BLM could use some button consolidation

A lot of BLM buttons seem to have become redundant lately and it feels like a few of them could be combined into one thing.

Blizzard 2 could upgrade to freeze, once you get freeze it completely replaces blizzard 2 in every way so there’s no point in them having separate buttons.

The same could be said for fire 2 and flare, but that might need a little rework.

Fire 4 and blizzard 4 are stance locked to astral fire and umbral ice so they could be consolidated into one button that changes based on your stance.

Blizzard could upgrade into blizzard 3 and like with fire 2, fire could upgrade into fire 3 with a little rework.

It just feels like a lot of BLM buttons are just taking up space right now when we don’t even use them for anything other than being level synced. It would be nice to see them combined or upgraded.

Blizzard I should upgrade into Blizzard III.
Leylines should become Between the Lines while active.

Those are the major two that come to mind.

Skills that can be consolidated in 5.0 [Proc/Summon Skills Consolidation]

BLM-

• Scathe becomes Xenoglossy under the effect of Polygot.
  
  
  
  https://i.imgur.com/4I1RWO6.png
• Leylines becomes Between the Lines after its used like Geirskogul and Nastrond.
  
  
  https://i.imgur.com/5hZQtzF.png
  
  
• Blizzard IV becomes Fire IV while under the effect of Astral Fire (or some varient of the two.)
  
  
  https://i.imgur.com/WqwhcXN.png

These suggestions don't outright remove the skills, just replaces them under certain conditions created by lockouts. Scathe isn't restricted by xenoglossy, but I honestly cannot think of a time where you might scathe instead of xenoglossy, outside of saving up for an aoe phase, but for some reason are down to just scathe? lol

The issue with fire 2 and flare is that, until 68, fire 2 is absolutely part of your aoe rotation. I'm all for Flare replacing it, but the aoe rotation will flat out need to be redesigned. Which I'm also all for because it's a bit of a mess between 50 and 72.

As a note, Enochian can also be rolled into fire/blizzard 4. You can't F4/B4 without Eno-chan, so it just makes sense.

BLM already has less buttons than most jobs, though I do agree from a QoL perspective that Ley Lines and Between the Lines really need to be a single button. B4 and F4 I would prefer to keep separate, but that is more personal preference.

The issue with rolling Blizzard into Blizzard III, or Fire into Fire III, is that B3/F3 have vastly longer cast times and higher MP costs (i.e. you don't want to be casting F3 in the middle of your F4 rotation), and honestly they are fine as is from a game play perspective (though I can see why the names may be misleading).

As for Fire II, it desperately needs as rework / upgrade; higher potency, shorter cast time, lower MP cost, all of the above, I don't care because as it is it's simply not worth using (in the general case) and leaves the BLM pre-level 68 AoE rotation feeling super clunky (assuming you don't just spam Freeze + Thundercloud which is basically as good if not better than trying to do a Fire II AoE rotation).

It would be nice to have obvious counterpart spells like fire4/blizz4 and laylines/between the lines to share a single button since they literally cannot be used outside of their intended context.
I'm not going to lose sleep over it though, I have enough buttons for everything.
I've also had since heavensward to get used to BLM too, not that it's so 2deep4u complex that you need three expansions to learn it.

I think I'd rather keep B4 and F4 separate, as it feels right to have fire and ice spells in separate parts of my hotbars.

But:
Leylines and Between the lines
B2 and Freeze
B1 and Umbral Soul
And maybe F2 and Despair.

These would make sense to me.

I second this! BLM has button bloat despite using only about 3/4 of them in your rotation.

• Combine Enochian, Fire IV and Blizzard IV into one button. You'll never Enochian if it's already up and each IV spell is phase-exclusive and Enochian-dependent anyway.
• Combine Umbral Soul and Despair into one button. A weirder choice sure, but again, each is phase-exclusive so there is never a scenario where you'll want access to both simultaneously. I would argue fully for even giving us the ability to just swap our bars completely based on which phase we're in, which we could theoretically do with a good macro.
• Fire II should upgrade into Flare. Current math shows you'll get more PPS out of spamming Freeze than alternating with Fire II to an empty MP bar. There is zero reason to even touch Fire II before we even get Flare. Just swap already.
• Upgrade Blizzard II to Freeze as well. Same reasons, plus Blizzard II's point-blank range is counter to literally every other spell in our kit.
• Have Between the Lines replace Ley Lines while it's active, until Ley Lines fades.
• Remove Scathe and just have Blizzard I become instant at that level. Blizzard I already serves no practical purpose after we get Blizzard III, at least this way we get an instant that will continue cycling UI, which we can semi-do with Umbral Soul so clearly it's not a concern at max level. We already avoid Scathe during AF phase so this is the natural conclusion.

I agree with leylines and between the lines. Though F4 and B4, if that change got made I'd still have 2 of them as it feels better to have my ice spells on shift modifier

Fire 2 and Blizzard 2 need some actual design work, but I think consolidating Enochian/Fire4/Blizzard4 and Leylines/BtL are no-brainers. I wouldn’t mind a combined Despair/Umbral Soul button, either.

People who prefer separate buttons could just put the “same” skill in two different places, or Square could make it possible to still assign single skills from the action screen.

Probably agree with Blizz 2 upgrading to Freeze it's simple to change that spell to basically be focused around the target rather than the pc and just have Freeze become a higher potency Blizz 2.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I think I'd rather keep B4 and F4 separate, as it feels right to have fire and ice spells in separate parts of my hotbars.

But:
Leylines and Between the lines
B2 and Freeze
B1 and Umbral Soul
And maybe F2 and Despair.

These would make sense to me.

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There are legitimate reasons to keep Blizzard 1 in the rotation, since you sometimes might want to extend your blizzard phase and using US instead of B1 would cost you some damage (in a situation that already costs you damage anyways). It's largely, but not entirely, redundant though.

I'd sooner completely redesign scathe and replace Umbral Soul with Scathe than replace Blizzard 1 with it. But as another post suggests, replacing Despair with Umbral Soul in UI would make more sense in general.

Furthermore, I'd also just push for upgrading Blizzard and Fire 1 into Blizzard and Fire 3 and just roll the proc nature for more free casts into it.

And something I'd personally like to see, especially because of the level 74 trait. Just turn Sharpcast into a trait. Make it guarantee that you get 1 free fire 1 proc per AF cycle, and have it increase the proc rate of Thunder spells, and just remove the oGCD from the class. It's almost always used on fire 1s anyways by most black mages who aren't trying to eek out the absolute best damage possible (which proccing firestarter often is better anyways), and gives more thunder procs, all for removing an oGCD that, at this point, I wish would just press itself every time I entered AF, even for aoe rotations.

I just don't have blizz1, scath, fire1, blizz2 on my bars. That's how I solve the issue

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

I just don't have blizz1, scath, fire1, blizz2 on my bars. That's how I solve the issue

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I question how you can play black mage then without fire 1 to keep your AF phase moving along :p.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

I question how you can play black mage then without fire 1 to keep your AF phase moving along :p.

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Meant f2 xD

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Furthermore, I'd also just push for upgrading Blizzard and Fire 1 into Blizzard and Fire 3 and just roll the proc nature for more free casts into it.

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I don't understand how you can simultaneously defend Blizzard 1's niche use in the rotation as a means to refresh UI before US, while also pushing for it to upgrade into a spell with a longer cast time or (even if it's the spell I most often Swiftcast 'cuz I got greedy with Fire IVs, or needed to move and keep AF going) Fire 1 into a more expensive one.

Furthermore, while I'm sure we can agree that BLM is braindead easy before level 60 (and probably even after that) due to never needing to worry about AF and UI upkeep, permanently upgrading Fire 1 into Fire 3 completely removes Firestarter, and even with a "chance to proc itself for free" replacement to FS like Thundercloud, reduces the entire rotation to a mere 3 buttons between levels 34 and 58.

I already hate the MSQ roulette enough as it is without being damned to that.

Instead, as I have previously stated, I would argue for Blizzard 1 to gain a trait at level 15 to make it an instant cast, instead of gaining Scathe -- and possibly (though I would debate this) even an upgrade to this trait to make Fire 1 instant around or after level 60 (so it better fits with Fire IV). Umbral Soul still would retain its niche as a means to refresh UI without a target and to generate Umbral Hearts, but Blizzard 1 would be more applicable than Scathe as a means to keep UI up on-the-go, on top of its greater PPS output.

I'd almost even be willing to argue for a higher spell speed and lower GCD in UI too, just so it doesn't feel like we only have 2 casts before switching.

Most propositions are not realistics. Lay line and between the lines are 2 coldown, even if between the line is a short. one. You can scathe without condition, even if xenoglossy is up. Etc.

For combine 2 spell you have to create a capacity which change depending if you are under condition like the pvp talents. Exemple ice 4 become fire 4.

Thats say you can create simple macro for that, so players keep the choice to keep each spell on the keyboard or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Casino

Most propositions are not realistics. Lay line and between the lines are 2 coldown, even if between the line is a short. one. You can scathe without condition, even if xenoglossy is up. Etc.

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They've done situational skill swaps like this for other jobs.
RDM’s melee combo or Verholy/Flare are skills with different recasts situationally replacing others when a certain effect is active.
Moulinet has a 2.5s recast, this becomes Enchanted Moulinet when you have enough B/W mana, which has a 1s recast.
Simply have Leylines become Between the Lines while the Leylines effect is active, with its 3s recast. When Leylines effect ends, put Leylines on recast. Reduce its recast to 60s to account for the 30s duration of the effect. Not a problem.

As for Scathe/Xenoglossy. You can use Scathe while Xenoglossy is available... but you’d never want to.
But to be honest, I wouldn’t miss Scathe if it was removed entirely.

transpose could turn some spells into aoe version and vice versa?
or a skill similar with the execution of Transpose

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

As for Scathe/Xenoglossy. You can use Scathe while Xenoglossy is available... but you’d never want to.

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I can't agree with this. Scathe doesn't cost Polyglot so there are definitely times I'd rather use Scathe than Xenoglossy. Using Scathe is far better against weak or underleveled enemies, or enemies with a fraction of HP. Being forced to use Xeno in those situations would be a complete waste and feel horrible.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

I can't agree with this. Scathe doesn't cost Polyglot so there are definitely times I'd rather use Scathe than Xenoglossy. Using Scathe is far better against weak or underleveled enemies, or enemies with a fraction of HP. Being forced to use Xeno in those situations would be a complete waste and feel horrible.

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If a Scathe would kill them, then so would any other attack from your party members. Just wait 1 second.
Might be a niche use in dungeons, but nothing essential and there's no pressure to save those couple seconds.
In a trial/raid setting, absolutely useless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Casino

Most propositions are not realistics. Lay line and between the lines are 2 coldown, even if between the line is a short. one. You can scathe without condition, even if xenoglossy is up. Etc.

For combine 2 spell you have to create a capacity which change depending if you are under condition like the pvp talents. Exemple ice 4 become fire 4.

Thats say you can create simple macro for that, so players keep the choice to keep each spell on the keyboard or not.

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As Seraphor stated, the capacity for many of these suggestions already exists in-game, particularly the dynamic skill replacement which is used by several other jobs like RDM finishers, SMN's Ruin, DNC's steps, AST's cards, etc; such methods simply haven't been deployed for BLM yet, even though they would be realistically applicable.
Meanwhile a majority of these suggestions are about combining buttons that are either mutually exclusive (like Fire IV and Blizzard IV, or Despair and Umbral Soul) or dependent upon one another (like BtL with Ley Lines, or the IV spells with Enochian), or outright trimming skills we already don't use because we have significantly better versions (the II spells, or Scathe).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duskane

transpose could turn some spells into aoe version and vice versa?
or a skill similar with the execution of Transpose

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Transpose is fine as it is, honestly. It's the only oGCD method to keep Enochian going, on top of being the only reliable instant means to do so without popping CDs until we get Umbral Soul. Even if it's an absolute last resort at 80, it's good to have such a tool on hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

If a Scathe would kill them, then so would any other attack from your party members. Just wait 1 second.
Might be a niche use in dungeons, but nothing essential and there's no pressure to save those couple seconds.
In a trial/raid setting, absolutely useless.

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In most cases sure, someone else will just kill it, but there might be times when you're the only one who notices or are the only one in position to attack. These are really niche situations but that's just the nature of Scathe. It's not normally worth casting. If you're just looking at it from a standard rotation point of view, then Scathe is useless (although in that case I'd just say take if off your bar instead of consolidating it with something else since at least you would have it as an option just in case).

Bringing up dungeons Scathe also useful for adds that can't be damaged but require attacking anyway. Adds like the mud pie in Saint Mocianne Hard. That particular example is a level 70 dungeon, but if the mechanic gets reused at 80, I'd much rather pay 1 hotbar slot than Polyglot. This is again something that you might count on your party for, but things don't always go as intended.

There are and will continu to exist some target posible to OS with scathe like the ice block of the myst dragon.