Why Eden is not MSQ?

On this expansion fells a real waste of nice content.

Same reason Binding Coil wasn't part of the MSQ in spite of directly tying into it at later junctions, same with the Crystal Tower. They need side content to pad out the story and sometimes it doesn't always fit the pacing or the desired focus of the immediate story to add it into the main story.

Any particular reason why making it MSQ instead of a raid would be better? Anythign other than "I don't like raiding".

Yes, but in this time in the end of the MSQ. Show then going on that direction, and in others expansion that wasn’t the case if i’m not missing something.
Also in all cases fells it was a waste but in this case it may change the world not only a certain location.

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

Any particular reason why making it MSQ instead of a raid would be better? Anythign other than "I don't like raiding".

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Well they create savage for the ones that like raiding, so everyone can have the same story experience.

They've obviously got other things in mind for the MSQ. Dealing with Elidibus and Zenos immediately comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by Felien

Yes, but in this time in the end of the MSQ. Show then going on that direction, and in others expansion that wasn’t the case if i’m not missing something.
Also in all cases fells it was a waste but in this case it may change the world not only a certain location.

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There is a high chance Eden may become one of those "will happen no matter what" events with the only difference being if WoL took part in it or not.

For Crystal Tower story we know it happens no matter what but the difference is that WoL did not get involve or did get involved in team NOAH.

For Eden's case it may focus on Ryne, Thancred, and Urianger resolved Eden's events without WoL's help if WoL "choose" not to do Eden Raid thus anything Eden related will then only mention Ryne, Thancred, and Urianger but if WoL does take part a 3rd Dialogue option opens that will result in a alternate dialogue including WoL.

They are exploring Alternate Dialogue paths now with 5.0 expansion which we see in the MSQ.

You can think of it as a spin-off MSQ chain.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

They've obviously got other things in mind for the MSQ. Dealing with Elidibus and Zenos immediately comes to mind.

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I imagine we wont actually do that until 6.0, when we figure out a way to get our buddies off the first.

"We know you expected to go to Garlemald and finish that storyline, but please take this detour so we can go there next expansion instead".

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

There is a high chance Eden may become one of those "will happen no matter what" events with the only difference being if WoL took part in it or not.

For Crystal Tower story we know it happens no matter what but the difference is that WoL did not get involve or did get involved in team NOAH.

For Eden's case it may focus on Ryne, Thancred, and Urianger resolved Eden's events without WoL's help if WoL "choose" not to do Eden Raid thus anything Eden related will then only mention Ryne, Thancred, and Urianger but if WoL does take part a 3rd Dialogue option opens that will result in a alternate dialogue including WoL.

They are exploring Alternate Dialogue paths now with 5.0 expansion which we see in the MSQ.

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The Crystal Tower (as well as Alexander and Omega) aren't a matter of if the WoL was present, but of WHEN they were present. The implication is that your WoL WILL do it, or would have in the alt future, at some point. The question is just whether you had already done them all already or if it was at some unknown time in the soon to be future.

i think it could either become part of msq (part of it) or it become something like "rabanastre arc" important.

i would be livid if this eden thingy continue on and we later stumble upon the ruin of...

Balamb Garden

i mean, its vast desert out there, its basically huge empty space that yoshi can put whatever he want

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Originally Posted by Barraind

I imagine we wont actually do that until 6.0, when we figure out a way to get our buddies off the first.

"We know you expected to go to Garlemald and finish that storyline, but please take this detour so we can go there next expansion instead".

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We know that Elidibus's immediate goal is to keep us mired on the first for as long as possible out of spite, having thrown caution to the wind by revealing everything to Zenos. Tataru also says, upon your return, that she'd be getting in touch with Estinien soon for a progress report. Finish matters on the First -> march north because Varis is dead and his son wants to eat a god seems like a fairly straightforward path.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

We know that Elidibus's immediate goal is to keep us mired on the first for as long as possible out of spite, having thrown caution to the wind by revealing everything to Zenos. Tataru also says, upon your return, that she'd be getting in touch with Estinien soon for a progress report. Finish matters on the First -> march north because Varis is dead and his son wants to eat a god seems like a fairly straightforward path.

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Ya from how things goes we can expect the return to the source being 5.3 then after that it is finally going into Garlean Empire (or atleast the set up to get into the place) in 5.4 to 5.5 then we meet the Finale of this long Season 1 storyline in 6.0 where Zodiark/Ascians are finally defeated in whatever means the finale of this long story has prepared for even if it is a Crazy God powered Zenos as the Finale boss that has gone full Kefka on the World.

Then from there was can only assume what the new Storyline set after the Defeat of Zodiark/ Ascians maybe.

In all honestly, i still think the Zodiark/Ascian vs Hydaelyn Storyline has been dragged on long enough for it to finally end in 6.0. The entire set up is now set for it as well by the end of 5.0 so it is only a matter of the Journey towards that long awaited finale in 6.0.

I mean, there's also the problem of Eden being made up of 12 trial fights in a row. It couldn't stay as it is now and be added to the MSQ requirements. That many trials, particularly in a row, just to advance the overall story would be nuts.

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Originally Posted by Felien

On this expansion fells a real waste of nice content.

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Raids are never part of the MSQ. They are always side content.

With the addition of Normal Mode 8man content, there is no reason not to have MSQ story content associated to it. Even if people dont like "raiding", the content is fairly easy and you only need to do it once to get the story out of it.

It should be forced, even if you dont care and dont like it you might got the time to do it ONCE in all the time between the patches. even now you already easily carry some dead weight sooo whatever.

I just feel its stupid for the writers to have to write around it. It already was with CT. Imo, id make the last 4.55 quest GO AND CONQUER THAT TOWER in case ppl didnt already, there were plenty of nervs and tons of time - AND that event too. just let the MSQ branch in ok we look for that device or ok we gotta open that tower.

Mhach was one thing, the Ivalice raids were... well it was ok but still a pity for it, but CT and Omega, nw Eden should be forced... you cant go like "nah not gonna fight shinryu not feeling like it" either after all.

You need to do MSQ to unlock Eden, ergo Eden is MSQ. :)

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

There is a high chance Eden may become one of those "will happen no matter what" events with the only difference being if WoL took part in it or not.

For Crystal Tower story we know it happens no matter what but the difference is that WoL did not get involve or did get involved in team NOAH.

For Eden's case it may focus on Ryne, Thancred, and Urianger resolved Eden's events without WoL's help if WoL "choose" not to do Eden Raid thus anything Eden related will then only mention Ryne, Thancred, and Urianger but if WoL does take part a 3rd Dialogue option opens that will result in a alternate dialogue including WoL.

They are exploring Alternate Dialogue paths now with 5.0 expansion which we see in the MSQ.

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As Dualblade said, that isn't how it works. They've been "exploring multiple dialogue paths" since right back in ARR, and no quest events ever happen without us being there. If you skip an optional-but-important storyline, later quests will not claim those events happened, and may outright indicate they haven't.

If you haven't done the Crystal Tower, the game does not - cannot - assume it happened and you weren't present. You need to be there for that part of G'raha's storyline, because he remembers you being there in his past, whether you've personally been through it yet or not.

If you haven't done the Crystal Tower yet, variable dialogue reflects that. The Exarch tells Urianger that you are yet to meet his past self.

At the same time, CT has a designated place in the storyline, and completing it post-Shadowbringers would "slot it in" to that earlier time rather than adding it afterwards - as long as you tick "reflect quest progression" when you rewatch the cutscenes.

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

Any particular reason why making it MSQ instead of a raid would be better? Anythign other than "I don't like raiding".

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Only reason I can think of is to avoid repeating what we have with MSQ roulette (Castrum and Prae).

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Originally Posted by Felien

On this expansion fells a real waste of nice content.

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For me, it IS part of the MSQ. So far, to continue the quest series, I've had to do the first two parts, Still need to study the 3rd before attempting it.

As if MSQ is not full of obrigatory content...

I'm actually also a bit worried that Eden isn't a part of the MSQ. The quest is about restoring the First, which is no small thing and could be lore changing. However, since they turned such a mission into side content, it likely means that Eden's quest can only have a minimal impact in the main story and the world. So my guess is that we'll never see the First restored per se, it might just end as "it'll never be restored" or "it might be restored but it'll take time".

Side content has never impacted or changed the main world, so far, so I have to agree with OP when they say that it's a bit of a waste.

This has probably been said before but I feel like the Eden story and our character restoring the world to what it was before will lead to 5.0's version of Eureka. It will probably be like SB's Four Lords quests where it was mentioned in the MSQ then lead off into it's own thing.

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Originally Posted by Felien

Well they create savage for the ones that like raiding, so everyone can have the same story experience.

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Savage doesn't have a story element to it anymore. They did away with that in the Alexander normal/Savage split. The developers said in the Live Letters that Eden would tie in directly to the main scenario (like Coil did) even though it's "side content".

Just do the normal mode.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

As Dualblade said, that isn't how it works. They've been "exploring multiple dialogue paths" since right back in ARR, and no quest events ever happen without us being there. If you skip an optional-but-important storyline, later quests will not claim those events happened, and may outright indicate they haven't.

If you haven't done the Crystal Tower, the game does not - cannot - assume it happened and you weren't present. You need to be there for that part of G'raha's storyline, because he remembers you being there in his past, whether you've personally been through it yet or not.

If you haven't done the Crystal Tower yet, variable dialogue reflects that. The Exarch tells Urianger that you are yet to meet his past self.

At the same time, CT has a designated place in the storyline, and completing it post-Shadowbringers would "slot it in" to that earlier time rather than adding it afterwards - as long as you tick "reflect quest progression" when you rewatch the cutscenes.

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It is a rather questionable theory currently because of what happened in the ending of 5.0 with...

hints that Young G'raha Tia maybe waking up in Source CT for 5.1 Storyline which would imply CT Raid storyline happens no matter what with or without WoL's involvement since Young G'raha Tia can only be sealed and asleep in CT if the CT Raid storyline happened already.

This would also then hold to the theory that CT Raid storyline happens no matter what with or without WoL being involved. Thus the first time meeting would be in 5.1 MSQ in a Post-CT Raid Storyline( without WoL involvement) (or WoL Involvement if player complete CT Raid storyline) after he has awakened from CT.

However, as I said this will require us to first learn what happens in 5.1 to 5.3 involving Young G'raha Tia in the Source and what role he will play from there.

I still hold the theory that they may go for the Young Spock and Old Spock relationship between the two characters where......

Young G'raha Tia becomes a member of the Scions thus living his dream to go on a adventure with WoL (and taking Exarch's place as the Trust Companion) and Old G'raha stays behind to take over his role as the Master of CT and aid Ironworks with mastering CT in this new timeline earlier than his old timeline.

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Originally Posted by Felien

Yes, but in this time in the end of the MSQ. Show then going on that direction, and in others expansion that wasn’t the case if i’m not missing something.
Also in all cases fells it was a waste but in this case it may change the world not only a certain location.

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The exact same thing happened with The Binding Coil and Alexander, once the MSQ ended you got a small introductory cutscene to the raid. Cant remember if oOmega did it too, but I guess it did.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

It is a rather questionable theory currently because of what happened in the ending of 5.0 with...

hints that Young G'raha Tia maybe waking up in Source CT for 5.1 Storyline which would imply CT Raid storyline happens no matter what with or without WoL's involvement since Young G'raha Tia can only be sealed and asleep in CT if the CT Raid storyline happened already.

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Which is why, until canon proves me wrong, I will argue that it cannot be what they're hinting because I believe they will not take that story path. It doesn't follow their established method of handling all optional questlines up to this point.

As I said, for someone who hasn't completed CT, G'raha directly tells Urianger that the Warrior of Light has not met his past self yet, which means it is going to happen later, and the WoL will be there when it does - ie. at whatever point the player completes the quest. G'raha remembers it happening in his past, even though it's still the player's future.

If they planned to ignore quest progression and act as if you've done it when you haven't, then I would expect them to be more deliberately vague when writing dialogue like that.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Which is why, until canon proves me wrong, I will argue that it cannot be what they're hinting because I believe they will not take that story path. It doesn't follow their established method of handling all optional questlines up to this point.

As I said, for someone who hasn't completed CT, G'raha directly tells Urianger that the Warrior of Light has not met his past self yet, which means it is going to happen later, and the WoL will be there when it does - ie. at whatever point the player completes the quest. G'raha remembers it happening in his past, even though it's still the player's future.

If they planned to ignore quest progression and act as if you've done it when you haven't, then I would expect them to be more deliberately vague when writing dialogue like that.

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A little off topic but interesting to note is:

They actually put dialogue in for if you're in the middle of the CT quest line, I was a hardcore crafter back in ARR so I didn't get around to the CT till during HW, however I thought the quests ended at "The World of Darkness" So I never actually finished the quest line till towards the end of SHB when I noticed G'raha say something to the effect of this during the flashback explaining his plans. "My past self currently travels with the WoL, I'd not spoil the rest of that time of my life for anything" So it's a nice little detail they even thought of people in the middle of the CT story.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

A little off topic but interesting to note is:

They actually put dialogue in for if you're in the middle of the CT quest line, I was a hardcore crafter back in ARR so I didn't get around to the CT till during HW, however I thought the quests ended at "The World of Darkness" So I never actually finished the quest line till towards the end of SHB when I noticed G'raha say something to the effect of this during the flashback explaining his plans. "My past self currently travels with the WoL, I'd not spoil the rest of that time of my life for anything" So it's a nice little detail they even thought of people in the middle of the CT story.

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Oh, that is fantastic!

I expected there'd be a middle option, but you can't get that dialogue back. You can play the zero progression version of the cutscene, or your current state (ie. long finished in my case) but there's no way to wind back to that middle point and see what gets said if you missed it.

So, thankyou for saving me from wondering!

You're welcome it made me realise I'd not finished the story for CT I was like "Wait... what dose he mean...? But thinking about it I'm now glad I made the mistake as I got to see something I never would have otherwise.
It was indeed an awesome little detail.

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Originally Posted by Clover_Blake

I'm actually also a bit worried that Eden isn't a part of the MSQ. The quest is about restoring the First, which is no small thing and could be lore changing. However, since they turned such a mission into side content, it likely means that Eden's quest can only have a minimal impact in the main story and the world. So my guess is that we'll never see the First restored per se, it might just end as "it'll never be restored" or "it might be restored but it'll take time".

Side content has never impacted or changed the main world, so far, so I have to agree with OP when they say that it's a bit of a waste.

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We'll never see major changes in the current zones, because they don't need restoring.
It's only 'the empty' that needs restoring, and we never see that outside of the Eden quests anyway.
It's tied to the MSQ, but it's still entirely side content, as the restoration of the empty has no direct bearing on the rest of Norvrandt.

As for previous raids impacting the world:
Alexander has obviously drastically changed the Dravania Hinterlands.
Alpha and Omega wander the world and can be found in various places by chance.
Minor changes, but a nice touch to show that they have had an impact.

Potential spoilers ahead.

Have you been through the Twinning and all of the main scenario quests? Then you know Cid helped deal with Alexander and Omega with or without the Warrior of Light, and his vision made it possible for scientists after him to manage inter-Shard travel. Therefore, while not part of the main scenario quests, the events surrounding Alexander and Omega are canon. If you're a summoner, it's pretty clear the events surrounding the Binding Coil of Bahamut are also canon, even if you personally hadn't bothered.

So what's the big difference between Eden being side quests instead of main scenario quests?

Correct me if I'm wrong but in HW, after the final Thordan fight, didn't the cutscene loom ominously around Alexander? In SB, didn't we see Estinien look down Omega's crater at some point too? How is this any different?

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

Potential spoilers ahead.

Have you been through the Twinning and all of the main scenario quests? Then you know Cid helped deal with Alexander and Omega with or without the Warrior of Light, and his vision made it possible for scientists after him to manage inter-Shard travel. Therefore, while not part of the main scenario quests, the events surrounding Alexander and Omega are canon. If you're a summoner, it's pretty clear the events surrounding the Binding Coil of Bahamut are also canon, even if you personally hadn't bothered.

So what's the big difference between Eden being side quests instead of main scenario quests?

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Actually, the implication is that the events of alexander, omega and the crystal tower would happen with you involved regardless of whether or not you have them done at this exact moment. The adventures would happen in the future even if it is out of scope of what you personally do in the game.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

Potential spoilers ahead.

Have you been through the Twinning and all of the main scenario quests? Then you know Cid helped deal with Alexander and Omega with or without the Warrior of Light, and his vision made it possible for scientists after him to manage inter-Shard travel. Therefore, while not part of the main scenario quests, the events surrounding Alexander and Omega are canon. If you're a summoner, it's pretty clear the events surrounding the Binding Coil of Bahamut are also canon, even if you personally hadn't bothered.

So what's the big difference between Eden being side quests instead of main scenario quests?

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There isn't a difference between Eden being a sidequest and Alexander/Omega being a sidequest, but there is a difference between them being sidequests or MSQ - it affects how they can be referred to in later storylines.

The "optional" sidequests are intended to happen in the grand scheme of the story, but they don't happen without you. Instead the game waits, and rearranges dialogue that would otherwise refer to them, until the individual player completes the quest. This also means that sidequest elements and characters can't be easily brought back into the MSQ because they may have "not happened yet" for the individual player.

Time travel means that all waiting is off. The events happened, with us involved, sometime in the period between the player's present and the future point where Cid made use of the knowledge he gained from it.

The Exarch specifically says so when he explains it in 'The Unbroken Thread':

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CRYSTAL EXARCH
[The concept] was rooted in a theory which unified several fundamental principles discovered over the course of the Warrior of Light's adventures.

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This line doesn't change in the default "no sidequests completed" version of the scene. So, they definitely happened, and the WoL was definitely there.

But really they happened alongside the MSQ in the patch where they were introduced, regardless of when you do them, and the player is bending spacetime by leaving them unfinished beyond their designated point in the story.

For a Lv80 player who skipped the Lv50 raids, Nero is still standing around Mor Dhona in a paper-thin disguise after fleeing the Praetorium, and Urianger is still at the Waking Sands hoping he can get you to help Alisaie (who you've only met once back at Lv20) with the Binding Coil. It's not where those characters are in the story right now, but they'll stay there until you straighten out the timeline by completing their quests.

Well tbh, the MSQ is done. The main threat neutralized, Eden is a side quest basically. It will probably have later implications, but it's not MSQ related atm.