I came back to the forums cause I was looking to see if anyone else had been noticing some of the same things about the Shadowbringers dungeons I was, in order to see if there was something I was missing, or if my observations had been right. What I saw I was not really expecting.
What I saw was a nice bit of doom and gloom about how such and such job or role was ruined, or that the only bit that mattered was endgame content and raids. Or things are being made too simple. And Shadowbringers has not even left early access.
I fully understand that some might not fully be in swing with all the new changes, as I know I would like a few Sch abilities back. But I really think people might benefit from taking a step back, and looking at things from a few different angles as well.
And I think the stuff I was running into when doing Dohn Mheg a few times kinda highlights a lot of why taking the step back would be a good thing. As when a tank mentioned would take it easy on the pulls after wiped twice on the first pull of a dungeon, when it was his first time completing it too.
But after seeing some of the stuff on the forums, I felt it might be better to remind people to take a step back, and re-adjust for the expansion instead of trying to stuff Shadowbringers into the same gameplay that worked for Stormblood or any other expansion. As I am seeing much of a similar attitude on the forums as the "It worked for Stormblood, why should I adjust for Shadowbringers" vibe I picked up from that tank.
They adjusted abilities for all jobs in regards to combat, so it might also be a good idea to consider that they also adjusted the parameters of what is needed for each encounter as well. Both of which will take a bit of time to get adjusted to.
There are going to be a bunch of newer players, and returning ones that might be a bit rusty, which would both not be up to snuff to just treat every dungeon as being on farm from Day 0. Those who have been farming endgame content will also have to adjust to these players, just as much as the new and returning players will have to adjust to those that never left.
Those complaining things are being adjusted to things being too simple for tanks/healers, might want to also try considering things from the new player perspective. Consider how daunting it becomes for a new player that wants to try playing a tank or healer, once they find out the expectations is being able to grab 2-4 encounters at a time in most dungeons, and not being able to due so thanks to being new.
So I just wanted to remind people it can be very beneficial to take a step back, consider things from other perspectives, and be willing to adjust. As Shadowbringers could very easily have a much different balancing point than the prior expansions, and couple that with all the other ability changes that came with it.
Take a step back, and adjust.
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07-02-2019, 09:51 AMHawklaserTake a step back, and adjust.
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07-02-2019, 10:09 AMMomomiMomi
Except nothing's changed other than the classes people are complaining about have become more boring. Encounters are the same they've always been.
And no, the game should not be balanced around the lowest common denominator, because the lowest players are abysmal. They should be expected to eventually reach higher levels, not the other way around. -
07-02-2019, 10:09 AMFFgame
You don't sub my pay. How about you step up instead of asking others to adjust. You can practice with npcs since for some unknown reason they wasted dev time on TRUST system instead of dungeons extreme mode. Someone better be using it.
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07-02-2019, 10:53 AMHawklaserPost's like yours are why I felt compelled to remind people it can be beneficial to take a step back, and adjust. As you seem to think the game revolves around end game content only, and don't really want to consider any other viewpoint.Quote:
Originally Posted by FFgame
As I wasn't coming back to the forums to complain about why I was having problems in dungeons when tanks felt the need to pull multiple mob groups, but to try and find ways I could improve my play to make those pulls go smoother if at all possible. Or as you so eloquently put it "Step up".
On the Trust system they implemented, did you ever consider the fact that the reason it might have been added has nothing to do with new players at all? But that it could have been intended as way to help keep DPS story dungeon queue times reasonable so those players can enjoy the expansion at their own pace instead of hitting 15+ minute walls of waiting due to either their odd playtimes or that many tanks and healers are focused on their MSQ progression and are farther ahead thanks to their normally much shorter queues.
On the flip side to them not balancing the game around the lowest common denominator, the game should also not be balanced around just the hardcore raiders either. The balance point should ideally be somewhere in the middle for most of the content. And from one expansion to the next, what is used as the perceived balancing point for the Developers is going to move around a bit. I made no comment about balancing around any one group, but was suggesting that it might pay to step back and not assume that the devs used the same balancing metrics for Shadowbringers as they did for Stormblood.Quote:
Originally Posted by MomomiMomi
I am already getting vibes that they did use different metrics, as going through all of Stormblood, I didn't have many issues at all with tanks doing large pulls, but yet in Shadowbringers I dread them currently. In part due to still adjusting to the Sch changes, and in part due to the tanks HP seeming to swing much faster in the larger pulls than it did before. Maybe its my play, maybe its the tanks play, maybe its the DPS's play. Or it could also be the Devs made changes to discourage large pulls or tweaked them in such a way that they are much harder to succeed at if all party members are not pulling their weight. As some groups I have been in, those pulls are possible, others its not, but every single time they do happen, it takes about all I got to keep the tank up as long as possible in order for the dps to get enough mobs killed for the pull to work. -
07-02-2019, 10:57 AMVanitas
Game's too hard folks. Remove all mechanics and make all rotations one button.
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07-02-2019, 11:04 AMBaka_Neko1did you just call ex trials endgame content? LolQuote:
Originally Posted by Hawklaser
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07-02-2019, 11:57 AMWilford111
The response from the hardcore elite players is disheartening, to say the least. I would have expected some understanding especially since OP's posts are put very eloquently and comprehensively. Seems only natural to reply respectfully as she was.
Also, I do consider ex trials end-game content, seeing as how the only other content that's harder is savage raids -
07-02-2019, 12:06 PMManeeshaMaking jobs simpler and people having anxiety of tanking/healing are completely different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawklaser
1. They are afraid to make a mistake and cause a wipe and hear people complain. At least when they hear that the norm is 2-4 packs, they know what to aim for. Also we play the game this way because of the encounter design and game mechanics designed by the dev team.
2. Making classes easier for newer players is a mistake,imo. You "might" get a few new players to play them, but they will play them because they like tanking/healing/dpsing, not because its now easier (sure there might be a few that will play them because they are easier). What about the existing players?While you might get a few new ones to play those classes, you lose existing ones, because they got bored or disliked the simplified version, so you gained nothing...
Really i am sick of hearing the devs always talking about making things easier for the "potential" new players who might not even want to play those classes and completely disregard the existing players. Is a higher learning curve really that bad? Do they think the new players will be dumber then the players they already have, so they have to simplify things for them? Don't the existing players deserve to expand on their knowledge,skill and be challenged with their class because the dev team added more to the already existing mechanics,instead of removing them...
Sorry about the rant..
Also don't worry, people will adjust or they will switch classes or play another game :P
Welcome to the forum/internet. Where everyone is a pro and farms "likes" with "cool" comments, like this one :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Wilford111
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07-02-2019, 12:11 PMVahlnirExtreme trials are endgame content...of a sort. I'd say it's catered more towards the midcore player base though, while Savage and Ultimate cater to the hardcore. Mechanically, they are somewhat complex, though not too complex. The weapon drops also have a pretty respectable item level, especially if one is keen on playing multiple jobs. With mounts and other cosmetics as well they have a little something for a lot of people to work for if they so choose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baka_Neko1
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07-02-2019, 12:27 PMNabianEx-Trials are more like a gap between story and endgame content...or maybe endgame for casual players?Quote:
Originally Posted by Baka_Neko1
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07-02-2019, 12:29 PMHawklaserIts a funny balancing act isn't it? You need things with the higher skill cap for the more experienced players that may be looking for a challenge, and others that have a higher skill floor so that the new players can acclimate and perform well enough to get through things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maneesha
On point 1, I found most groups willing to adjust to the parties capabilities. But every now and then, get the stubborn ones that try to fit a square peg through a round hole, and decide to blame the hole when that doesn't work.
On point 2, it really depends on why the class is getting simplified. Some were getting a bit bloated, like Drg in my opinion.(Haven't tried it in Shadowbringers yet, but by the end of Stormblood it just felt bloated and was getting clunky to me, while I really enjoyed it in the past) -
07-02-2019, 12:37 PMgumasthe thing is these kind of people only here for endgame content, they dont care about story or any drama. they just want the top 1% of the game and thats it. because of that they always sensitive with every little thing that change about their class, they need to min max it again, put in depth analysis, discuss the best formula/rotation and squeeze even a tiny fragment of second to get their dps to top.Quote:
What I saw was a nice bit of doom and gloom about how such and such job or role was ruined, or that the only bit that mattered was endgame content and raids. Or things are being made too simple.
and ironically... these kind of people have the biggest voice/presence in community talk/forum. thus with SHB change, their voice just getting louder and its not a good voice either.
meanwhile the casual one like us, who play to enjoy the game, the story, the fashion, who sit back and do emoticon thingy for no reason or just chat and have fun.... has no voice at all.
because we are too busy having fun in the game, not yelling in the forum lol -
07-02-2019, 12:39 PMMomomiMomiPretty sure you're counting me among those "elite players" yet I'm about as casual as you can get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilford111
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07-02-2019, 01:16 PMCortawraith
I love how many people complained and whined about all the changes, without havin even played any class to 80.
Overall I enjoy challenging gameplay and I consider the vast majority of the content being tooo easy, BUT I also welcome getting rid of useless stuff, that rarely anyone used etc. etc.
Of course not everyone has to like these changes and not everone does, still that's no reason to wish for a complete reverse for all changes.
I really hope the ranting minority won't be enough for Square to take steps back (some adjustments are fine, though). -
07-02-2019, 01:21 PMSelovaWhile the forums might seem loud, especially with combat changes to the jobs they are still in the extreme minority. They won't ever be satisfied no matter what changes are made.Quote:
Originally Posted by gumas
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07-02-2019, 01:25 PMZanarkand-RonsoPeople were complaining about changes before they even played the game lmao.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortawraith
Its a pretty Foreign concept to wait to get your hands on it, experience it yourself, Then give Critique.....Critique being the hardest one to get down. People just wanna yell and complain, then it sparks these dumb little arguments on both sides.
I do hope for SOME tweaks. Like I miss AeroIII and I miss having a Larger MP Pool with Piety. -
07-02-2019, 01:27 PMTsukinoThey are. "Endgame" doesn't mean "the most challenging" or "stuff only the best players can do," it's just shit you do at the end of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baka_Neko1
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07-02-2019, 01:40 PMgumas
^its matter of perspective, for casual ex-trial could be our endgame i guess.
but for us casual, our endgame is probably fashion =P -
07-02-2019, 01:44 PMManeeshaAs long as the changes affect content pre lvl 80, people don't have to be lvl 80 to have an opinion on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortawraith
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07-02-2019, 01:52 PMTalinthis
all i know is warrior really sucks and is super boring now with anything below 72. was my main class but i will never play it for anything lower than that now.
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07-02-2019, 01:54 PMRyuDragnierWait, you mean it wasn't originally?Quote:
Originally Posted by Talinthis
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07-02-2019, 01:56 PMForteNightshadeI'm going to be blunt. Content beyond EX Primals does not matter when it comes to balance. Even that has become a stretch nowadays given how easy many Extremes are. While you obviously want to avoid scenarios where say, WHM Holy spam is so much better than anything AST and SCH have no one ever wants to queue as the latter two for a dungeon. It doesn't matter if WHM remains the "best" because dungeons are, simply put, face roll. Balance should always focus on what the job's highest potential is; how far they can be pushed. Only afterwards should you focus on the easier content. Unfortunately, SE seems to do the opposite, which is why it took them four bloody years to finally realize not balancing BRD/MCH around piercing led to huge damage creep issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawklaser
You aren't going to get proper results balancing job design around dungeons. -
07-02-2019, 01:57 PMNinjaTaru72
I'll take a step back, but I can't adjust.. Cuz I'm not a healer (points for people who get this lol)
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07-02-2019, 02:12 PMHyoMinParkThe issue with balancing around the lowest types of content, or even the middle types of content, is that jobs can end up broken (on either end of the spectrum) when you get to the highest types of content. What good does it do to balance jobs so that they're gods in dungeons...but then you take them into a Savage raid or an Ultimate fight and they aren't living up to their god potential anymore?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawklaser
The developers have made many balancing mistakes in the past. They need to start seriously looking at how the higher end plays, and considering balance around party compositions (with all applicable buffs) in high-end content. They didn't do that for Heavensward or Stormblood, and look what happened:
- Heavensward: double physical ranged was meta in Creator and completely destroyed the casters because SE never considered how valuable piercing was to them. Of course, it also didn't help that they'd buffed BRD and MCH to the moon and back, but still. Let's go to Stormblood.
- Stormblood: same thing happened here. DRG/BRD/MCH was still meta in Deltascape because of piercing. Casters only started pulling ahead after they broke SMN in 4.1 and finally allowed BLM to do decent personal damage in Alphascape. There were also issues with BRD dealing far more damage than jobs like RDM, NIN, and DRG because the developers did not account for how much impact piercing and +critical hit buffs would have on the job. Especially as the gear tiers progressed and BRDs could stack nearly 3,000 critical hit by the end of the expansion.
Now we have Shadowbringers:
- Healers: the developers still do not seem to realize just how healers are played at the high end, and that has become a bit more obvious in some of the 5.0 healer changes (see: SCH and the Aetherflow stack issues they're currently having). AST also has to deal with Play, which currently does not allow for queuing as an oGCD, so we end up clipping our next GCD cast to get it to work. This was something they went to lengths to fix in 4.3 with the recast change to Malefic, but now it's back (and honestly quite annoying).
They've since rectified some of the issues I have mentioned from HW and SB for Shadowbringers - at least at first glance. Piercing is gone, and utility overall has been nerfed foe most of the jobs that were meta for an entire expansion (and the latter half of HW). However, this does not mean that they should not look at the higher end and consider balance there. Because, at the end of the day, balancing around dungeons is not necessary. The content is not pushing the jobs to their absolute limits or their highest potential, and you always need to consider what jobs can do at the highest. Not the lowest or the middle ground.
As for the thread topic of stepping back and considering the changes: some of the jobs have lost the identities they've had for years now. BRD is one such job. It was and has always been a support job in this game...until Shadowbringers. Its support now has been reduced to Nature's Minne and Troubadour, with its only buff being Battle Voice. No more resource management like Refresh to aid a party, which has turned off a lot of players from the job. 4.0 BRD was absolutely the perfect balance of damage dealer and support job...and that's gone now. As someone who has played BRD since I started this game up until now, it left a bad taste in my mouth to remove the aspects that I loved most about the job: the support. If I wanted to play a job that just dealt damage and didn't have support tools, I would have. But that was never why I played BRD. I liked supporting my party.