What is the utility of Onslaught and Upheaval?

As I see, those two skills are dps losses unless you use them inside Inner Release, is that correct? Am I missing something?

Also, do other tanks have to pay gauge to use their charge skill? I think it's silly that I can't initiate with my charge most of the time because I don't have gauge, also can't use Infuriate out of battle (not that I'd use Infuriate to charge, as that's a dps loss too).

Shouldn't Onslaught be changed as to not use gauge and Upheaval be changed to actually be useful?

Upheaval should still be used on cd, because 450 potency ogcd for 20 gauge is a lot better than 590 gcd for 50 gauge, even with the cd reduction to infuriate. You should skip a use of it only, if it drifts outside of your IR window, to realign it. Onslaughti suseful, if it gets you another gcd and sometimes gets used to dump your beast gauge, allthough the later doesn't happen often, normaly only after the opener.

Onslaught is in a really awkward place atm, it costing gauge on one hand ,it costing gauge helps to make the WAR rotation flow really nicely, but on the other hand it messes with it and it is somewhat of a potency loss if used too freely.

This is fantastic. The word "utility" has truly, and utterly lost all meaning. It means everything from mitigation, self-healing, raid buffs, interrupts, mobility tools, to now dps. We can now safely toss it in the bin alongside words such as "clunky."

I'm so tired of seeing Onslaught complaints at this point. Switch Onslaught to being identical to every other tank gap closer (reduce 20 yalm range to 15 yalms, increase 10 second recast to 30 seconds, allow for 2 charges, and remove potency from WAR elsewhere so that no net boost to total dps results from the change). While you do that, give the present Onslaught to DRK, because if you're halfway smart about resource management, it's a superior gap closer in every way. We're the only tanks with any real resource management anyways, so we might as well keep that uniform across the board.

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Originally Posted by Kyni

Upheaval should still be used on cd, because 450 potency ogcd for 20 gauge is a lot better than 590 gcd for 50 gauge, even with the cd reduction to infuriate. You should skip a use of it only, if it drifts outside of your IR window, to realign it. Onslaughti suseful, if it gets you another gcd and sometimes gets used to dump your beast gauge, allthough the later doesn't happen often, normaly only after the opener.

Onslaught is in a really awkward place atm, it costing gauge on one hand ,it costing gauge helps to make the WAR rotation flow really nicely, but on the other hand it messes with it and it is somewhat of a potency loss if used too freely.

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How does that work? It costing gauge makes me want to use sprint to get to the mob instead of using it, because at the end of the day it's 20 gauge that could be going to a fell cleave. Also it costing gauge makes me unable to use it to initiate fights.

That's why I can't see its utility, there is no incentive to use it. Sure it feels great, but its cost outweights its utility.

Damage apparently not useful. *sips tea*

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

How does that work? It costing gauge makes me want to use sprint to get to the mob instead of using it, because at the end of the day it's 20 gauge that could be going to a fell cleave. Also it costing gauge makes me unable to use it to initiate fights.

That's why I can't see its utility, there is no incentive to use it. Sure it feels great, but its cost outweights its utility.

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Sprint does have a 60 seconds cooldown and is not instant so you still might lose a gcd even while sprintig and that would still be at least a 200 potency loss (in case of losing only a heavy swing), while onslaught is just shy of 20 potency loss comapred to spending the gauge on fell cleave(haven't realy mathed it out, but it's very unlikely to be even in the same ballpark as the 200 potency you gain at a minimum from the additional gcd). So yes, onslaught is a dps gain, if you get a gcd out of it.

The other use case ( Gauge managment) might allow you to better allign your burst with raid buffs, for example you should always be aiming to get 2 IC 1 FC and 1 Upheavle under trick ( except when IR is ready at the same time). But this is a more advanced usage of it and is only very rarely benefical, so don't overthink it.

To sum it up: Use Onslaught during IR and when you would gain a gcd from it and you should be good.

They make you look cool. Onslaught gets you from point A to point B, and makes you look badass doing it. I mean, it's a freakin' shoulder tackle! What's not to like? It's also an effective dodging ability, like all gap closers. Upheaval hits hard for it's gauge cost, and you're doing a makeshift shoryuken. Sounds pretty neat to me.

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

Shouldn't Onslaught be changed as to not use gauge and Upheaval be changed to actually be useful?.

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Can't tell if you're trolling about upheaval or not. Fell Cleave is 590 potency for a cost of 50 gauge, which is 11.8 potency per gauge point (590/50). Upheaval is 450 potency for a cost of 20 gauge, which is 22.5 potency per gauge point (450/20). In other words, upheaval gives you more damage per gauge.

Use upheaval on cooldown. Onslaught is situational. I recommend https://thebalanceffxiv.com/ and it's associated discord for any further questions.

Upheaval is a dps gain.
Onslaught is a dps loss and you should not use it outside IR.

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

I think it's silly that I can't initiate with my charge most of the time because I don't have gauge...

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I don't think you normally want to start with a gap closer unless you want the dps to be behind a gcd or more for the fight.

What's the utility? MO' POWAH, BABY!

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Originally Posted by IntrovertAnt

I don't think you normally want to start with a gap closer unless you want the dps to be behind a gcd or more for the fight.

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But what of questing or just having fun? You can't use Onslaught unless you always remind yourself not to use the full bar, which also sucks because then you're slowing down your FCs and ICs.

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Originally Posted by Jekyll

Can't tell if you're trolling about upheaval or not. Fell Cleave is 590 potency for a cost of 50 gauge, which is 11.8 potency per gauge point (590/50). Upheaval is 450 potency for a cost of 20 gauge, which is 22.5 potency per gauge point (450/20). In other words, upheaval gives you more damage per gauge.

Use upheaval on cooldown. Onslaught is situational. I recommend https://thebalanceffxiv.com/ and it's associated discord for any further questions.

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Didn't think it was that easy to calculate, I mean, you didn't account for the cd reduction of Infuriate from FC.

Still worth using upheaval on cooldown you only use onslaught out of inner realse to gain a gcd or you are going to overcap

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

Didn't think it was that easy to calculate, I mean, you didn't account for the cd reduction of Infuriate from FC.

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Yes, but their estimate is actually high in comparison to what it really is. This is because Fell Cleave is also on the GCD while Upheaval is not. So while the analysis that Upheaval is 450/20 = 22.5 potency per gauge, the same analysis for the average potency of Fell Cleave (590/50 = 11.8 potency/gauge) is not because you are replacing a GCD action. The calculation for the average combo potency is a bit harder to analyze on warrior than on dark knight since you have multiple combos giving different gauge amounts and also have an additional potency in terms of Inner Chaos reduction which is also dependent on the Average GCD potency. Basically you are correct, it is much more complicated than it was made out to be. Regardless, upheaval is definitely the most cost effective way to transform warrior gauge into damage.

Post Script Analysis
I calculated the average Fell Cleave potency: This does not mean every fell cleave is worth the same, but if you were to average all your Fell cleaves together this is how much potency it gained you over your average GCD. If you want more details as you what a specific Fell Cleave is worth you will need to consult your specific fight.
I did a quick calculation taking into account gauge lost, average GCD potency, timer reductions on Inner Chaos as well as Inner Chaos's interaction with its own timer. I did make a small approximation so this is an upper estimate on the average potency but I expect that it is fairly close to accurate.

For Fell Cleave: 1g is worth 7.15 potency on average. Meaning Fell Cleave is worth about 357.5 potency above your average GCD. Comparing this to Upheaval and Upheaval is approximately 3.15 times more effective at turning gauge into potency over Fell Cleave. Since they use different amounts of gauge Upheaval only gains you about 100 potency over Fell Cleave.

We can also use this to approximate how much of a potency loss onslaught is: onslaught loses 43 potency per use compared to saving the gauge to Fell Cleave. However, if you were to overcap your gauge with the next GCD, there by losing 10 guage you can onslaught instead.

That 10 gauge is worth 71.5 potency, onslaught loses 43 potency. That means using onslaught to gain back that 10 gauge is worth about 28.5 potency. In other words: Onslaught is a dps gain when used well. It isn't often a gain, but in the right situations it can be. This only happens rarely within your rotation. But also keep in mind that if your spring is down and/or onslaught would get you back faster and gain you GCDs it is a gain as your combo potency is also quite high.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Yes, but their estimate is actually high in comparison to what it really is. This is because Fell Cleave is also on the GCD while Upheaval is not. So while the analysis that Upheaval is 450/20 = 22.5 potency per gauge, the same analysis for the average potency of Fell Cleave (590/50 = 11.8 potency/gauge) is not because you are replacing a GCD action. The calculation for the average combo potency is a bit harder to analyze on warrior than on dark knight since you have multiple combos giving different gauge amounts and also have an additional potency in terms of Inner Chaos reduction which is also dependent on the Average GCD potency. Basically you are correct, it is much more complicated than it was made out to be. Regardless, upheaval is definitely the most cost effective way to transform warrior gauge into damage.

Post Script Analysis
I calculated the average Fell Cleave potency: This does not mean every fell cleave is worth the same, but if you were to average all your Fell cleaves together this is how much potency it gained you over your average GCD. If you want more details as you what a specific Fell Cleave is worth you will need to consult your specific fight.
I did a quick calculation taking into account gauge lost, average GCD potency, timer reductions on Inner Chaos as well as Inner Chaos's interaction with its own timer. I did make a small approximation so this is an upper estimate on the average potency but I expect that it is fairly close to accurate.

For Fell Cleave: 1g is worth 7.15 potency on average. Meaning Fell Cleave is worth about 357.5 potency above your average GCD. Comparing this to Upheaval and Upheaval is approximately 3.15 times more effective at turning gauge into potency over Fell Cleave. Since they use different amounts of gauge Upheaval only gains you about 100 potency over Fell Cleave.

We can also use this to approximate how much of a potency loss onslaught is: onslaught loses 43 potency per use compared to saving the gauge to Fell Cleave. However, if you were to overcap your gauge with the next GCD, there by losing 10 guage you can onslaught instead.

That 10 gauge is worth 71.5 potency, onslaught loses 43 potency. That means using onslaught to gain back that 10 gauge is worth about 28.5 potency. In other words: Onslaught is a dps gain when used well. It isn't often a gain, but in the right situations it can be. This only happens rarely within your rotation. But also keep in mind that if your spring is down and/or onslaught would get you back faster and gain you GCDs it is a gain as your combo potency is also quite high.

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Thank you!!!

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Originally Posted by Lyth

This is fantastic. The word "utility" has truly, and utterly lost all meaning. It means everything from mitigation, self-healing, raid buffs, interrupts, mobility tools, to now dps. We can now safely toss it in the bin alongside words such as "clunky."

I'm so tired of seeing Onslaught complaints at this point. Switch Onslaught to being identical to every other tank gap closer (reduce 20 yalm range to 15 yalms, increase 10 second recast to 30 seconds, allow for 2 charges, and remove potency from WAR elsewhere so that no net boost to total dps results from the change). While you do that, give the present Onslaught to DRK, because if you're halfway smart about resource management, it's a superior gap closer in every way. We're the only tanks with any real resource management anyways, so we might as well keep that uniform across the board.

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and there is a reason why every other tank uses their "gap-closer" as dps gain and "maybe" saves 1 charge after burst if the encounter requires it.

sure give us the identical gap closer and lower potencies elsewhere.. :rolleyes:

on topic: others already mentioned the most important, i'll just advice to always keep at least 20 gauge for onslaught in case you want to gap close, like chrono already said, onslaught is a dps gain if you can gain uptime on the target (gcd's), other then that only use it in inner release and while it can be used as a gauge dump, with the loss of the stance benefits of keeping your gauge high, there is little reason/value of going over 70 gauge atm. at least in my opinion.

Upheaval is a DPS gain at all times. Not sure how you are figuring it isnt. Its a powerful attack that should be used as often as humanly possible. Period.

Onslaught is only a tiny, tiny dps loss. That is easily made up for by not delaying a GCD. TLDR: if walking back to a monster makes you delay a GCD, you should have used onslaught to get back faster. Its really that straightforward. It's a perfectly designed gap closer. If you dont need to gap close, you dont use it. If you find yourself with a gap to close, close it and you will be better off for it.