I am getting used to DNC after reaching level 70, but I am wondering how exactly our rotation will work at the end. One of my main concerns is about whether we dance or not. Let me explain.
Standard Step: This is a 30s cooldown skill which gives a 60s damage buff. It requires a total of four global cooldowns to be executed (1 to start the dance, 2 steps, and one to finish it). It has potency of 1,000 when done correctly.
Technical Step: This is a 120s cooldown skill which gives a 60s damage buff (to everyone). It requires six global cooldowns to be executed (two additional steps). It has a potency of 1,500 when done correctly.
Now, I am pretty sure we will want to use Technical Step every time it pops up because of its 5% party-wide damage buff. I mean, it is worth wasting those 6 cooldowns and dealing only 1,500 potency for that trouble.
Standard Step, however, I am not sure. The buff is 60s long, which means we can use it after Technical Step's buff expire. However, it will be ready for use again when the buff still has 30s remaining. It deals 1,000 potency damage for its execution and it is an AoE.
What do you guys think? Any theorycrafter wrote some numbers to see which is better?
I round up some numbers, but because the DNC rotation is based a whole lot on 50% chances, the numbers are not exact, but so far I am pretty sure we can deal up to 1,200 potency damage in 4 global cooldowns, which is the same amount of time required for Standard Step. It seems it is better NOT to dance (Standard Step) when facing a single enemy, but DO dance (Standard Step) when facing mobs.
Dance or not to Dance?
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07-01-2019, 11:18 PMIrohmaDance or not to Dance?
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07-01-2019, 11:29 PMRowanLauron
That's the thing about DNC. It's a support job, it's not supposed to be able to match the other dps with its personal dps. They sacrifice their personal dps to give a boost to others. It'll wash out in the end.
Think about it, yeah you may only get 1500 potency, but that 5% spreads to the whole party and will add up, especially if your dps is good. If you have a dnc and nin in the party, you can line up TA with Technical Step for a really strong burst phase. It'll more than make up for any of dnc personal dps. -
07-01-2019, 11:30 PMYanderePrincess
The steps don't take a full GCD. I think 2 steps = ~1 GCD, though this could change with skill speed which I don't think affects the steps.
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07-01-2019, 11:37 PMIrohmaYeah, you are right, it is 1s cooldown and is classified as an ability, so maybe it isn't even affected by skill speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by YanderePrincess
Hm... that would mean it will always be better to use Standard Step when it is ready and not only when the buff is fading? Because instead of 4 GDC it would be around 2GDC... and 1,000 potency is a lot more than our flourishing rotation with random chances for Fans for the same time. -
07-01-2019, 11:48 PMYanderePrincess
Yeah, that seems to be the situation currently. Skill speed stacking could make it less worthwhile to use SS every time it's ready rather than just for refreshing the buff, but I have a feeling we'll be going more for crit and dhit than SS because of our steps and oGCDs. Hard to say atm, though.
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07-01-2019, 11:58 PMHezzlocks
My take is that without high skill speed, Standard Step will be worth using on cooldown. If the dance steps were a full GCD's worth, then you'd only use it to refresh, to be sure, but since the dance steps are 1s each as opposed to ~2.4s, you're able to fit a Standard Step in slightly under 3 GCDs, provided you're hitting the buttons optimally.
It's worth noting that any currently active flourishes are *irrelevant* in the calculation, unless they are about to expire, as the duration of the flourish buffs are substantially longer than how long it takes to perform even *both* Standard and Technical steps, let alone just Standard, so you can pop a Standard Step very easily then continue along with your flourishing rotations. As such, the only thing that matters is what the average potency per GCD a Standard Step is.
As far as I can see, both initiating and executing the Step invokes a full GCD, while the steps themselves are 1s each. So, we're looking at slightly less than 3 GCDs for a Standard Step rotation. For simplicities sake, and just because I don't really care to go too in depth into the calculations or anything (I'll leave that for people smarter than I), we can just say a flat 3 GCD for that 1000 potency, which makes it, on average, about 333 potency per GCD.
Given that that is higher than Cascade's 200 potency, Flourishing Fountain's 250 potency, and Flourishing Cascade's 300 potency, only being beaten by Fountainfall's 350 potency... I would say that's well worth casting on cooldown. You don't even need to factor Fans into the equation as they *ONLY* matter if you're about to use Fountainfall or Reverse Cascade (or the AoE equivalents) while capped on feathers, which you should avoid doing anyway, but since Fans are instant oGCD, you can just weave them between your attacks anyway.
Technical Step is different, though. Due to the fact that it buffs the entire party, whatever its average potency is (which i don't care to calculate right now) its execution is entirely dependant on the fight and the party makeup. Ideally you want it to line up with other buffs as best as possible, in particular Trick Attack for that double dipping. You also certainly don't want to use it if the boss is about to jump away or otherwise go invulnerable. In the event that neither of those factors are relevant, though... *absolutely do* use it on cooldown. 5% extra damage for your entire party is a substantial boost that should not be taken lightly. -
07-02-2019, 12:12 AMLiquid_Amnesia
I usually dance on cooldown. Like it's been stated above, the flourish buffs last long enough that you can throw in a step and go right back into your rotation.
My question for the other DNC players is about BEDEVILMENT! Should we be using it before or after Technical Step? I feel like it'd be nice to have the boost to Technical Step's 1500 potency, but seeing as your burst window lines up right afterward, maybe it's better saved until after the buff takes effect for & your partner... I realize I probably just answered my own question. Haha. -
07-02-2019, 12:37 AMRaikaiThe only reason I can think of using before is if there's a priority target to be taken care of and you want to fish the big crit with technical step damageQuote:
Originally Posted by Liquid_Amnesia
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07-02-2019, 01:00 AMHezzlocksQuote:
Originally Posted by Liquid_Amnesia
Gotta admit, that's a good question. There's no doubt that scoring a Crit + Direct Hit on the Technical Step is *huge*. I would dare say it's worth a lot more than you'd get on average from your following damage rotation, which may very well make it worthwhile doing, especially when you need burst damage.
That said, there's two things complicating that answer. One being that Technical Dance takes about 8-ish seconds to pull off, which is a substantially large amount of time to be doing absolutely nothing with your Bedevilment with, and the other being that your dance partner *also* gets Bedevilment, which means you also need to take *his* damage into consideration on whether or not taking a chance at the massive Technical burst is worth it or not. Oh, and of course, there's also the entire hit-or-miss aspect of using Bedevilment for your Technical Step burst. You might get the full crit/direct, you might only get one or the other, or you might whiff completely. Big gamble, there. If it whiffs, man, thats a feels bad.
Without doing any math at all, because man who got time for that with all these variables, I'm going to take a guess that it's better to use Bedevilment *after* the Technical Step. -
07-02-2019, 02:26 AMJohnSeal
Often I realise people don’t even read their skills :( each step is 1 sec, that mean 2gcd + 2 secs for standard steps: 2:45 sec multiply 2 + 2 sec for steps so it’s less than 3 gcds. You certainly want to use Standard steps as often as possible! Cascade + Fountain + RC/FF is 750/800 pot vs 1k of Standard steps :)
Technical steps is 2 gccs to dance + 4 sec for steps it’s less than 4 gcd in total for 1.5k pot.
Opener wise at lvl 80 my guess ( and it’s just a guess) you will use Standard step 15 sec prepull (just for the buff) then Techincal steps around 10 sec prepull and land your 1.5k skill on sec 0 to spread your 20sec buff to the team. On the 5 gcd you will see probably TA go up and BOOM:FLOURISH!! Then Standard steps again at sec 20ish into the fight ^^
Hope that help -
07-02-2019, 02:31 AMJohnSeal
Also you will use Devilment right before Flourish so you fit all your burst phase in it including Saberdance and a Standard step too hoping they both crit
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07-02-2019, 02:54 AMYanderePrincess
Use Flourish before Technical Step, then weave Devilment in at the end of Technical Step. Flourish lasts long enough that you won't drop any of them.
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07-02-2019, 05:42 AMWaterShieldQuote:
Originally Posted by JohnSeal
Nope. Use flourish first and begin Standard Step around 5 seconds till pull. Hit Standard step next to boss (for 1000 potency) as your first attack of the pull. Rotate through the procs from flourish and use Cascade into Fountain (and procs) combo, saving any feathers generated so long as you don't cap and have a feather generating proc up. Begin technical step when standard step has approximately 8 seconds remaining before it comes off of cooldown. Use Standard step immediately after technical step(+10% damage to a 1000 potency nuke) and weave devilment as you hit with it. Begin to unload with OGCD weaving and your normal rotation. Saber dance becomes highest priority GCD during this time until standard step comes back up.
This is the selfish personal DPS opener. A case can be made for using Technical Step early with Ninja's Trick attack for greater benefit to the rest of the party's DPS.
Edit: I was jumping to conclusions based on the 20s you mention for standard step. So long as you fit it in the window of technical steps damage up, then yes you are right.
Dancer is designed to bank damage to unleash during a burst Window. Technical step and Devilment are both on a 2 minute cool down. So they should be aligned in that way for the greatest DPS you can contribute.
Standard step should be used on Cooldown at all times. -
07-02-2019, 06:52 AMHyoMinPark
You should be using Standard Step on cooldown. Clipping a buff that will have 100% uptime anyways is not that huge of a deal. Losing 1,000 potency every minute from only using ST every 60 seconds is a big deal. Based on all the conversations I've been seeing amongst the DNC number crunchers, holding it is a larger loss than using it on CD and missing the GCDs you could have had during it. Its potency is scaled enough to make up for the time taken to prep it.
Think about it: you lose 1,000 potency every time you don't use it. Over the course of a fight, that will begin to add up very quickly. Aside from Quadruple Technical Finish, Double Standard Finish is our hardest hitting skill. There's no reason not to use ST on cooldown outside of a few niche scenarios (e.g., dungeon boss/trash pack is about to die and you'll want it up for the next pack, intermission /add phase is coming up and you'll want it for that).
The dances are 1 second a piece—with Standard Step being a GCD, at most you will lose 3~4 seconds during prepping it, which is not even 2 GCDs. Most of our weaponskills are not scaled high enough to add up to more than 1,000; meaning that you are losing potency by not putting Standard Step back on CD the minute it pops up. -
07-02-2019, 08:52 AMJohnSeal
WaterSchield I sincerely doubt, it’s not reasonable to use flourish 5 second prepull. Simply because you wouldn’t want to use your proc from flourish at the begin of the fight it’s a gigantic wastage, in the first 4/5 gdc won’t be any buff active and as with all classes you want to wait for raid buff like BL,BV,CS,TA etc etc. It’s better to fit flourish procs into those buffs and if your start the fight with Technical steps 20 sec is enough all inside
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07-02-2019, 09:47 AMHyoMinPark
The pre-release opener had Flourish after the pull:
Standard Step (roughly at -10s) > Standard Finish (on pull) > weave Flourish afterwards. It may be subject to change now, but that’s what the pre-release openers looked like (for early and late TA applications). I believe the individual in the Balance who has been doing a lot of DNC number crunching said that they will post an updated opener soon. -
07-02-2019, 09:52 AMWaterShieldAll I know is, I've been using the opener I provided and things melt. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
Edit: This seems to be ok for dungeons (Because who uses countdowns?) Definitely not best in a Trial or Raid scenario. -
07-02-2019, 09:53 AMHyoMinParkWell, in terms of dungeons, of course they will. DNC is a monster in dungeons. I’m speaking more so in terms of optimal, single-target openers. All I know is that the DNCs in the Balance haven’t been saying anything about Flourishing prepull—just prepping your Standard Step to pull with a 1,000 potency attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterShield
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07-02-2019, 10:01 AMWaterShieldAlso, I'm not saying to use the procs first either. They'd be used after standard finisher. Only popping pre pull because the procs last forever so they won't fall off and to have flourish up again sooner in the fight. I see it as a good tool for stockpiling feathers in between burst windows.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
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07-02-2019, 10:17 AMHyoMinParkPopping Flourish pre-pull is impossible while you are prepping Standard Finish, as you cannot use Flourish during your dances. The current working opener that was posted today is as follows:Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterShield
Pre-pull:
-15s Standard Step
-2s potion/infusion
On pull Standard Finish (Flourish OR Devilment) > Technical Step (Step > Step > Step > Step) > Technical Finish (Devilment OR Flourish) > Bloodshower > Fountainfall (Fan Dance III > Fan Dance I if available) > Reverse Cascade OR Saber Dance if available (Fan Dance III/Fan Dance I if available) > Standard Step (Step > Step) > Standard Finish before the buff window ends.
Standard Step is done so early pre-pull for a single-target opener so that you get a second one to land within your Devilment/Technical Finish burst window. If you tried to pop Flourish pre-pull, you would lose a buffed 1,000 potency SF because you’d have to wait and prep ST at -5s or earlier. This would also mess with potion usage and involve more clipping. -
07-02-2019, 10:26 AMWaterShieldQuote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
That's why I pop it... first... then start standard step. They last foreeevvveerrrr.
Sorry, not trying to be rude, I just don't know how else to get this across.
Edit: You know what, I've been misunderstanding what you were saying. Was working with the assumption that the standard step would miss the Technical Step damage boost Window.
After thinking about it more JohnSeal's opener would be best, assuming they move the standard step pre cast to 22-20 seconds before pull. That way you can start with technical and then still get an instant standard off right after.
I'd also then still use flourish pre pull... just right before I started Technical step instead.
The main reason I'm doing what I am currently... is that no tank does a countdown for pulls in a dungeon. It seems to work best given those constraints, but I could be wrong. -
07-02-2019, 10:40 AMRongwayYou're locked out of weaponskills for 5.0 seconds while performing Standard Step. Therefore, you need to account for the potency of the weaponskills you would have been using instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
Cascade: 200
Fountain: 250
Reverse Cascade: 425
Fountainfall: 475
Reverse Cascade and Fountainfall have a 50% chance to proc Fan Dance 1 (150p), which then has a 50% chance to proc Fan Dance 3 (200p). So the expected potency of each of these weaponskills is 150*0.5+200*0.25 higher than listed.
Since Cascade and Fountain have themselves a 50% chance to proc each of their flourishes, there are four possible outcomes:
Cascade(200), Fountain(250): 450/2 → 225 per GCD
Cascade(200), Reverse Cascade(425), Fountain(250): 875/3 → 291.7 per GCD
Cascade(200), Fountain(250), Fountainfall(475): 925/3 → 308.3 per GCD
Cascade(200), Reverse Cascade(425), Fountain(250), Fountainfall(475): 1350/4 → 337.5 per GCD
The average of these four outcomes is 290.625 per GCD. At a GCD of 2.41s, this is 120.6 per second.
Standard Step takes 5.0s to execute, so it locks you out of 603 potency worth of weaponskills you would have been using. Therefore, it's really only worth 397 potency per use.
(This is still a big deal; just not 1000p big.)
(Edit: I prolly should have just added all those individual potencies and divided by 12, to account for each possibility having a different length. In that case, average potency per GCD would be 300, Standard Step would lock you out of 622, and it would only be worth 378 per use.) -
07-02-2019, 11:06 AMJohnSeal
Well the truth is in the between apparently xD I wrote down exactly what WaterShield said as opener and it’s sensibly weaker without even considering party buffs but only yours. As you said mean that your Flourish procs only get 5% buff from Standard. And you dance during party buffs that’s a dmg lost sadly.
XIV openers for all classes follow a principle: You wait for the 4/5/6 gcd into the fight to wait for all possible party buff to come up and THEN burst.
What HyoMin said makes a lot of sense and dmg wise if you dance Technical Steps during the first 10 sec of the fight then you can burst Flourish procs into party buffs. Technical steps vs 4 gcds ( without FDs ogcd) is a dmg gain. In any case in the first 25/30 sec into the fight you can use max 1 Standard Finish anyway.
So atm I can say HyoMin is right.
But... if you have both personal buffs from Standard and Techinical finish you are supppose to gain much more Espirit, my theory ( bacause I still haven’t see in a 8 man raid) is that you get an EXTRA Saber Dance in the first 30 sec of the fight. Do you? If YES mean you get 600 extra pot that would mean “my opener” should win but of like really little something like 200-300 no more than that anyway.
I can’t wait to see and try out (: -
07-02-2019, 11:11 AMYanderePrincessFlourish procs don't last forever. They last 20 seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterShield
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07-02-2019, 11:18 AMHyoMinParkThe individual who provided the opener I posted is far smarter than I am, and they have been doing a lot of the pre-release theorycrafting (and now post-release theorycrafting), so all credit goes to them. This was not something I came up with on my own. Just to be clear lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSeal
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07-02-2019, 11:33 AMWaterShield
Also just want to say, I'm not a math wizard / theory crafter. Just kinda throwing out what comes to mind based on the overall class design. Sorry again for the misunderstanding. 15 seconds should definitely work given 20 seconds on Technical finishes buff, It just means that the standard step in that window will be close to the end of it ^.^'
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07-02-2019, 11:35 AMWaterShieldI worked out the opener HyoMin posted... I am dumb. Please ignore me. (Thought she mean pop it at 15 like John was saying... not start it at 15 to use as first hit.)Quote:
Originally Posted by YanderePrincess
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07-02-2019, 03:07 PMJohnSeal
Well at least we made all a step ahead :) I am not a math genius and sadly can’t have any software to help calculating precisely on ps4.
As also HyoMin said in another post Esprit generation is a mystery still unknown. So I can’t wait to discover how much esprit you generate with your dances’s buffs. We will discover if putting up both buffs prepull allows you to use 2 SaberDance in the first 30 sec of the fight or not. In case not the first “balance “ theory is correct