Divination & Math - Is it worth using in dungeons? Only in specific situations?

I'm having a hard time grasping the logic of divination. More specifically, why so much effort is regularly made towards it. In my mind, it seems much simpler to just make every card a lord or lady. If you gave all the normal cards perfectly, you've handed out a 18% increase to your party (3 x 6%), then divin gives an extra 6%, for 24% total.

whereas crowning each one would have produced 24% (3 x 8%) without divin.

Yes, divin is AOE - but is that truly critical? Maybe it would be easier and more efficient to just crown each card because the amount of DPS buff put out is the same.

I can see the AOE being more important in a trial or a raid, when there's lots of people.

But in a dungeon with four people? I'm thinking it may more more efficient to just crown everything.

Thoughts?

Hmm... and those Lords and Ladies can all go to DPS, whereas the AoE of Divination is diminished on Healer and Tank.

EDIT: I took your maths for granted, but actually you're not adding 6% from Div to 18%, you're adding 24%, because that 6% hits four people. So it's a total of 42%. But 12% of that is diminished, so effectively it's probably more like 36%, and less still with healer downtime.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Hmm... and those Lords and Ladies can all go to DPS, whereas the AoE of Divination is diminished on Healer and Tank.
So yeah, for 4-man parties you might be right.

EDIT: I took your maths for granted, but actually you're not adding 6% from Div to 18%, you're adding 18%, because that 6% hits four people. So it's a total of 36%. But 12% of that is diminished, so effectively it's probably more like 30%, and less still with healer downtime.

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I was afraid of my character limit in my original post, but you do see where I am coming from, so let me elaborate.

First, you really have to ask yourself how much you care about extra DPS to your tank and healer during a dungeon boss fight, or say, a large dungeon pull.

That's where the difference emerges, as you correctly note. When I said that you add 6% from div, I meant you add 6% specifically to that DPS.

If you give the DPS every seal, you will have given 18%, whereas giving them all as crown, would have have given 24%.

When you hit div, you give that specific DPS an additional 6%, but in reality, you are effectively compensating what the DPS would have received with just crowns!

As I said, a lot of this is gonna come down to how much you care about your tank and healer getting a buff in a 10-20 minute dungeon run with short boss fights.

Plan A) You give your DPS smaller buffs, but later on you will compensate with another buff that will also buff everyone else simultaneously

Plan B) You just give a steady stream of crowns to your DPS and they won't be gimped - only the tank and healer will be missing out.

The other thing to consider is the use of sleeve and redraw - doing that stuff obviously adds to your rotation.

You fiddle around with it, it takes up time, and none of that time goes towards healing or dealing damage.

I would honestly love to simulate both scenarios because removing the need to deal with sleeve and redraw could theoretically be better in some situations.

For example, someone in another thread actually noted their tank was the top DPS by a mile, so that person kept getting all the cards.

In that scenario, would you still try for div, or just keep giving the person with huge DPS a constant stream of crowns?

You have 2 DPS though, and chances are if ones ranged and the other's melee, then you'll be giving both of them cards.
So even discounting both Tank and Healer completely...

With Div:
3 x 6% + 2 x 6%(from Div) + 3 x 8% = 54% over 3 minutes
No Div:
6 x 8% = 48% over 3 minutes

If you consider Tank and Healer combined to match up with one DPS (Tank damage is approx. 70% of a DPS, Healer is approx. 50%, but with more downtime in dungeons could drop it a bit more) then the Diviniation rotations goes up to 60% over 3 minutes.


Or another way to think about it...

Diviniation is a free additional buff on top of all of your other cards, and it equals 6%.

In order to use it, you need to reduce three of your 8% cards down to 6%. That's a loss of 6%.
So for one DPS, it's breaking even, and the AoE effect of Divination on your other DPS is a gain.

The extra effort needed for seal hunting is not worth it most of the time.

If you find yourself using Redraw a lot.. the time lost could had gone for 1-2 malefic casts and totally ruins the debate about Divination being worth or not.

Pretty much the same apply to turning every card into Minor Arcana.. for some reason is not as fast as it used to before and it doesn't help you have to hit so many buttons to cast cards.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

You have 2 DPS though, and chances are if ones ranged and the other's melee, then you'll be giving both of them cards.
So even discounting both Tank and Healer completely...

With Div:
3 x 6% + 2 x 6%(from Div) + 3 x 8% = 54% over 3 minutes
No Div:
6 x 8% = 48% over 3 minutes

If you consider Tank and Healer combined to match up with one DPS (Tank damage is approx. 70% of a DPS, Healer is approx. 50%, but with more downtime in dungeons could drop it a bit more) then the Diviniation rotations goes up to 60% over 3 minutes.


Or another way to think about it...

Diviniation is a free additional buff on top of all of your other cards, and it equals 6%.

In order to use it, you need to reduce three of your 8% cards down to 6%. That's a loss of 6%.
So for one DPS, it's breaking even, and the AoE effect of Divination on your other DPS is a gain.

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Hmmm, ok. I guess I have been overly focused on that one DPS that's breaking even, and wondered if it was worth giving an extra buff to the others.

You have convinced me that it is.

I am now, as always, forever learning.

Why not both?

I don’t know if it’s a trash idea but I often find that Sleeve Draw is coming off cooldown around the same time as Divination. So I’ll generally get seals -> prepare lord/lady if possible -> Divination -> Lightspeed -> Sleeve Draw. This way you end up with Divination on the party and at least 2-4 DPS with Lord/Lady (or depending on luck naturally)

I don’t disagree that Divination feels very weak for such a huge cooldown though. And considering it’s the ability you’re supposed to build up to using, it doesn’t really feel like the reward is commensurate with the effort

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Originally Posted by BahamutxD

The extra effort needed for seal hunting is not worth it most of the time.

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Basically the attitude I'm taking.

I am quite sure Divination will eventually be adjusted to make all that work a little more worth it. We are still dealing with initial release numbers. Question is: what should those figures be adjusted to?

The numbers are already wonky as is despite how low they are. As an example getting three of one seal would take the same effort as getting one of each seal, but this returns the lowest increase to DPS; while it is next to impossible to not get at least two different seals, which returns the second highest. I like Divination, but it needs work.

Honestly with a 3m CD, Sleeve Draw needs to fill everything up like it used to before. Randomize the 3 seals gained so it's not always max dmg.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Honestly with a 3m CD, Sleeve Draw needs to fill everything up like it used to before. Randomize the 3 seals gained so it's not always max dmg.

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This sounds good, in fact...

Sleeve Draw:
Gives you 2 CD free Draws (3 is unnecessary if you’ve just used one, and less Draws to try to weave)
Generates 3 random seals (thus why only 2 Draws are necessary, no matter what seals you get, you only need 2 to fix it)
Reduces the cooldown of Divination by 60s. (adds in a Divination buff via a reduced cooldown, but only from level 70 onwards)

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned as well is that iirc Divination stacks with normal cards. So that 6% aoe could be in conjunction with a Lord or Lady on one of the DPS. I'm not positive since I haven't tested it myself but I do remember reading that in another thread somewhere that they stack.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Diviniation is a free additional buff

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obviously, no matter what, OGCD skills are going to be "worth it"
so i don't understand the direction of this post

you're reducing a few cards damage, by a few %, to get an AoE buff that has more damage
of course it's "worth it"

the real problem is, no, it's not "free"
this whole card mechanic is taking up 7 buttons on our bar
not only is that the definition of button bloat (one mechanic that relies on each other for applying a damage buff that's mediocre at best), but that's losing us other "useful" buttons

on top of other lower potencies, but these can be ignored, assuming they'll be fixed, or if the card system itself actually made up for the lack of potencies

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Originally Posted by BahamutxD

the time lost could had gone for 1-2 malefic casts and totally ruins the debate about Divination being worth or not.

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this makes no sense
again, it's OGCD
it doesn't get in the way of Malefic casts at all

but yea, it's definitely just a poorly designed, clunky mechanic overall that needs to be overhauled again if they refuse to revert it, which, fine, that's perfectly fair, if it was too strong and they couldn't balance it, what ever, sure

but seriously

don't give us this garbage in return

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

You have 2 DPS though, and chances are if ones ranged and the other's melee, then you'll be giving both of them cards.
So even discounting both Tank and Healer completely...

With Div:
3 x 6% + 2 x 6%(from Div) + 3 x 8% = 54% over 3 minutes
No Div:
6 x 8% = 48% over 3 minutes

If you consider Tank and Healer combined to match up with one DPS (Tank damage is approx. 70% of a DPS, Healer is approx. 50%, but with more downtime in dungeons could drop it a bit more) then the Diviniation rotations goes up to 60% over 3 minutes.


Or another way to think about it...

Diviniation is a free additional buff on top of all of your other cards, and it equals 6%.

In order to use it, you need to reduce three of your 8% cards down to 6%. That's a loss of 6%.
So for one DPS, it's breaking even, and the AoE effect of Divination on your other DPS is a gain.

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This is bad math. You have to remember that your percentages are against the entire party. A 8% buff isn't 8% on the whole party unless you put it on the whole party. It's 6 x 8% / # in party. If it's a 4 man, you're down to 12%. if it's an 8 man, you're down to 6%.

And it gets worse, that's presuming those buffs last the entire 3m. They last 15s. Sleeve Draw and Divination recast at 180s, so you get to do them once in 3m.

Assuming you can blast them out instantly (you can't), and compressing things so there's at least something of a compromise between accuracy and simplicity...

Window is 180s, so will be our divisor.
Fire Divination to give a 6% buff to all for 15s, then drum through Minor Arcana to drop 4x 8% buffs on everyone else, also for 15s. If they stack you've given 14% buff to 4 people for 15s. So +14% party DPS for 15s
30s later, you get a card again and can use it for a seal for 6% buff for another 15s, a total of 6 of them. That gets you 3*6% / 4 * 15s, or +4.5% party DPS for 15s.
Then you get 3 you can Minor Arcana, which gives you 3*8% / 4 * 15s, +6% party DPS for 15s.
So, 14% * 15s + 4.5% * 15s + 6% * 15s
(210 + 67.5 + 90) / 180s = ....

+2.04%? party DPS over 3m? That's for a 4-man. For 8 it's +1% party DPS.

Man, after that napkin math, cards don't even seem worth the trouble. I might just stop using them.