon away, change positions and take your weapon back out. -
03-21-2011, 08:51 PMShadowskill
@ Betelgeuzah. With every ability (spells included) they are all subjected to timers, Reason I would split the TP/MP/Stamina bars would
1. Increase the battle pace.
2. When paired with the stances, removes the limiting factor.
3. When removing the Stamina bar to allow auto-attack, Limiting factor is that some abilities (Normal attacks) have a second nature (Light attack = Defense boost, as well evasion. Pummel = increased TP gain)
4. This system would allow the stamina bar to stay in place (main global timer for attacks) without limiting the effects of certain attacks.
5. Spells and enhancing abilities also run off a timer. so there is no need to place them on the stamina bar.
My knowledge is limited to GLA and PUG ( as those are my mains GLA R50, PUG R33 )
As with the auto-attack. with it on would only remove spamming of the main attack buttons (personally I like pressing them). The player will be able to focus on positioning, stances as well finding more ways to use the system to increase their damage. Allowing the freedom to send messages without completely hampering game play.
This idea will tailor to both those in favor of Auto-attack, as well against it (would like full control of their character)
both sides are subjected to the same limitations with neither gaining the upper hand.
Not 100% sure what you refer to on Tags so I am sorry. still very new to Forums.
will try to figure out how to place my in game data at the bottom of my posts like I see on others.
Hopefully this cleared up any questions. Thank you for reading. -
03-21-2011, 09:05 PMBetelgeuzahI think this is primarily why it should be beneficial. I don't think there can be a situation where, from a gameplay perspective both systems (auto-attack on/off) will be completely equal. One approach will end up being the better approach, and everyone will end up using it. However, as a means to communicate during the fight without having to stop the fighting completely this kind of addition would work just fine.Quote:
As with the auto-attack. with it on ... Allowing the freedom to send messages without completely hampering game play.
Even better would be if they could make it so toggling it on and off would complement the other. I mean that they could make toggling it on or off a gameplay function with ways to approach situations differently. If they aren't in a direct competition between each other (as in both are used to accomplish the same thing) their co-existence and relevance would be better ensured, instead of one approach becoming useless after a while.
To make the community team and the developers to read this thread, you need to put a "tag" on it (in this case dev1022, which I can add at this time it seems). The tags are found in the "In Development" forums. If you want to post a thread related to some of the features in the In Development, you should add the proper tag(s) so that those who should notice the thread will!Quote:
Not 100% sure what you refer to on Tags so I am sorry. still very new to Forums.
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03-21-2011, 09:16 PMShadowskill
Oh cool, never knew about the Tags, will need figure how to add that today. regarding if the option is not used by all. it would allow either side to play in a more free environment,
Simply adding a menu in the config, allowing Auto-attack on/off. will settle that for most everyone.
Personally I would like to play with auto-attack off. I like the feeling of full control over the actions during a fight. jumping out of harms way. timing attacks so not caught in the path of say the Diremite special attack. Puks, Buffalo. etc for many others.
How would one... enable the Tag or.. would I need to make a new thread. with it on the title? -
03-21-2011, 09:25 PMBetelgeuzahYep... but let's say that while in concept the two methods would be equal, in practice one comes 5% ahead in efficiency. The community would 'force' you to use the auto-attack because otherwise, well.. you'd perform at 95% efficiency. On the opposite side, if the manual input attacks are deemed as the most effective way of combat those who like auto-attack wouldn't be able to use it without being shunned by the community. That's something they should also take into consideration in my opinion. Making the two systems complement each other (if only through being able to communicate better with auto-attack on while making it easily toggleable) would be in their best interest.Quote:
Personally I would like to play with auto-attack off. I like the feeling of full control over the actions during a fight. jumping out of harms way. timing attacks so not caught in the path of say the Diremite special attack. Puks, Buffalo. etc for many others.
Well, there's a "Tags for this thread" box at the bottom of the page. There you can edit them. I did add one tag in there already though, I'm not sure if others can see it but if you can then there's no need to do anything else.Quote:
How would one... enable the Tag or.. would I need to make a new thread. with it on the title?
To know what number represents what topic, there's the "In Development" forum where every tag is listed with an explanation. -
03-21-2011, 09:32 PMShadowskill
Thank you. I checked the Tag listings. this thread came up. so I think what u did worked. ^.^
Regardless which is better. The player base will be forced one direction or the other. just nice to have the freedom to choose how you would like to play when not in those situations. -
03-21-2011, 11:20 PMShadowskill
Looking through this system, the stances would play a bigger role then the Auto-attack per say.
Examples: End game NM hunting. DD role. you would say turn auto-attack on to allow higher DPS, then stay in a more Aggressive stance. maximizing your DPS.
Tanks would be jumping between stances to deliver WS's and resume the tank role (depending the style of the player) for me Tanking. I would turn Auto-attack off to allow me to time my attacks for avoiding damaging blows (frontal attacks) this may lower my DPS, the trade off would allow less MP for healing, lowering enmity generation of healers. also increase few other aspects on top. though this all depends on the play style of the individual
For solo play, would bring more to the plate. can set auto-attack on. then bounce between stances to max DPS, letting the player have a more relaxed playing field. Same with turning Auto-attack off, giving the player a more hands on feel.
As you stated in last post, there will always be a "set" play style depending on what you are doing. allowing the players to decide what they prefer on how to play. would make the battle system easier to take on, making it friendlier for both sides. -
03-22-2011, 01:18 AMviion
I dont feel like im playing when im hitting the same number over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and again...
I'd like to concentrate on doing other things, hence auto-atk wins. -
03-22-2011, 01:23 AMGod
A way to implement auto attack:
1) Target mob
2) Engage mob
3) Auto attack begins -
03-22-2011, 05:16 PMOmegaNovaiosExactly like FFXIQuote:
Originally Posted by God
How about:
1) Target mob
2) Engage mob
3) Regular attack action toggles on/off auto attack
1UP to FFXI -
03-22-2011, 09:17 PMGodOhhh Variety I like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaNovaios
I can't believe this needs a thread. Auto attack is not hard to do, don't make it complicated or you may as well keep it the way it is. -
03-22-2011, 09:38 PMShadowskill
What would the values of the attacks be based off of?
What would happen to the normal attacks that have added effects like Evasion/defense, TP, Bind, work in a form of a combo attack (Heavy strike to Flurry)?
I know I tend to look to deep at things at times. but just tossing auto-attack on the system as it is. would need little more insight then.. ok auto-attack on/off we are done.
I read through many threads with methods of converting the system as it stands be reworked to allow auto-attack, some pretty good ideas in those threads.
Some classes are easier to implement an auto-attack. Mage, Archery, imo would be very simple to just toss on auto-attack. classes like GLA, PUG, MRD would not be as simple due to the many abilities falling under the normal attack section that would need to be removed or adapted to fit the new system.
What seems simple from the surface may not always be so simple once look at all outcomes from that one "simple" addition of, in this case Auto-attack.
If SE was to implement a FF11 style of auto-attack, they would need to introduce a delay on weapons. remove all these abilities like Light strike, Pummel, Broad swing, etc. to fit the auto-attack of the FF11 system. would work great imo.
I was just taking what we had at our disposal then working it around what SE had on their site, then finding a balanced method that would allow both auto-attack on/off. without changing the battle system to much from how it is atm. -
03-22-2011, 10:00 PMGun_Anam
I mentioned on one of the many other threads about this same topic how to implement an auto-attack to keep everyone happy.
Add an auto-attack skill that can be added to your skill bar. It will provide a basic attack that uses no stamina and generates no TP and will continue to attack until another skill is used. Implementing it ths way keeps the combat involving and allows people to get attacks in when they've no stamina, while still making people work for their TP.
Implementing an auto-attack any other way would require reworking stamina, TP gain, and almost every attack buff skill in the game, plus it would also require all mob AI to be altered to include auto-attacks. -
03-22-2011, 10:38 PMShadowskill
Not true. the system I go through. would allow the Stamina bar to be used as it is. by separating the MP/TP/Stamina bars from each other. You will still be able to focus on your WS's while the "auto-attack" keeps you normal attacks cycled through an optimized usage controlled by the game. only differences would be. introduction of the "stances" from the FF14 site. To determine which normal attacks would be handled under each of those stance.
As for THM, CON. They would just have a standard attack that would be cycled thru the stamina bar by the game, then the player can focus on what they need to do whether it be healing the group. DoT, Magic bursts through the BR. or nuking the monster for added DPS.
Much like your idea, just the "other attack" would not take anything away from the TP gain.
Would also allow the player to turn the auto-attack feature off allowing almost the exact same play style, just you are in control of when you would attack.
This could also be added with the BR system. by inputing say a normal attack you would be stuck (much like you are at the present time with doing this), then change the system allowing the player to say add a WS ability to the BR system, then putting that on the side till it is ready to be set off. while allowing the normal attacks to be filtered in without using the attack bonus, Accuracy bonus used on the WS move that was set for the BR.
As for the Enhancing abilities as well as the Magic spells, they are all on a cool down timer so pretty much everything would be able to be handled on that spectrum, not really sure what you mean by the monster AI. can't see this system changing that in any way. they pretty much have their own system working for them, SE can just leave that battle system to what it is.