[Spoilers] Rethinking the Twelve

I was thinking about the story so far and my mind dwelt on the topic of the Twelve. With our actual knowledge, I thought...

We know of the Convocation of Fourteen and the fact that one member left.
Now, this is just a speculation... that member is the original soul of the WoL and she/he may have formed a group to counter the convocation and the summoning of Zodiark.
What if the members of that newly formed group were actually those we know as The Twelve? Imho, The convocation was left with 13 members and the anti-zodiark group was formed by 12 members plus the WoL.

Another speculation: we now that someone can take up the mantle of a primal (For example, Ysayle and Yotsuyu). In my theory, Elidibus took up the mantle of Zodiark and the WoL took up the mantle of Hydaelyn. That would explain why the WoL is her champion and why Elidibus is the Emissary of Zodiark. Also, it would explain why after the sundering the anti-zodiark group was formed by twelve members: probably something happened to the WoL after the sundering, either she/he died or she/he was still fused with Hydaelyn during that mortal life.

Last speculation: what if destiny is pulling the string together and important characters of the story are actually reincarnations of the Twelve?
I tried to identify them...

WoL (Hydaelyn)
Lousioux (Althyk) [The Keeper. Louisoix conjured the power of Althyk during the final battle with Bahamut to deliver the adventurers to a safer place]
Minfilia (Menphina) [Similar Names. Daugther of Althyk. Lover of Oschon]
Thancred (Oschon) [The Wanderer and divine lover of Menphina]
Alisiae&Alphinaud (Nald'thal) [Twins]
Y'shtola (Nophica) [The Matron, daughter of Azeyma]
Urianger (Thaliak) [The Scholar]
Byregot (Cid) [The Builder]
Matoya (Azeyma) [The Warden. She is the mother of Nophica]
? (Llymlaen)
? (Rhalgr) [Maybe Papalymo?]
? (Nymeia)

And bear with me...
Zenos (Halone) [The description of Halone during the creation myth matches Zenos too well] [Maybe he will become an ally in the future? Who knows.]

Your thoughts on this topic?

Tataru would be Nymeia, as she fits the Spinner description pretty aptly. If you want to go by their ARR/2.0 roles, Y'shtola would be Llymlaen and Yda/Lyse would be Nophica.

i think it more likely that halone is estinian

Worth noting that some of the Twelves lore does seem to match up with the Ancients Creation Magic; Llymlaen creating the twin serpents Thalaos and Perykos, for example. Heck, given those were unleashed to create the oceans, and Amaurot sits at the bottom of the ocean... One wonders what the motivation for that was... Either way, the little run through Akadaemia Anyder certainly had me thinking on the Twelves relation to all this... Heck, in Eden we just summoned a... twin headed version of Leviathan... which we unleashed to restore water to the Empty...

Now, I'm not sure about the whole reincarnation thing, but I'm certainly leaning to the idea that the Convocation of Fourteen had a mirror upon Hyaelyns summoning. The Fourteenth (who is presumably us) left, and gathered Twelve like-minded friends (or Thirteen, depending how you want to work Nald'Thal), who are the Twelve. Upon successfully completing their mission by summoning Hydaelyn and ushering in the Sundering, they set about covering up history in order to prevent anyone remembering and attempting to undo their work, hence Llymlaen flooding Amaurot, then they simply left. Perhaps the three Ascians who survived the Sundering were hiding at this point and the Twelve didn't think any of them survived, it makes sense for them to leave in that case, since their belief ran counter to the Ascians; The Ascians believed only they should be stewards of the star, while those who summoned Hydaelyn seemed to believe the Ancients time was over and they should move on, let this new form of life have its chance. Wouldn't want to be getting in the way if that's the case.

Oh, and it's perhaps also worth noting that the Ancients seem to have a very strong Greek theme going for them. Now, the Twelve always seemed interesting to me in their lore, simply because of how fleshed out it was. They were brothers, sisters, parents, rivals, etc., they were far more humanized than other "Gods", much like the real world ancient pantheons (such as the Greeks), meanwhile all other "Gods" in Eorzea were far more monotheistic. Now it makes a whole lot more sense for them to have those connections, why is Thaliak father to Llymlaen? Because as Ancients they were merely people like that.

Good theory. I don't think non-echo people would relate to the twelve however.

We don't have 12 echo people that I know of so far.

Minfillia did have echo though.


Also of note is in the mythos, the twelve surrendered the world to the children of men and left to some other place.
That goes hand in hand with Amouratines basically dying or joining the lifestream and letting the world belong to mortals.

I find it curious that Norvrandt has little reference to the Twelve or similar. The dominant religion was instead "Church of the First Light" until it became unpopular, while Ronka had those four guardian deities.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

I find it curious that Norvrandt has little reference to the Twelve or similar. The dominant religion was instead "Church of the First Light" until it became unpopular, while Ronka had those four guardian deities.

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Even on the Source, Twelve Worship never seems to have made it as a far as Othard.

OP that is a galaxy brain post and now I'm shook. I hope the connections do come into play because I do think the twelve will have some relevance in patches to come. Not as gods but more into Ascian influence and connections to the shards as they are.

It is worth noting that the summoners of Hydaelyn were specifically mentioned as sacrificing themselves to summon her. So they probably never even lived long enough to see or go through the Sundering.

While certainly the implication is that the WoL is reincarnated piece of the 14 Convocation's soul, I've also been entertaining the theory that Minfillia/Ryne actually are the holder of that spot. Minfillia always seemed to have a deeper connection to Hydaelyn than even the WoL and her role as Word of the Mother would seem to be one to be held by the one who came up with the idea to summon Her.

Another reason I've been entertaining this idea is due to the battle with Hades, specifically when we break free from the chains he puts on us near the end and Light swells up briefly. I've had two theories as to what this specifically represents.

1.) The more likely one IMO, is that Hydaelyn intervened at this specific point in our favor to give us just the edge we needed to end the fight. Of course she's still greatly weakened thus why the Light started fading so quickly after we were freed. Thus the "Warden's Light" would be hers, the one who imprisoned Zodiark.

2.) Rather than Hydaelyn we did free ourselves with a great surge of Light at that point with slight aid from our Blessing. Again explains why it fades, but the important part here is the "Warden's Light." Because who among the Twelve has that title? Azeyma, thus meaning if the Warden comment was supposed to be about the WoL instead of Hydaelyn that gives heavy implications towards who the original owner of the WoL full soul is.

Personally I also feel if the rest of the Scions were also part of the group who summoned Hydaelyn, Twelve or not, they'd also have the Echo. But we don't even fully understand it yet though given how much we've learned this xpac that may been one of the things that will be answered in the not-so-distant future.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

While certainly the implication is that the WoL is reincarnated piece of the 14 Convocation's soul, I've also been entertaining the theory that Minfillia/Ryne actually are the holder of that spot. Minfillia always seemed to have a deeper connection to Hydaelyn than even the WoL and her role as Word of the Mother would seem to be one to be held by the one who came up with the idea to summon Her.

Another reason I've been entertaining this idea is due to the battle with Hades, specifically when we break free from the chains he puts on us near the end and Light swells up briefly. I've had two theories as to what this specifically represents.

1.) The more likely one IMO, is that Hydaelyn intervened at this specific point in our favor to give us just the edge we needed to end the fight. Of course she's still greatly weakened thus why the Light started fading so quickly after we were freed. Thus the "Warden's Light" would be hers, the one who imprisoned Zodiark.

2.) Rather than Hydaelyn we did free ourselves with a great surge of Light at that point with slight aid from our Blessing. Again explains why it fades, but the important part here is the "Warden's Light." Because who among the Twelve has that title? Azeyma, thus meaning if the Warden comment was supposed to be about the WoL instead of Hydaelyn that gives heavy implications towards who the original owner of the WoL full soul is.

Personally I also feel if the rest of the Scions were also part of the group who summoned Hydaelyn, Twelve or not, they'd also have the Echo. But we don't even fully understand it yet though given how much we've learned this xpac that may been one of the things that will be answered in the not-so-distant future.

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I personally thought he was talking about the title of the 14th Convocation member at the time, like how Elidbus is Emissary, Lahabrea is Speaker and Emet himself is Architect.... but looking back on it it seems more likely he was talking about the Lightwardens' Light. Like he is wondering that the stress of battle caused us to actually succumb, but then realizes it's the power of the Blessing.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

I personally thought he was talking about the title of the 14th Convocation member at the time, like how Elidbus is Emissary, Lahabrea is Speaker and Emet himself is Architect.... but looking back on it it seems more likely he was talking about the Lightwardens' Light. Like he is wondering that the stress of battle caused us to actually succumb, but then realizes it's the power of the Blessing.

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Thats...a very good point actually. I just got so used to that being specifically [B]Light[B]warden instead of just Warden that it didn't even register for that part.

My theory is void then!

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Thats...a very good point actually. I just got so used to that being specifically [B]Light[B]warden instead of just Warden that it didn't even register for that part.

My theory is void then!

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To be fair, we had an entire zone's worth of lorebombs dropped onto our heads and made us completely forget about most of the terms used in the previous 90-ish percent of the story :P

EDIT: It has come to my attention that Emet-Selch is most likely NOT the Architect of the Convocation.

When you are gathering info in Amaurot and talk to the Ancient in the Bureau of the Architect, they say that we came to the wrong office.

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Originally Posted by Bianca_Sweetmoon

And bear with me...
Zenos (Halone) [The description of Halone during the creation myth matches Zenos too well] [Maybe he will become an ally in the future? Who knows.]

Your thoughts on this topic?

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This is the main thing that threw me.

Going on the assumption that the Echo is the sign of a sundered Amaurotine soul (it seems to be the one power we share with the Ascians) that rules out Zenos, as he doesn't have the Echo, he needed an artificial resonant.

This also rules out any of the scions who don't have the Echo.


The Twelve could symbolically represent the Scions, but I doubt they're all actual reincarnations or fragments of them.

What do pppl think about edens signature move and the roman numerals?
As far ad we know it implies either a connection to 'The Twelve' or a connection to the Ascians, right?

What I also wonder about:
It is said that before the first calamity the Twelve walked on the realm.
What I'm curious about is, based on all we know (and the above is kinda true)... what are they?

If I assume it's former Ancient people then how does this work? Because before the first calamity everyone should be quite powerless (no rejoined Ancient souls yet).

Were the summoners of Hydalien transformed into those 'gods' instead of being sundered (or maybe they were just unsundered Ancient, bcs that's pretty much the same as being a god)?

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

If I assume it's former Ancient people then how does this work? Because before the first calamity everyone should be quite powerless (no rejoined Ancient souls yet).

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It may depend on when Midgardsormr showed up. Until he negotiated working as a living aether-dam in exchange for cheap rent there would have been a lot of aether just sloshing around free to use, regardless of everyone's individual aetherpools (something of a major design-flaw with Hydaelyn, IMO).

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

What do pppl think about edens signature move and the roman numerals?
As far ad we know it implies either a connection to 'The Twelve' or a connection to the Ascians, right?

What I also wonder about:
It is said that before the first calamity the Twelve walked on the realm.
What I'm curious about is, based on all we know (and the above is kinda true)... what are they?

If I assume it's former Ancient people then how does this work? Because before the first calamity everyone should be quite powerless (no rejoined Ancient souls yet).

Were the summoners of Hydalien transformed into those 'gods' instead of being sundered (or maybe they were just unsundered Ancient, bcs that's pretty much the same as being a god)?

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Personally I just see it as a direct reference to Eden's animation in FFVIII. From the moment the symbols appear on the planet to galaxy exploding is a 1 to 1 HD version of the animation, and as such likely carries no extra significance.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

I personally thought he was talking about the title of the 14th Convocation member at the time, like how Elidbus is Emissary, Lahabrea is Speaker and Emet himself is Architect.... but looking back on it it seems more likely he was talking about the Lightwardens' Light. Like he is wondering that the stress of battle caused us to actually succumb, but then realizes it's the power of the Blessing.

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Just adding to this for further confirmation, the text box for the fight specifically says Wardens, plural. It's 100% referring to the Lightwardens, unless one wants to suppose it's a typo.

Well I do think the twelve are the group of ancients that banded together to summon Hydaelyn. I don't think current people are a manifestation of the twelve.

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Originally Posted by RenewalXVII

Just adding to this for further confirmation, the text box for the fight specifically says Wardens, plural. It's 100% referring to the Lightwardens, unless one wants to suppose it's a typo.

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"Has the Wardens' Light won free!? No... Damn you... Damn your wretched Blessing! I will extinguish the spark of your miserable lives! That Light split the world, and every life upon it!"

The plural possessive makes it pretty blatant that he means the Lightwardens, and then whose Light it is.