Differences between English and Japanese MSQ Dialogue (bit of a rant)

To those who play in English with Japanese voice and can understand Japanese, has anyone else noticed the major differences between the English and Japanese dialogues in Shadowbringers? There has always been some differences but this time around, as I'm playing through the MSQ, it just feels very strange as what the Japanese voice is saying and the English dialogue is completely different.

While there are many instances of this throughout the MSQ, one is when the Exarch meets Vauthry; In the Japanese version, the Exarch says something along the lines of, you've gotten really big since I last saw you. Where as the English version is something like your as "enormous as ever". Differences like this are all over the MSQ this time, especially during CS of past events or when a character is explaining something deep, it feels like they are saying/implying two completely different things.

This doesn't really matter unless you are someone who plays the English Version with Japanese voice and can understand Japanese but just think for a game where the story is so deep and hints in dialogues play a important role in foreshadowing, they should make the dialogues more similar.

End of Rant.

It cannot be any worse than dual-audio releases of anime on Blu-Ray.

They only need to get so much of the point across in order for the plot to still make sense. As long as they don't go into "butcher territory" *cough* 4Kids Entertainment *cough* then we're good.

Be very, very alarmed if you ever see a rice ball replaced with a jelly doughnut.

Some things cannot be directly translated, and in some other cases the translation will be tailored to their intended audience. A Japanese (native) speaker playing the game with English voices would be very surprised by the use of the language, mostly because it's something they may not be used to hearing (i.e Shakespearean type words), and there may not be a direct equivalent in their own tongue. It does specifically state in the settings that having audio different to your client may not always match so it's to be expected that is not entirely the same in all languages (because it's just not always possible to do that).

There are also issues with vocal timings. Things said in Japanese tend to be longer or shorter based on the phrase being said, and the dialogue needs to be able to fit within the same timeframe or talking animation windows. If you're interested, you should look up The Logistics of Voice Acting.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Some things cannot be directly translated, and in some other cases the translation will be tailored to their intended audience. A Japanese (native) speaker playing the game with English voices would be very surprised by the use of the language, mostly because it's something they may not be used to hearing (i.e Shakespearean type words), and there may not be a direct equivalent in their own tongue. It does specifically state in the settings that having audio different to your client may not always match so it's to be expected that is not entirely the same in all languages (because it's just not always possible to do that).

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I pity a non-English speaker listening to Urianger say just about anything. Good f'ing luck.

Yeah, I think we've had more of these... cant even say mistranslations? They seem intentional. Anyways, after I noticed it, I made it a point to listen to the audio first, then read the english text just so I dont miss any small details relevant to the lore. I don't think there was anything major, but I do recall some peculiar wording differences that muddies the waters for some lore speculations.

One that did stick in my mind particularly was a Feo Ul conversation after Il Mehg, before the last area (being vague for spoilers). While mostly inconsiquantual it changed the intent behind her words a lot.

You're ranting over words that are said differently but mean the same thing, in a way, that several people can understand.
They mean the same thing but are just said differently. The outcome is still the same and it's said with understanding and spoken in a way
that would have been said. You hear two phrases, one in Japanese, one in English, those two will be said differently
but mean exactly the same thing. "You've gotten bigger, since the last I saw you!" still means the same as "You've blown up since I saw you last!" stuff like that.

Localization is more than just directly translating things word for word. You need to take into consideration culture, dialects, history and more. As someone else also mentioned there is only so much animation done, it has to fit within those animated frames so sometimes it gets abbreviated or changed so people aren't talking when nobody's mouth is moving.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Localization is more than just directly translating things word for word. You need to take into consideration culture, dialects, history and more.

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This.

A lot of cultural features of the Japanese language just do not make sense in English. It would be a grave error to translate things literally.

Those still mean the same thing essentially though? One just has more of a flourish that an English speaker would add as opposed to a direct translation of the Japanese, which is often /very/ stilted when translated into English directly. When one translate any medium they have to consider a few things and the biggest of those issues is how the text will translate into the second language. If it sounds fine in Japanese but doesn't flow at all in English, the lines need to be altered to sound better for the English audience the dub is being made for. Small alterations that keep the spirit of the text are common place in dub work, and FF14 has been pretty good about that with a few notable exceptions. (Seriously I contend people to go track down early 90's anime subs and try to sit through their attempts at literal translation... It could get bad... Really bad...)

It isn't like with what happened with Haurchefant where a good chunk of his character was changed between the Japanese and English audio tracks - and frankly for the better in my opinion as the trope that was being played in Japanese did /NOT/ come off well in English. To my knowledge that was the only /major/ change between the different dub tracks though I do remember a few others that frankly escape me at the moment, none that stand out in ShB however.

Yes, I play with Japanese audio and understand Japanese. I certainly wouldn't describe your example as a "major difference", nor can i really think of any.

Rephrasing is not a major difference.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

This.

A lot of cultural features of the Japanese language just do not make sense in English. It would be a grave error to translate things literally.

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Its the main reason I can't get into anime unless its been subbed/dubbed properly. I simply don't get the little cultural quirks and humor that is in japanese culture.

Hell I'm having problems with newer shows due to a generational gap. Such when a protagonist does something that seems perfectly logical and helps everyone, but then the side characters get upset because they weren't asked before. Even though it helped them.

So this is the third thread in like two or so days about differences between languages, specifically for Japanese and English.

Something to remember is that both versions are essentially being worked on at the same time, with a slight preference towards the Japanese version. I'm not sure where the French and German ones stand on their importance, if they are also equal or if they are more "hard" on their translations compared to English's localization.

Basically though you will be getting the same amount of forshadowing and plot, even if one version sometimes can seem a bit more vague. Usually the English one to my understanding but its almost always figured out before people can even chime in on how more direct the Japanese version is.

I'm not a native English speaker and the amount of ancient English language used in this game confused me a bit.

I can't really remember any serious differences (except Haurchefant 's literal reworking in English version), but still it makes me "???" almost every time. I know that translating is not always literal and that's okay, but sometimes it completely changes the atmosphere of the scene (off-top kind of, but I remember how different was 2B in Nier:Automata in EN and JP version... she says same things by meaning, but the way how I perceived her personality was completely different). I can't say if it's good or bad, it is just what it is.

However, when there are some differences, I always wonder where is the original? Because didn't Koji Fox said somewhere in the past that some scenes originally written in English and then translated to Japanese?

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Originally Posted by DumdogsWorld

Be very, very alarmed if you ever see a rice ball replaced with a jelly doughnut.

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Like it or not but something like that is perfectly normal and common in a localization, even though Onigiri may have become more well-known in western countries. You replace stuff and referencere your target audience is not familar with with something they are familar, unless the foreign concept IS a core element of the game (see Persona's decision to keep honorofics or Okami games). Many professional academic books about video game localization (including MMOs) will confirm this.

Yeah it annoys me. In the Japanese version heavenward Hauchfaunt pretty much invite the WOL back to bed but in the English version they tone him right down >.>

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

I'm not a native English speaker and the amount of ancient English language used in this game confused me a bit.

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So true... and if talking to dragons was okay, every time Urianger opens his mouth I want to kill him. Not sure that he uses ancient English tho but his way of speaking makes me cry.

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Originally Posted by Kobalos

Yeah it annoys me. In the Japanese version heavenward Hauchfaunt pretty much invite the WOL back to bed but in the English version they tone him right down >.>

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That was for cultural reasons. The trope Haurchefant plays in Japanese is kind of the lovable pervert and is a pretty common trope in a lot of Japanese stories. It's normal and not seen as a bad thing there. In English however when translated those same bits of dialogue cross a /lot/ of uncomfortable lines that would have likely soured a lot of people against the character. Because we're meant to empathize and mourn for him, SE made the correct choice to tone him down in the English localization. He's still very much into the WoL but he isn't charging straight into sexual harassment territory. This is why a lot of people are referencing culture when they talk about localization. It does, sadly, matter when one wants to get a certain intent across. I do think they made his feelings a touch too ambiguous in the English text, but I'll take English Haurchefant over Japanese Haurchefant any day of the week.

On ShB instead of Master Matoya in japanese we have Big Sis or Big sister Matoya which imo is far better since it shows respect AND how liked she is between the community.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

On ShB instead of Master Matoya in japanese we have Big Sis or Big sister Matoya which imo is far better since it shows respect AND how liked she is between the community.

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Sadly that's another thing that just doesn't translate well to English. Big Sister Matoya is really, REALLY awkward in English and not something most native English speakers would say to someone in that position. At least not if they were older than five years old. There's really no natural equivalent in English for it that doesn't come off as forced.

Mind 'Master' isn't a good equivalent either as while it denotes respect it's also cold. I'm not quite sure how they could have translated that better honestly, except maybe 'Miss Matoya'.

Exactly, "Master" denotes respect, but often also detachment, which is certainly not the case here (Also remember that she should be near or over 30 already)

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Exactly, "Master" denotes respect, but often also detachment, which is certainly not the case here (Also remember that she should be near or over 30 already)

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She's Forever 23.

There is one thing that stood out in all the stories I've ever played in FFXIV as jarring. I can't even remember exactly which encounter it was.. but I remember the English text for an enemy I had just defeated was bravado and cursing, while I could hear the japanese voice lines screaming for help and forgiveness. It was a little weird, but understandable since usually badguys in english media have to be hateable not pitiable. I grew up with a mix of japanese and english media since where I live is an amalgamation of cultures, so I like being able to experience both to a certain degree and appreciating both stories in their own context is fun.

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Originally Posted by DumdogsWorld

It cannot be any worse than dual-audio releases of anime on Blu-Ray.

They only need to get so much of the point across in order for the plot to still make sense. As long as they don't go into "butcher territory" *cough* 4Kids Entertainment *cough* then we're good.

Be very, very alarmed if you ever see a rice ball replaced with a jelly doughnut.

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Hey, Brock might have been special, but at least he was smart enough to turn a frying pan into a drying pan! The real problem comes up when the bad guys run up and threaten you by pointing their fingers at you menacingly

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Originally Posted by Enla

Sadly that's another thing that just doesn't translate well to English. Big Sister Matoya is really, REALLY awkward in English and not something most native English speakers would say to someone in that position. At least not if they were older than five years old. There's really no natural equivalent in English for it that doesn't come off as forced.

Mind 'Master' isn't a good equivalent either as while it denotes respect it's also cold. I'm not quite sure how they could have translated that better honestly, except maybe 'Miss Matoya'.

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Pretty much. In such cases, cultural notes are bound to get lost in translation. Especically in JP where there's not always a fitting equivalent correspoding to every finer nuance, like using onee-sama/nee-san or whatever after the name. I know it, for example, from countless of Visual Novels where the female role model student is called "Nee-sama" or her name + nee-sama. Where I am from, this kind of adressing someone simply doesn't exist. If we know someone by first name, we call them so, unless requested otherwise. In a professional environment or at school / university, it depends on the teachers / professors if they offer their first name to be used etc... Important persons excluded

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

So this is the third thread in like two or so days about differences between languages, specifically for Japanese and English.

Something to remember is that both versions are essentially being worked on at the same time, with a slight preference towards the Japanese version. I'm not sure where the French and German ones stand on their importance, if they are also equal or if they are more "hard" on their translations compared to English's localization.

Basically though you will be getting the same amount of forshadowing and plot, even if one version sometimes can seem a bit more vague. Usually the English one to my understanding but its almost always figured out before people can even chime in on how more direct the Japanese version is.

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At least the german translation is pretty on spot with the japanese version. I didnt really get any bigger differences, not more then the normal stuff you need to get the length of the sentences and stuff in line with the animations.

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Originally Posted by Mahoukenshi

Like it or not but something like that is perfectly normal and common in a localization, even though Onigiri may have become more well-known in western countries. You replace stuff and referencere your target audience is not familar with with something they are familar, unless the foreign concept IS a core element of the game (see Persona's decision to keep honorofics or Okami games). Many professional academic books about video game localization (including MMOs) will confirm this.

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Being common doesn't make it any less stupid. This isn't some obscure, foreign figure of speech we're talking about here. We're talking about food. There is absolutely no good or sane reason to edit footage frame by frame to replace food. It's obnoxious, doesn't make the work of fiction any more relatable, and is a flat-out insult to the untranslated material.

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Originally Posted by DumdogsWorld

Being common doesn't make it any less stupid. This isn't some obscure, foreign figure of speech we're talking about here. We're talking about food. There is absolutely no good or sane reason to edit footage frame by frame to replace food. It's obnoxious, doesn't make the work of fiction any more relatable, and is a flat-out insult to the untranslated material.

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Welcome to real life, where a translator's job isn't all fluff like with fanmade translations (no matter if the fantranslation is excellent or subpar). Some decisions are within the freedom of choice a translator may or may not have, but you not liking it, doesn't make it as the only opinion that (should) matter.

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Originally Posted by Mahoukenshi

Welcome to real life.

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Real life = voting with your wallet.

4Kids Entertainment, any several other companies who do equally hideous translations, went out of business.

Funimation, as much as I hate to admit it, is much more faithful to the untranslated material. They're doing really good in terms of business. Various other dubbing companies follow.

And this isn't specific to the anime industry. I can't tell you how many people I know modded their Nintendo 3DSs to run bootleg games, just so they can play fan translations for games they already purchased. Why? Because the localization is stupid, and they know it.

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Originally Posted by DumdogsWorld

Being common doesn't make it any less stupid. This isn't some obscure, foreign figure of speech we're talking about here. We're talking about food. There is absolutely no good or sane reason to edit footage frame by frame to replace food. It's obnoxious, doesn't make the work of fiction any more relatable, and is a flat-out insult to the untranslated material.

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There's an example of this reversed in the pixar movie "Inside Out". In the US it's common for kids to dislike broccoli, in japan it's much more common for kids to not like bell peppers. In the US version baby Riley is being fed broccoli which Disgust rejects, in japan it was changed to bell peppers to be more relatable to the audience.

You might consider it stupid, but the idea is to be the most relatable to the largest audience. Most english speaking countries large user bases aren't intimitely familiar with Rice balls as a staple but will instantly recognize and have experience with a doughnut.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

There's an example of this reversed in the pixar movie "Inside Out". In the US it's common for kids to dislike broccoli, in japan it's much more common for kids to not like bell peppers. In the US version baby Riley is being fed broccoli which Disgust rejects, in japan it was changed to bell peppers to be more relatable to the audience.

You might consider it stupid, but the idea is to be the most relatable to the largest audience. Most english speaking countries large user bases aren't intimitely familiar with Rice balls as a staple but will instantly recognize and have experience with a doughnut.

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So...we have to alter stories to be more relatable, now? Just because you don't know about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Where do we draw the line? Should we remove fictional food from fantasy franchises because people might not know what they are?

Just...don't mess with the story. It's the logical thing to do.

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Originally Posted by DumdogsWorld

So...we have to alter stories to be more relatable, now? Just because you don't know about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Where do we draw the line? Should we remove fictional food from fantasy franchises because people might not know what they are?

Just...don't mess with the story. It's the logical thing to do.

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... Yes? There's being faithful to the source material and then there's making it relatable (or palatable) to the target audience. For instance Dragonball. English versions refer to dying as "Going to another dimension", mainly because we coddle our kids (the target audience) and more parents would be unlikely to let their kids watch a show if it forced them to explain death. By changing the translation and the meaning the cartoon appeals to a broader audience, gets more popular, makes more money and is therefore more successful.

You can still watch the originals with subtitles if you want the "real" experience, but calling the changes stupid just ignores that a big reason these are being "officially" localized to profit from their re-release.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Snip

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Broader audiences aren't always a good thing. I'm sure porn companies would make a lot more money making their stuff friendlier for kids. Or not.

Dragon Ball Z isn't a show for kids. That's something the dubbing companies did. Just...arrrggghh...

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Originally Posted by DumdogsWorld

Broader audiences aren't always a good thing. I'm sure porn companies would make a lot more money making their stuff friendlier for kids. Or not.

Dragon Ball Z isn't a show for kids. That's something the dubbing companies did. Just...arrrggghh...

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Dragon Ball (all of them) is absolutely a show for kids. It always has been in japan. The problem is the western world considers a lot of the topics it covers to be taboo for children, so we get censoring and edits.

... you.. really gonna go with the porn comparison.. for kids cartoons reaching wider audiences?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

... you.. really gonna go with the porn comparison.. for kids cartoons reaching wider audiences?

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"When in a debate, attack the premise, not the arguments."

Dragon Ball is not a cartoon for kids, hence why I made the comparison. This has nothing to do with taboos. Japanese 'cartoons' very much resemble western cartoons - they are much more juvenile. It may have been intended for teens, but teens are not kids.

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Originally Posted by DumdogsWorld

"When in a debate, attack the premise, not the arguments."

Dragon Ball is not a cartoon for kids, hence why I made the comparison. This has nothing to do with taboos. Japanese 'cartoons' very much resemble western cartoons - they are much more juvenile. It may have been intended for teens, but teens are not kids.

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Your argument is "well if we could make the audience for PORN bigger it'd make more money." well... yeah, but.. morals? How does this compare equally to swapping out a jelly doughnut for a rice ball like the original comparison? This isn't questionable morality, it's localization.

Ask a Japanese person if dragonball is a kids cartoon. In my experience most of them consider it pre-teenage to teenager content. Kids. Maybe my definition of kids is too broad, but I remember watching DBZ when I was 10-ish along with all my elementary school friends. It's not like it was an entirely different thing than dragonball either, Goku is just bigger.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

This isn't questionable morality, it's localization.

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You don't consider changing a story morally bad? What if the audience wants to see it as it appears originally? Why do these dubbing companies feel like it's up to them to decide that?

Yes, as you've pointed out, I'm not a businessman. But when I see something different than the writers/author/etc originally intended, I get really annoyed. If I don't know what a rice ball is, I'll look it up. I don't need to be treated like an idiot.

If you can't understand that...well...oh well...

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Your argument is "well if we could make the audience for PORN bigger it'd make more money." well... yeah, but.. morals? How does this compare equally to swapping out a jelly doughnut for a rice ball like the original comparison? This isn't questionable morality, it's localization.

Ask a Japanese person if dragonball is a kids cartoon. In my experience most of them consider it pre-teenage to teenager content. Kids. Maybe my definition of kids is too broad, but I remember watching DBZ when I was 10-ish along with all my elementary school friends. It's not like it was an entirely different thing than dragonball either, Goku is just bigger.

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Well..... There IS a big difference between Dragonball and Dragonball Z if i am allowed to interfere here :) While the original Dragonball was all about fun and being intentended as "Gag-Anime", Dragonball Z took a sudden change to way more sirious topics. Suddenly there where hole citys or even the planet distroyed and a lot of people die.

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Originally Posted by DumdogsWorld

You don't consider changing a story morally bad? What if the audience wants to see it as it appears originally? Why do these dubbing companies feel like it's up to them to decide that?

Yes, as you've pointed out, I'm not a businessman. But when I see something different than the writers/author/etc originally intended, I get really annoyed. If I don't know what a rice ball is, I'll look it up. I don't need to be treated like an idiot.

If you can't understand that...well...oh well...

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So you are figuring you know that the authors HAD to have that be a riceball and they weren't just using it because it was their cultural norm and if it can interchangeably be used with something else and convey the same meaning or implication it still should be kept as something that might confuse a foreign audience because "dangit people should have to research to enjoy cartoons"?

Changing a story to make it more relatable exposes more people to the story in the first place. Once interested people can (and will) go search out the "original" version, something they wouldn't even have engaged in if they experienced something confusing or unfamiliar.

I don't consider the moral weight of changing a cartoon to cater to local audiences on the same level as having porn cater to underage people. no.

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Originally Posted by Exitos

Well..... There IS a big difference between Dragonball and Dragonball Z if i am allowed to interfere here :) While the original Dragonball was all about fun and being intentended as "Gag-Anime", Dragonball Z took a sudden change to way more sirious topics. Suddenly there where hole citys or even the planet distroyed and a lot of people die.

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People still died in DB. They even explored the fact that Goku killed his own adoptive parent. They showed Goku ripping through and killing people, people having limbs broken and suffering greatly on screen. They had nudity and perversion allusions. While the newer threats did increase the possible damage it was more because of the insane power creep necessary to keep them a relevant threat than it being more "grown up". I would argue that content wise Z is no "worse" than the original.