Market Wards Suggestion

Hi all!

I've been noticing a trend for a long time, where people adamantly devalue their wares simply so that their retainers' names are the first that appear in the list. For example, the market was pretty stable with selling cobalt arrows at 42 per unit. I put mine up for sale at this price. Two hours later, someone flooded the wards with 10 stacks selling at 33 per unit... then some put up at 35, then 39, then 40 again. It's pretty stubbornly obnoxious.

I think a system where retainer names aren't shown unless (for whatever reason) you want to do it the old way of running in and finding a star would be highly beneficial. In FFXI one just had a list of items where you could name your price and press your luck based on sale history. I'm not necessarily proposing we port this over to here, but a consolidated list sorted by price and prioritized by time set up for sale would be much, much better (in other words, if there are 5 people selling items at 10000G, then whoever put theirs up first gets the perk of having his items sold first, for fairness' sake). Retainer names are sorted alphabetically in the current setup (I benefit from this, since my retainer names start with Answa), but this hardly makes any sense in the context of maintaining a fair market.

What are your thoughts?

Sounds like the simplest solution is to drop them below cheapest asking by 1 gil just to be equally as annoying.

That'll just keep the cycle going.

Hiding names would be a good idea but wouldn't stop undercutting.

The only way SE can really solve this issue is to have a floor and ceiling price for every item and I'm sure many people would be opposed to that.

The thing is that I don't mind the undercutting per se, as long as it's because that's just a price that demand asks for. What I do mind is that the only reason it happens is for their name to appear first. The alphabetical ordering of retainers is also a detriment, because it's not a fair way of determining the list order.

the only thing i don't like about the market is that if there is a lot of NQ items the HQ don't show

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Originally Posted by Answa

The thing is that I don't mind the undercutting per se, as long as it's because that's just a price that demand asks for. What I do mind is that the only reason it happens is for their name to appear first. The alphabetical ordering of retainers is also a detriment, because it's not a fair way of determining the list order.

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You appear to be attempting to speak for every player that sells anything on the wards. You cannot support your claim of assuming why they are cheaper then you. If 300 players are selling something, and I put several cheaper then you at various prices, its because I want to see mine sell before yours does. Its a free market. Undercut there prices, or go to one of the other 2 cities wards so you won't have the compitetion.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

You appear to be attempting to speak for every player that sells anything on the wards. You cannot support your claim of assuming why they are cheaper then you. If 300 players are selling something, and I put several cheaper then you at various prices, its because I want to see mine sell before yours does. Its a free market. Undercut there prices, or go to one of the other 2 cities wards so you won't have the compitetion.

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I'm actually not. I don't mind the cheaper prices. What I suggest still allows that. What I want to avoid is that people like I take advantage of simple alphabetical order, while other players are unable to sell when I flood an item. And people resorting to undercutting (to their own economical detriment) just so their name is seen.

I get what your saying, but I don't get how it is a problem that I sell my items cheaper then you, so your angry that my names on top. Reguardless of anything else, if I have a lower price on the same item you are selling, and its on my retainer, my retainers name should be ahead of yours. Period, hands down, no questions asked. Just because I have other items and/or other stacks of the same item, at various prices, is my business.

You are a bit off kilter to suggest they need to make a change in the game because my name is ahead of yours, when I have 1 or more of the same item, at a better price.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

I get what your saying, but I don't get how it is a problem that I sell my items cheaper then you, so your angry that my names on top. Reguardless of anything else, if I have a lower price on the same item you are selling, and its on my retainer, my retainers name should be ahead of yours. Period, hands down, no questions asked. Just because I have other items and/or other stacks of the same item, at various prices, is my business.

You are a bit off kilter to suggest they need to make a change in the game because my name is ahead of yours, when I have 1 or more of the same item, at a better price.

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That you'd think I'm angry is proof enough that you don't get what I'm trying to say.

Coglin, it's not about people undercutting - it's about people working/manipulating the seller list in order to get their names highest on the list regardless of price.

The economy of MMOs is something I have a lot of fun and spend a majority of my time playing around with. OP brings up one of the most common complaints about the current market wards and how items are displayed when doing an item search. One of the biggest problems, that was mentioned, was that only a set amount of items are shown (the cheapest) and this pushes the HQ items/equipment with materia off the page due to them being priced higher BUT for a legitimate reason: higher quality.

I do understand where OP is coming from, but as someone else said, it's a free market. Anytime someone brings up the fact that they were undercut they're usually upset that someone else is willing to sell the same item at a lower price thus they wont be making the same profit they are used to or thought they would make.

Saying that the current way the items are listed is the cause for "rampant undercutting" and abuse is where I disagree. While it is a free market, besides the HQ items mentioned above, NQ items are all exactly the same, thus selling items tends to rely less on building a dedicated consumer base and more with selling the items consistently and evolving with the very fragile economic environment.

Undercutting may seem unusually rampant but I believe this is due to the average player having only 20 slots to try and sell items on the market at a given time. With a system like this I personally like to list items that sell within a decent amount of time so that I can continue to sell new items and adapt with price changes. This being said, if an item that normally sells at a certain price is suddenly being heavily undercut I can assume that this item is suffering from either increasing supply or decreasing demand, or worst case scenario: both. Due to the fact that I am trying to sell a lot more items than the 20 slots given to us, it might be fiscally prudent to simply settle for the new "low" price and move on to another item.

Now what I described above is an over-analyzed version of supply and demand as I've experienced it in this specific game. I did this to provide a possible reasoning behind what OP and others may describe as undercutting for the simple sake of being first on the list, aka:

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it's about people working/manipulating the seller list in order to get their names highest on the list regardless of price.

-Xoo

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I don't even understand what the point of doing that (disregarding price and just aiming for the top of the list) would be since if you are disregarding the price then there's no point in being high on the list, i.e. you wouldn't be making enough of a profit to continue doing it. So, rather than this, I think some of these reactions are people experiencing the fast paced economy that FFXIV has cultivated.

I'm not sure if that helps explain anything, but I hope it at least provides some kind of reasoning as to why it happens and even though this is just my personal experience, it explains a situation where your items might be undercut but not while disregarding the price, but rather "cutting your losses" so to speak to move on to other stock.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Hiding names would be a good idea but wouldn't stop undercutting.

The only way SE can really solve this issue is to have a floor and ceiling price for every item and I'm sure many people would be opposed to that.

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Hi Jinko and Answa,

It's an interesting topic (and the related topic of undercutting).

My worries are about when we get the Server Merge (so we'll have TWICE the # of players / retainers), and the eventual 2.0 Launch (even more people / retainers), *and* the Unified Markets (all 3 Nations share 1 Market Ward) (even more people / retainers), how any regular player can compete with RMT / Gil Sellers or those that want to bully regular players out of the market?

If we only ever display the Top 20 Cheapest Items, even right now, on my server, for popular items you'll see:

Abfggd 99 gil
Abfggd 99 gil
Abfggd 99 gil
Abfggd 99 gil
Abfggd 99 gil
Abfggd 99 gil
Abfggd 99 gil
Abfggd 99 gil
Abfggd 99 gil
Abfggd 99 gil
Peony 99 gil
Peony 99 gil
Peony 99 gil
Peony 99 gil
Peony 99 gil
Peony 99 gil
Peony 99 gil
Peony 99 gil
Peony 99 gil
Peony 99 gil

And everyone else's retainer / items don't even show.

It's a free market, sure, but even in the U.S. there are rules and regulations to prevent Monopolies, Price Dumping, Market Manipulation, etc.

There are laws to protect Competition from those that unscrupulously try and do Price Dumping (selling at ridiculous prices to force the competition out of the market). Any RMT / Gil Selling Corporation (or those players rich enough) can dedicate 2 Retainers (= 20 Slots) and take and control the Listing for the Top 20 Slots and Price Dump, forcing regular crafters and players to try and keep up, or leave the market, and then the RMT / Dumping Player now controls it (raising prices later).

That's always been my problem with FF XI and this game, and it's only going to get worse when the Servers Merge and then to 2.0 and beyond.

I had suggested to Yoshida-san and the Dev Team that they dedicate a few people to be like the Final Fantasy XIV version of the SEC / Anti-Competition Committee, where they can track if large quantities of items are being Price Dumped and a market is being controlled by a few people, where they drive out the competition, and then raise the prices for themselves.

We'll see where this goes, but it's already looking ugly.

And as Myrhn pointed out, right now HQ Items don't show up separately (but they did say they'll work on a system to display HQ eventually), so it's very hard to shop or sell HQ items.

the reason no one else's names show is because no one else is selling the item as cheaply as those that are showing...

the sort order is the the 20 cheapest items show up - therefore if YOUR items are not one of the 20 cheapest then YOUR name is not going to show...

no one WANTS to see your name OR items UNLESS they are in the top 20 cheapest list - working as intended...

Well with any luck we will get a WoW style AH interface in 2.0.

This way you can can click {price} to display the list by price {name} to list by alphabetical name of item, {quality} to list HQ items at the top.

{colour}, {level} etc etc

I don't even think retainer name should even come into how the list is displayed that should be completely random.

This obviously goes beyond the scope of the OP's suggestion but they need to make the marketward categories easier to find and not list them by the ward name and please add a way to type in text to search for items.

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Originally Posted by Crica

the reason no one else's names show is because no one else is selling the item as cheaply as those that are showing...

the sort order is the the 20 cheapest items show up - therefore if YOUR items are not one of the 20 cheapest then YOUR name is not going to show...

no one WANTS to see your name OR items UNLESS they are in the top 20 cheapest list - working as intended...

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You're totally forgetting about all the other people that just have retainers with names further down the alphabetical order with the item at the exact same price.

And HQ items.

And materiad items.

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Originally Posted by Answa

You're totally forgetting about all the other people that just have retainers with names further down the alphabetical order with the item at the exact same price.

And HQ items.

And materiad items.

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Ok, I think I understand what you are saying - if I place an item up for sale and its the 21st item, then the 20th item gets bumped off the list, regardless if its the same price as mine?

Hmm... even in WoW it works the same way - if you choose to sort the item list by lowest price first, the most RECENT lowest priced listing will be displayed first in the list, regardless of how many listings there are for the SAME price.

How ELSE would you suggest the game sort the listings?

SOMEONE has to be first on the list - what is wrong with the most RECENT lowest price listing being first?

I am NOT saying that all other listings should not be shown - if it is possible to show all listings, like WoW does, then by all means show them all - but that does not negate the fact that there are going to be 20 listings that are FIRST in the list no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Crica

Ok, I think I understand what you are saying - if I place an item up for sale and its the 21st item, then the 20th item gets bumped off the list, regardless if its the same price as mine?

Hmm... even in WoW it works the same way - if you choose to sort the item list by lowest price first, the most RECENT lowest priced listing will be displayed first in the list, regardless of how many listings there are for the SAME price.

How ELSE would you suggest the game sort the listings?

SOMEONE has to be first on the list - what is wrong with the most RECENT lowest price listing being first?

I am NOT saying that all other listings should not be shown - if it is possible to show all listings, like WoW does, then by all means show them all - but that does not negate the fact that there are going to be 20 that are FIRST in the list no matter what.

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That is exactly what I'm suggesting. Right now it's alphabetical.

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Originally Posted by Answa

That is exactly what I'm suggesting. Right now it's alphabetical.

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Oh.. I did not realize this.

Erm... wow...

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Originally Posted by Crica

Ok, blah blah.

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The complaint is not over pricing or date of listing. Its about an unfair alphabetical system runnin the wards. If character named "Aaaaaaaaaaaarthur" has the top ten listings, all for 40 gil..... his name only REALLY needs to be up there ONE TIME. He doesn't need to be, or deserve to be, taking up 50% of the list. it prevents others who might also be selling at 40 named "Zzzzzzzzarthur" from ever even having their items appear on the list.

This is a seperate, and at the same time identical, issue that affects +1 or melded items which are obviously listed at higher/much higher price and thus get dropped off the bottom of the list for the pricing reason.

If you want to argue for a SOMEONE being first on the list, let the oldest listings take priority but reset them once a week... "Sorry, you had your week at the top, you'll be kicked to the bottom now." The problem with this is people would, as with all things, exploit that with friends to control and overprice the listings for many items. Price gouging instead of price cutting.... at least it would be a change of pace.

With or without names.. you undercut the prices currently in market yours will always be on top of the sell list no?

I never noticed if its alphabetical or not if you have the same price as someone else. I should pay attention to that tonight.

But even then.. just keep undercutting if you want your stuff on the top of the list.

undercut +1 or melded gear to less than the cost of NQ? that's just awful business sense. undercutting everything is fine by me, i make millions npc'n stuff that i make out of everyone's undercut ingredients.

i undercut cobalt arrows when i had to make 100 stacks of them for skill, i got reported as RMT (Kiss my butt whoever did that) and had to go through a bunch of crap, just cuz someone was butt hurt i got into "their" market for a day....

joking aside i do NOT think (edit for spellin) undercutting is a solution to economic interface woes.

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Originally Posted by Crica

SOMEONE has to be first on the list - what is wrong with the most RECENT lowest price listing being first?.

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To be fair it should be the oldest lowest price don't you think ?

As Peptaru says if a player has multiple stacks of items at the same price a retainer name should only have to appear once and not take up 5 or 6 lines.

Easiest solution would be to display the person who has had the item up for sale the longest be at the top of the list if the prices are the same.

[QUOTE=Peptaru;593520]i undercut cobalt arrows when i had to make 100 stacks of them for skill, i got reported as RMT (Kiss my butt whoever did that) and had to go through a bunch of crap, just cuz someone was butt hurt i got into "their" market for a day.... [QUOTE]

LOL really? wow

yeah, really. i was mad, i still get mad when i think about it. that's the kind of petty bullcrap that people pulled in XI.... but as i read more of the forums i find a lot of jerks from xi are in xiv.... worse, they're on my server...

I just listed Elm Logs on my retainer (named Frabiant) for 900gills each.

Thankyou already had them listed for 900gills each.

My listing is BELOW Thankyou's listing.

The Market Ward listing order is NOT alphabetical first, nor is it listed by the most recent, lowest priced first - the listings are ordered to be the oldest, lowest price listings first, regardless of name.

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Originally Posted by Crica

I just listed Elm Logs on my retainer (named Frabiant) for 900gills each.

Thankyou already had them listed for 900gills each.

My listing is BELOW Thankyou's listing.

The Market Ward listing order is NOT alphabetical first, nor is it listed by the most recent, lowest priced first - the listings are ordered to be the oldest, lowest price listings first, regardless of name.

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Ionno... I always put them at the same price as others and my retainer is always first. Maybe it's some weird internal order?

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Originally Posted by Answa

Ionno... I always put them at the same price as others and my retainer is always first. Maybe it's some weird internal order?

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Im'a go with the status quo on this one - pics or it didn't happen.

If the pics are false, then SE can deny them =P

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Originally Posted by Crica

Im'a go with the status quo on this one - pics or it didn't happen.

If the pics are false, then SE can deny them =P

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lol, ok. I'll do it after maintenance. :P

Edit: Just made a small video. Posting on YouTube. I forgot to take off the sound.... ignore my friends talking...

Here's the video. Sorry it's so long and drawn out, I just thought it'd be better if I showed as much as I could so you knew I didn't tamper with it. I first changed my price from 40 to 44. My name was last, but the other two selling also had names starting with "A", so I changed to next smallest (45). After a while, my price (still at 44), appeared as first. It took a really long time, but the point is that after I changed it to 45, mine showed up before the last, whose name was further down the alphabet.

I just noticed the quality is really choppy. Sorry. ; ;

Your video is private, and can't be viewed. lol

I have a ton of mats for cobalt arrows that I was going to save until later, but this thread is making me want to flood the market with 20 stacks. See you in game!

Edit: Just want to say the prices of cobalt arrows is well over 40g at the moment, the history shows some for sale for as high as 60g. I don't see how you can complain, it cost me less than 15k buy all the materials from the MWs and a stack gives me over 100% profit.

Sorry about that. I thought I'd put it up as unlisted.

Ooh. The quality went up. I guess it hadn't loaded completely.

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Originally Posted by Asmeret

I have a ton of mats for cobalt arrows that I was going to save until later, but this thread is making me want to flood the market with 20 stacks. See you in game!

Edit: Just want to say the prices of cobalt arrows is well over 40g at the moment, the history shows some for sale for as high as 60g. I don't see how you can complain, it cost me less than 15k buy all the materials from the MWs and a stack gives me over 100% profit.

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I'm using Cobalt Arrows as an example.

i already told you that the MW does not prioritize the most recent listings with the lowest prices... the oldest listings with the lowest prices are listed first, not alphabetically either