Lack of potion/Ether use

I have been very disappointed on the lack of use for potions. As a r50 Alchemist I have been waiting patiently for recipe reform. Now that has come I see nobody using the potions/ethers.

I have been trying them out and find them to be pretty useful. Especially in boss fights I find the mega -Ether to be a nice boost of MP. I have not yet used Elixirs although I have made a few.

I am not 100% how to make these items more used by the players. Any other Alchemist noticed the same issues/ or have a solution.

Thanks

personally I haven't even checked for them yet cause Im guessing they are overpriced as hell.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

personally I haven't even checked for them yet cause Im guessing they are overpriced as hell.

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I think it's a mix of this and the fact that people have spent a year and a half playing without Alchemy products. It just needs time for post-patch prices to level off and for people to discover all the boons these new items offer.

I used a mega Vit on my pld last night and got 40 Vit bonus I havent yet tested the numbers. But I will try over the next few days.

Also what would you feel would be a fair price for mega potion/ethers? I was thinking 5k each?

If it is not necessary to the success of a mission, most players will often forgoe costly luxuries such as these. There is no argument against the usefulness that they represent. Certainly a number of deaths and perhaps wipes could be avoided. But as the above post mentions, most players up until now have done very well without the use of such alchemical products. It will take time as much as difficult content in order to change this habit.

Truth to be told, i've recently took up to utilizing potions a lot. Most specifically, the ones I got off of leves since I had a billion of them stockpiled and good heavens, they are actually useful at least for low-level levelling.

I agree with you on that I just work so hard on Alchemy lol and I would like to see it be useful. Until then I will just keep handing them our to my LS and hopefully it will help us get through the content a little easier.

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Originally Posted by Headseed

Also what would you feel would be a fair price for mega potion/ethers? I was thinking 5k each?

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5k sounds fair to me, im not sure if they are overpriced but after a patch everything usually is so i haven't even looked.

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Originally Posted by Headseed

Also what would you feel would be a fair price for mega potion/ethers? I was thinking 5k each?

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How much do they even restore now?

mega potion/ ethers restore 20% up to 600

i am a cul 50 and cant stop craftig since release. Maybe i sell sutff because i sell cheaper than other retainers ( yeah i under cut you mr. I will charge you 6K for something that costs 2k or even less to make). So try what i do a put a modest price on your merchandise. Good luck

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Originally Posted by Matsume

most players will often forgoe costly luxuries such as these

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This. If you want players to use them, you need to make them cheap. Even food isn't that expensive, and it lasts for half an hour. Medicines are either an instant effect, or last for a mere 40 seconds. This means that if a player is going to be using them effectively during a fight, they will be using several.

Whether it means popping potions to help survive a heavy duty boss or to reduce the need for the healer to heal folks other than the tank, or popping ethers to allow you to blow your MP away like crazy, or even using the various stat potions, any strategy where medicines are used will usually require a lot of them to be used. People will not require this a viable strategy if it requires plopping down an extra 50k each fight. However, if it only requires maybe an extra 2k gil spent on medicines, folks will be a lot more willing to spend the gil. I know folks can get plenty of gil from leves, but folks tend to be stingy when it comes to consumables. It's easy to justify spending all that money on a highly expensive piece of gear: It may last you for the rest of the game, and you can sell it back if need be. Spending a lot of money on potions is a different matter: It lasts you those 40 seconds, and then that money is gone, never to be seen again.

If you want players to not see them as a luxury item, you need to start by not seeing it as a luxury item yourself. I use plenty of potions myself, but that's because I make them myself for cheap. Hell, throat drops saved my party's ass last night. If I had to spend 50k gil over the course of a fight to avoid silence though? I'd tell my tank "Sorry bro, I was silenced. Better luck next time."

I want to use them! :) And I have 99 Ahriman Wings, and other mats for my ALC friends but my question is "where the hell are the Vampire Plants?" I would love to have Elixers on hand.

Many folks are busy trying to do every job/af thing as fast as possible (like they are going away next week) have faith once that settles folks will be exploring all the other cool changes with the new patch.

Keep crafting! :)

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Originally Posted by OwenLacroix

I want to use them! :) And I have 99 Ahriman Wings, and other mats for my ALC friends but my question is "where the hell are the Vampire Plants?" I would love to have Elixers on hand.

Many folks are busy trying to do every job/af thing as fast as possible (like they are going away next week) have faith once that settles folks will be exploring all the other cool changes with the new patch.

Keep crafting! :)

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My LS got some in the chest after killing Deepvoid Slave in Darkhold. Only place I've seen them.

As someone said before, there needs to be some content that needs the items, although it seems they help right now, until LS leaders are doing checks or reminding members to bring items to do things like remove silence or wake you when your slept (if the fights really tough then potions/ethers also), they will not be popular. Only those that like to be ready for anything will carry them and most people don't like to take up inventory space for that.

Remembering back to my FFXI days (stopped playing about a month before 80 cap) I only bought Potions and Ethers for the CoP missions and for lower-level BCNMs and some other one time stuff. I bought for CoP missions (I helped a ton of people do missions because I found the challenge fun) because they were almost a must in most cases (can't always get the good players) to win the fight without 5/6 people dead and someones 2h finishing the boss off while on red HP. The ones for BCNMs were to make sure I got the win when soloing them. Outside of those one time deals or just helping people on CoP, I always carried the normal stuff for endgame events. (invis/snk/poison/sleep/ and the remove silence ones)

I don't know about you guys, but my LS has been using them, and not even to their full potential. Mega-ethers/potions are great in a bind when you don't want to make your WHM peel off the tank to help you out, or can't afford to wait for mp regen. The stat pots are basically THE way to min/max your DPS on caster/DD depending on how well your tank keeps hate. If your tank can't keep hate as well? Maddening potions/Nerve drops are great for that too. That's only a few examples, too. I don't understand why people aren't utilizing the new recipes more often because I sure am.

Headseed, I'm on your server, and have been looking for potions daily, but never see the ones I want for sale. Make some nerve drops man! lol

We have committed 5 mill of our LS bank to potions, and supplies for 5 chest SPEED runs only.

However, using them is a different story.... HAHA~

I thought 1.21 would give a huge boost to Alchemists, but it doesn't seem to have turned out that way.

The biggest thing holding me back from using potions and ethers is their effective duration and re-use times compared to food items.

As a mage, I'd love to have Hi- or Mega-Potions of the Mind and Piety, but at just 40 seconds effect duration and a 3 ~ 4 minute re-use it hardly seems worth it.

Elixirs, on the other hand, look very interesting despite their long cooldowns.
But they are scarce in the markets on Saronia and very overpriced when they do appear.

Hopefully SE will keep an eye on the situation and adjust things to make them more appealing and accessible.

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Originally Posted by OwenLacroix

I want to use them! :) And I have 99 Ahriman Wings, and other mats for my ALC friends but my question is "where the hell are the Vampire Plants?" I would love to have Elixers on hand.

Many folks are busy trying to do every job/af thing as fast as possible (like they are going away next week) have faith once that settles folks will be exploring all the other cool changes with the new patch.

Keep crafting! :)

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I got vampire plants from the level forty leves out in nine ivies. happy hunting

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Originally Posted by Mikita

I thought 1.21 would give a huge boost to Alchemists, but it doesn't seem to have turned out that way.

The biggest thing holding me back from using potions and ethers is their effective duration and re-use times compared to food items.

As a mage, I'd love to have Hi- or Mega-Potions of the Mind and Piety, but at just 40 seconds effect duration and a 3 ~ 4 minute re-use it hardly seems worth it.

Elixirs, on the other hand, look very interesting despite their long cooldowns.
But they are scarce in the markets on Saronia and very overpriced when they do appear.

Hopefully SE will keep an eye on the situation and adjust things to make them more appealing and accessible.

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I'd also like a longer duration and/or a shorter recast, because that means that you have to understand a fight before going into it. For example, in the Coincounter fight, a lot of BLMs will pop nerve drops because it's a fairly stable fight and you'll get more attacks over time out of a negative enmity potion. But at Chimera I use ethers, because the fight is somewhat of an mp drain (for me, at least), so the little boost helps.

I mean, it's not necessarily a bad thing that you can't stack potions or use them in succession, but it'd be more useful if the recast were shorter, or if perhaps the 4 min. recast only counted for potions of the same category (can't use 2 ethers in a row), but for other types (drops, INT pots, etc) the recast were something like 10-30 seconds. That way you could get the most out of a type of potion, but you couldn't spam that type over and over again.

I don't know if increasing the duration over 1 min. or so would be beneficial overall though, because the longer potions last the smaller the need for food. Stat. pots are intended for your strongest actions to provide an extra burst, if they lasted longer than a minute it would be a little overkill. Or at least if they do decide to add potions that increase stats which last longer, the ingredients need to be very rare in order to keep a bottle neck on their supply, so that the food market doesn't crash.

I'm not sure what to say about it, yet. Where I am the market isn't really developing, and the materials for the potions can be relatively expensive, therefore the cost of the potion is relatively expensive. There's also the additional problem of inventory slots being taken up by situational items, and many players already have inventory issues.

If people use these items sparingly, it's going to be very easy for the market to get saturated, if any market for these items does appear.

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Originally Posted by TheFatHousecat

Or at least if they do decide to add potions that increase stats which last longer, the ingredients need to be very rare in order to keep a bottle neck on their supply, so that the food market doesn't crash.

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That's true. They need to make sure the food and medicine markets both remain viable.

Perhaps I'll experiment with medicines for their recovery powers rather than enhancing effects (leaving that to food).

Potions or Ethers for HP and MP recovery could be very useful if a fight starts going badly, or in places like the poison rooms of Aurum Vale.

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Originally Posted by Platinumstorm

I'm not sure what to say about it, yet. Where I am the market isn't really developing, and the materials for the potions can be relatively expensive, therefore the cost of the potion is relatively expensive. There's also the additional problem of inventory slots being taken up by situational items, and many players already have inventory issues.

If people use these items sparingly, it's going to be very easy for the market to get saturated, if any market for these items does appear.

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The mats are all easily gathered (well, if you have friends who have FSH leveled ;D), so I honestly don't have an issue with the supply part, it's probably just really expensive because not a lot of people are selling them and those who are have the option to overprice. Inv. slots I can see there being an issue with, but you should just have 1~3 slots take up depending on the class you use most often/need.

Then again, I'm making pots almost exclusively for my LS and getting a hunk of the amount of mats from gatherers within it, so I can't really say anything about supply/demand in the wards.

there's 4 problems i see with the new mega potions and elixers.

1. the duration on them is only good for a very short burst of results. ex: a blm can only get a little over 1 combo off in the time it lasts.

2. the materials for the items are quite expensive to buy to make the items. on my server if you bought the mats to make the potions you would be spending over 6k a piece for them. i have mine up for 5k each because i farmed my own mats, but since people aren't willing to buy the finished products for that i just sell the individual mats at market value. i'm selling 10x as many of the materials as i am the finished products.

3. you add the duration of the item with the cost to make the item and they are just not enough value for the gil right now. hopefully they will look at these again and make adjustments to make them a viable item to make, sell, buy, and use.

4. the long cool down between uses. if you use one you get 30-40 seconds of results and anywhere from 3-5 minutes between uses. it's also not helping that you use an elixer and get silenced you cannot use the drop to cure that so it doesn't benefit you to keep both types on you.

darkstar, you cannot really complain about the market state if you aren't helping it, which is a big gripe of mine and perhaps a bit offtopic.
You say that the materials cost more than the finished product, great, mine your own materials, sell them cheaper at what you consider reasonable prices, create your own finished product and sell at a reasonable price. Then proceed to attempt to convince others to do so.
Start the goddamn change in the market! That is the one portion of the game that is completely player-driver and if a player doesn't takes up to himself to change it, it'll remain as-is forever.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

there's 4 problems i see with the new mega potions and elixers.

1. the duration on them is only good for a very short burst of results. ex: a blm can only get a little over 1 combo off in the time it lasts.

2. the materials for the items are quite expensive to buy to make the items. on my server if you bought the mats to make the potions you would be spending over 6k a piece for them. i have mine up for 5k each because i farmed my own mats, but since people aren't willing to buy the finished products for that i just sell the individual mats at market value. i'm selling 10x as many of the materials as i am the finished products.

3. you add the duration of the item with the cost to make the item and they are just not enough value for the gil right now. hopefully they will look at these again and make adjustments to make them a viable item to make, sell, buy, and use.

4. the long cool down between uses. if you use one you get 30-40 seconds of results and anywhere from 3-5 minutes between uses. it's also not helping that you use an elixer and get silenced you cannot use the drop to cure that so it doesn't benefit you to keep both types on you.

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I definitely agree with points 1 and 3... not as someone who makes and sells them (because I can't) but from a buyer's point of view.

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Originally Posted by Skies

You say that the materials cost more than the finished product, great, mine your own materials, sell them cheaper at what you consider reasonable prices, create your own finished product and sell at a reasonable price. Then proceed to attempt to convince others to do so.

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It's not just gil... it's about time, which to me is FAR more valuable.

Farming materials takes time. Getting your craft up to the level where you can make these items takes a huge amount of time.


Ultimately a balance needs to be struck between time cost, gil cost, and effect/duration.
Right now we are not at that balance point and so these items are selling or being used much.

SE can help to nudge things in the right direction, and hopefully they will do so in upcoming patches.

If you are able to sell the materials for the potions/ethers, you are still contributing to the economy since that means someone somewhere is making and using them. I've been leveling up off of mega-potions and now mega-ethers, farmed/gathered all the mats and splitting them among my LS, selling the excess on the wards. Obviously if you are already capped Alchemist then you really aren't getting anything for your time if it earns you more money for selling materials instead and that's your call.

It really does depend on your server, though. On Istory you can buy all the materials for Mega-Potions from the wards/NPCs and still turn at the very least a small profit, and really the most "difficult" item to get is the Sagolii Sage. Mega-ethers are similar in that the only relatively uncommon item is the Black Truffle, with the rest of the materials being dirt-cheap or otherwise easy to get on your own. I haven't checked the price on Black Truffles since I gather them myself but they would be the deciding factor between selling them or the finished Ether. If it makes more money selling the Truffles eventually more people will start selling them and drive the price down, resulting in more people selling the finished ethers for a profit.

yeah. its the re-use duration penality that is making all the potions completely worthless

it means you get to use 1 potion of a fight. and the remove stats effect potions are uttergarbage when fighting multipule mos that are spamming poison blind or what ever

only certian pots should have a reuse timer like elixers and ungents but not 10 min therrible

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Originally Posted by Vassteel1

yeah. its the re-use duration penality that is making all the potions completely worthless

it means you get to use 1 potion of a fight. and the remove stats effect potions are uttergarbage when fighting multipule mos that are spamming poison blind or what ever

only certian pots should have a reuse timer like elixers and ungents but not 10 min therrible

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I think it's a combination of this and the fact that everyone has gone forever without bothering to use them.

As it stands right now, some of the potions are not completely useless. They are just not worth the high prices that we Alchemists feel they should be selling for.

I agree with Vaasteel, the status removal potions are mostly worthless given the fact that you have to wait so long to use it again, when mobs are spamming the ability.

As for some of the others though, Mega-Potions, Mega-Ethers and Elixirs. They are not worthless at all. It would be great to see the reuse timer reduced a bit, but my LS has been using them and has actually found them to be helpful in "Oh Shit!" situations.

The stat boosting ones, can be useful, but again it only gives you enough time for 1 combo and then you likely wont be able to use it again during the entire fight.

It all boils down to the cost vs how effective they currently are. Farm up your own mats to reduce your production costs and lower your prices. They will sell eventually. You might not be getting rich off them anytime soon, but they will sell.

Just cross you fingers and hope SE takes note of our opinions in this subject and makes some adjustments to help things improve.

Since there were questions about rare mats and better re-use timers or longer duration. What if those were effected by using materia in the recipe?

If a +str materia was used on a Hi-str potion, you get maybe a bigger boost or a longer duration etc.

While materia prices may go up it would also help spread out their usage. and help keep the added inventory use down since it would likely be an item most of us already have. Not to mention those who don't need them could sell them. And everyone can get themselves Materia.

This could also boost the sales of all items since people would be more likely to buy items to make into materia.

Better materia, better boost-longer lasting etc.

The expansion and use of all items could be helped here, and the bonus is...

Materia would also cease to exsist entirely making extra room for more. Thoughts?