MP pool and death

Hello,

I think MP on a castor needs to be 75% full or all the way full after getting raided up in battle. Too many times have I activated lucid dreaming only to die a few mins after. There are also times when lucid dreaming dose not even help and I quickly drain my MP pool b4 it is backup after being raided up. And before any of you all say get good what what know. I am sorry I am not a robot and human error will happens and most of my deaths are because the healers zone out and only heal them selfs/tanks leaving me to die to an raid dmg thing. Because melee no longer have a TP problem after getting raided up, I think this would be a good fix to the MP problem.

If you're healing: Communicate with your tank and party that you are not comfortable yet pulling at lower MP. And you dont have to keep everyone at 100% AND never ever lose your own health out of sight. But use your abilities to maintain your mana.
If you're DPS-ing: When some **** hits the fan, you're the first healers sacrifice :x

What, so you can immediately chain res 3 other people? Yeah no, casters need to be MP gated or death is more meaningless than it already is.

If you are dying a lot due to lack of heals, its either a you problem or bad healers. Here is a list of somethings to take note of in regards to healers..

1. Healers are not going to make a major effort to heal people who stand out in the middle of nowhere.

2. Healers most likely are not going to blow a insta heal or rescue to pull you out telegraphs cause you refuse to move or tunnel vision.

3. If you get constantly hit by avoidable damage you will become the last person healed and the last person to be rezzed out of dead players.

4. Healers will always stand were the most party members at too maximize the number of people who can be healed.

*dancing in Blackmage*

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Originally Posted by GreatMonkey

most of my deaths are because the healers zone out and only heal them selfs/tanks leaving me to die to an raid dmg thing.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

If you are dying a lot due to lack of heals, its either a you problem or bad healers. Here is a list of somethings to take note of in regards to healers..

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If it was one or two instances, it might have been bad healers.

If it's happening constantly, it's not the healers.

Caster death is incredibly punishing. RDM/SMN could use some love somewhere. Preferably mp cost reductions on damaging spells, but not in raised mp return.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Caster death is incredibly punishing. RDM/SMN could use some love somewhere. Preferably mp cost reductions on damaging spells, but not in raised mp return.

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People rezzing a red mage expecting them to raise others are in for a rude awakening.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

People rezzing a red mage expecting them to raise others are in for a rude awakening.

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I always rezz others if I have enough MP and swiftcast ready. If it's a healer, than maybe without swiftcast too.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

People rezzing a red mage expecting them to raise others are in for a rude awakening.

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People expecting a Red Mage rezzing at any time now are in for a rude awakening... Red mages will run out of MP after an extended time without rezzing.

Red Mages are supportive!

Most healers have instant heals that affect an area of 15 feet around them that they weave in while topping off the tanks and doing damage. How far away from the healers have you been standing exactly?

https://i.gyazo.com/59de7067587804de...f803159483.png

Here's a really /BAD/ doodle of it but basically if you're out of that circle and have to be single targeted, you've already made your healer angry because now they need to baby sit you. Try keeping close if the fight allows it.

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Originally Posted by Enla

Most healers have instant heals that affect an area of 15 feet around them that they weave in while topping off the tanks and doing damage. How far away from the healers have you been standing exactly?

Here's a really /BAD/ doodle of it but basically if you're out of that circle and have to be single targeted, you've already made your healer angry because now they need to baby sit you. Try keeping close if the fight allows it.

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Also the dungeon version ~

https://i.imgur.com/dANQrjW.png

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Originally Posted by Haruane

I always rezz others if I have enough MP and swiftcast ready. If it's a healer, than maybe without swiftcast too.

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I meant that when you're rezzed you barely have any MP. Even if lucid dreaming is up, if you raise someone then you won't have any MP to attack with.

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Originally Posted by Tint

*dancing in Blackmage*

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I used to enjoy throwing a Mana Shift to pay the cost back (I'm pretty sure the shifted MP was just about the same as the rez cost). Was always a bit of a shame to be on such a long cooldown. I might not have minded very much being the healer's backup MP battery.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

I meant that when you're rezzed you barely have any MP. Even if lucid dreaming is up, if you raise someone then you won't have any MP to attack with.

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Yes, that's right.

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Originally Posted by Lunalepsy

Red Mages are supportive!

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Casters in general aren't supportive anymore. We are maids at best. With the loss of Refresh and the increased costs of spells completely cancelling out the buff to lucid, we are bad maids at that.

Losing apoc, erase and manashift while having 2 less role skills than any other role solidifies that. Mnks with mantra literally provide more support than us in optimal skill play.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Also the dungeon version ~

https://i.imgur.com/dANQrjW.png

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My healing life in a picture. Never fails

Avoid death, problem solved.

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Originally Posted by GreatMonkey

Hello,

I think MP on a castor needs to be 75% full or all the way full after getting raided up in battle. Too many times have I activated lucid dreaming only to die a few mins after. There are also times when lucid dreaming dose not even help and I quickly drain my MP pool b4 it is backup after being raided up. And before any of you all say get good what what know. I am sorry I am not a robot and human error will happens and most of my deaths are because the healers zone out and only heal them selfs/tanks leaving me to die to an raid dmg thing. Because melee no longer have a TP problem after getting raided up, I think this would be a good fix to the MP problem.

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I'd probably start thinking about bringing meds with you if this happens more often than not. That minor amount you recover from them not be much, but it's better than nothing. Or meld for piety to recover mp faster on one slot or two. *shrug* There's not much you can do if you die again and again due to raidwide mechanics because of party shenanigans.

But yes, I do agree, a nice boost to get the dead casters back up and running instead of just losing out on dps/co-healing is something we really need. Even 50% mp recovered on resurrection is still better than nothing.

As pointed out, this won't happen because it would make zombieing too easy.

Pretty sure they dropped the cooldown on Lucid Dreaming to help people combat this problem. I feel like that's already enough of a kind gesture in this regard.

If getting up without Lucid is such a problem for you and it's a situation where you'll be more of a liability than actually useful until you have your next Lucid, then simply wait for a bit before accepting your raise.

Also to RDMs out there, don't forget that you have an unenchanted melee combo you can use if MP is too tight to cast offensive spells for whatever reason. TP cost isn't even an issue anymore, too. Sure, it's weak, but it's probably comparable to standing around not even being able to ride your gcd/dualcast because your MP is gone.

Why do people need to be babied? MP is a rather non issue, and there's ways you can ensure that you get more MP back (Most so with Black Mage since they have literally infinite MP). I've died before as both Whm/Rdm in 80 content, and as long as people weren't getting hit by dumb things, I was able to get my MP back up.

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Originally Posted by GreatMonkey

Hello,

I think MP on a castor needs to be 75% full or all the way full after getting raided up in battle. Too many times have I activated lucid dreaming only to die a few mins after. There are also times when lucid dreaming dose not even help and I quickly drain my MP pool b4 it is backup after being raided up. And before any of you all say get good what what know. I am sorry I am not a robot and human error will happens and most of my deaths are because the healers zone out and only heal them selfs/tanks leaving me to die to an raid dmg thing. Because melee no longer have a TP problem after getting raided up, I think this would be a good fix to the MP problem.

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I will tell you a secret: don't die and as Red mage even healer don't heal you, you can still heal yourself with your class lol

I had a Red Mage in Malikah's Well literally spam Vercure four times after they took 5,000~ damage.

Just let that sink in that they spent 2,000 MP on what is easily healed by Medica II, Indom/Whispering Dawn or Helios/Asp. Helios.

I don't think MP is the issue, I think the player is the issue in this situation.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

I had a Red Mage in Malikah's Well literally spam Vercure four times after they took 5,000~ damage.

Just let that sink in that they spent 2,000 MP on what is easily healed by Medica II, Indom/Whispering Dawn or Helios/Asp. Helios.

I don't think MP is the issue, I think the player is the issue in this situation.

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Although unfortunate in your situation, if you don't even play the class, how can you say that. Literally the post above you suggests that the rdm should just heal themselves if they don't trust the healer.

So which is it? You're bad if you use Vercure or you're bad if you trust that your healer will get you, but they don't so you die and have wrecked mp?

RDM mp right now is the same as it was in STB without a bard, between the increased costs of spells relative to max mp and lucid changes. Scorch adds another burden to mp, tipping the scales to rdm having worse mp economy now than ever. Losing refresh really set us back. You'd think that somewhere in the middle between non-refresh mp rdm and refresh mp rdm would be where a balanced mp economy would be, but nope.

Lucid being on a shorter cool down with lower potency is also contributing to mana issues. Requiring 2ogcd slots, every 2 minutes instead of 1.

RDM mp economy is terrible. In a perfect run where nothing bad happens you'll get by just fine of course--but at that point why didn't you bring a BLM?

Delete. Verraise. Casters don't need to be able to raise. It's not a dps job or utility and things like this are imo a good reason why having raise is stupidly shackling. Summoner and Red Mage have this weird unique thing, not among casters but among all DPS where if they die, they're on the off-foot for the rest of the fight as far as resources are concerned. Both run serious risk of OOMing just from their basic rotation after death.

It's a silly phenomenon brought about by their need to balance the two for having the ability to raise.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Although unfortunate in your situation, if you don't even play the class, how can you say that. Literally the post above you suggests that the rdm should just heal themselves if they don't trust the healer.

So which is it? You're bad if you use Vercure or you're bad if you trust that your healer will get you, but they don't so you die and have wrecked mp?

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It's right in the name of the role? DPS... ? Healer... ? Why should I worry about my health being maxed/in good condition if it isn't my job?

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Originally Posted by ErryK

It's right in the name of the role? DPS... ? Healer... ? Why should I worry about my health being maxed/in good condition if it isn't my job?

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Careless self-vercuring is silly. I won't say otherwise--you're saccing anywhere between 250 and 310 flat potency and a ton of mana. I also agree in general that it's not the dps' job to heal--see my raise rant above.

That said, dying is dying. If forced to choose between worrying about my own health and saccing a gcd to stay alive, or dying and then constantly walking the tightrope of mp that is post death RDM, I'll just vercure myself.

A dead dps does no dps. If you're at critical HP and you're not confident in your healer it's better to vercure yourself than die. Often times healers are slow at reacting or too tunnel visioned on the tank. I'd say Red Mage having a potent cure is a big perk of playing the job. You aren't 100% reliant on the healer. Other dps are because second wind doesn't do much for them.

I can't count the number of times a healer rezzed someone and forgot to cure them. Once that invincibility wears off they immediately die to the next raid wide damage.

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Lucid being on a shorter cool down with lower potency is also contributing to mana issues. Requiring 2ogcd slots, every 2 minutes instead of 1.

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If used on cooldown, Lucid has greater total potency now with its 60s cooldown than it did with its 120s cooldown (cooldown was cut in half but potency was cut by less than half) so no, that's not the issue here.

What's far more likely to be the issue is players forgetting to use it. And let's be honest here; you don't have an off-gcd to weave inbetween EVERY pair of gcds, so that isn't the issue either.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

RDM mp economy is terrible. In a perfect run where nothing bad happens you'll get by just fine of course--but at that point why didn't you bring a BLM?

Delete. Verraise. Casters don't need to be able to raise. It's not a dps job or utility and things like this are imo a good reason why having raise is stupidly shackling. Summoner and Red Mage have this weird unique thing, not among casters but among all DPS where if they die, they're on the off-foot for the rest of the fight as far as resources are concerned. Both run serious risk of OOMing just from their basic rotation after death.

It's a silly phenomenon brought about by their need to balance the two for having the ability to raise.

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RDM only has mana issues after being ressed until Lucid Dreaming comes back up. It's certainly not the rest of the fight, nor is such an inconvenience worth losing Verraise to resolve, as it's easy enough to just not die the overwhelming majority of the time.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

RDM only has mana issues after being ressed until Lucid Dreaming comes back up. It's certainly not the rest of the fight, nor is such an inconvenience worth losing Verraise to resolve, as it's easy enough to just not die the overwhelming majority of the time.

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Lucid earns about as much as you spend normally attacking. Every time you rezz you're down 2500 for the rest of the fight. Unless there's downtime to make up for it.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Lucid earns about as much as you spend normally attacking. Every time you rezz you're down 2500 for the rest of the fight. Unless there's downtime to make up for it.

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I didn't bother to work it out entirely, but if you just spam Jolt and Verwhatever, that's 700 mana every 4.94 sec (with my SpS), which is a little under 6900 mana per minute. Since Verholy and Verflare cost 500 instead of 400, but you spend about 5 seconds not using mana every time you do a melee combo, every melee combo spends 600 mana (500 for the finisher + the extra 100 for Scorch), so it's actually 100 mana less than you'd spend in about the same amount of time. Lucid is worth 3500 mana per minute (500 * 7 ticks) and you passively regen 4000 mana per minute (200 every 3 sec). Before even accounting for any downtime, you have a surplus if you use Lucid Dreaming as much as you can.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

I didn't bother to work it out entirely, but if you just spam Jolt and Verwhatever, that's 700 mana every 4.94 sec (with my SpS), which is a little under 6900 mana per minute. Since Verholy and Verflare cost 500 instead of 400, but you spend about 5 seconds not using mana every time you do a melee combo, every melee combo spends 600 mana (500 for the finisher + the extra 100 for Scorch), so it's actually 100 mana less than you'd spend in about the same amount of time. Lucid is worth 3500 mana per minute (500 * 7 ticks) and you passively regen 4000 mana per minute (200 every 3 sec). Before even accounting for any downtime, you have a surplus if you use Lucid Dreaming as much as you can.

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Jolt 2 cost: 300
Veraero cost: 400
Verholy cost: 500
Scorch cost: 500

Melee combo would cost 1,000 MP, not 600.

Base MP tick rate: 200
Lucid MP tick rate: 500
Difference: 300

Lucid is then, only worth 2100 (300 * 7 ticks), not 3500. It's a distinction that has to be made because you're already counting passive MP regen per minute (200 * 20 = 4000). So with Lucid on cooldown, your regen per minute will be 6,100. Not 7,500. 800 MP deficit with Lucid on cooldown, not even counting for swift usage increasing average MP cost per second, not even counting the melee combo costs 400 more MP than you stated, not even counting for our guest of honor, Verraise with a whopping cost of 2,400 mp all on its lonesome.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Jolt 2 cost: 300
Veraero cost: 400
Verholy cost: 500
Scorch cost: 500

Melee combo would cost 1,000 MP, not 600.

Base MP tick rate: 200
Lucid MP tick rate: 500
Difference: 300

Lucid is then, only worth 2100 (300 * 7 ticks), not 3500. It's a distinction that has to be made because you're already counting passive MP regen per minute (200 * 20 = 4000). So with Lucid on cooldown, your regen per minute will be 6,100. Not 7,500. 800 MP deficit with Lucid on cooldown, not even counting for swift usage increasing average MP cost per second, not even counting the melee combo costs 400 more MP than you stated, not even counting for our guest of honor, Verraise with a whopping cost of 2,400 mp all on its lonesome.

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Actually, yeah, I calculated the finisher incorrectly, but it's 1000 mana in the same time you'd have spent 1400 mana if you kept spamming whatever, so it's still a relatively cheap span of time that drops the baseline mana spending from what I stated.

Lucid gives you 500 per 3 in addition to the 200 per 3. The ticks happen independently of each other.

You're still running a surplus with good Lucid usage.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Actually, yeah, I calculated the finisher incorrectly, but it's 1000 mana in the same time you'd have spent 1400 mana if you kept spamming whatever, so it's still a relatively cheap span of time that drops the baseline mana spending from what I stated.

Lucid gives you 500 per 3 in addition to the 200 per 3. The ticks happen independently of each other.

You're still running a surplus with good Lucid usage.

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I stand corrected on Lucid, I cede there.

700 MP cost per 4.94s = 141.7 MP/s

141.7 * 60 = 8,502.02

Subtract 400 because we can assume 1 melee combo per minute.

8,102.02 mana per minute.

How'd you get 6,900?

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

I stand corrected on Lucid, I cede there.

700 MP cost per 4.94s = 141.7 MP/s

141.7 * 60 = 8,502.02

Subtract 400 because we can assume 1 melee combo per minute.

8,102.02 mana per minute.

How'd you get 6,900?

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I hit the wrong button on the calculator it would seem, so I accidentally squared 2.47 instead of doubling it, and I wasn't paying attention so I didn't catch it.

/shrug

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

I hit the wrong button on the calculator it would seem, so I accidentally squared 2.47 instead of doubling it, and I wasn't paying attention so I didn't catch it.

/shrug

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It puts us back to a deficit of about 600 assuming no downtime and perfect Lucid usage. *shrug*

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

It puts us back to a deficit of about 600 assuming no downtime and perfect Lucid usage. *shrug*

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Yeah, but there are other considerations that are more irritating to account for, such as how many finishers per minute you're getting, since those consume less mana per second compared to baseline, and use of things like Moulinet and Reprisal, which also eliminate casts in favor of a 0 mana attack. My original claim is based off of play experience, as I've never found I had an issue following a res once I reached Lucid.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Yeah, but there are other considerations that are more irritating to account for, such as how many finishers per minute you're getting, since those consume less mana per second compared to baseline, and use of things like Moulinet and Reprisal, which also eliminate casts in favor of a 0 mana attack. My original claim is based off of play experience, as I've never found I had an issue following a res once I reached Lucid.

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Moulinet and reprisal are both losses over the general rotation, so using them to supplement the mp pool isn't a good thing (My RDM has done it, don't get me wrong. When it's a choice between casting and not casting...)

But more than just raising, this thread is about recovery from death. Which is incredibly hard to do. From first death you've essentially entered the MP rat race--living Lucid to Lucid. My statement from before holds true: Red Mage and Summoner are unique among all DPS in that they are the only ones that need to take post-death resources into mind, and it's because they have raise as a utility that otherwise could be used to zombie the party through an encounter.