As the title aptly states I miss Refresh. I haven't played that much in Shadowbringers and I still believe the Bard is in a great state - still probably the most coherent of all the classes. There's a reason they didn't mess with the bards that much and that's because they got it right a while back. We've been in a good state for a while now...but with that said I sure do miss having Refresh and no more TP. I really don't mind that they got rid of TP but I just feel I have a lot less to do now which may be a good thing for some people.
Let's face it. half the abilites we lost are rarely if ever used and nearly all of them aren't used that much by a good majority of bards. I noticed over the last weeks how few Bards actually use Refresh, even when a mage or healer is sitting dangrously low on mana. Even less who use Tactician which I use all the time, mainly to help out Tanks who are low on TP. And then there's poor Palisade which is situational but someting I always throw up in holy crap moments like if we lose one healer and the other one's dangerously low or the tank is about to die. Also, now what am I supposed to hit right before a fight since I no longer have Foe Requiem...now that's an ability I use EVERY fight.
Okay, I'm through whining because really that's all I am doing. Losing these abilites is not a game changer and probably helps to simplify a few things but I sure do miss them. I mean it's pretty much just a reflex to use all of these abilites at this point and it was hilarious doing a dungeon the other day. My hand made my mouse instantly go to my missing spot where Foe Requiem is right as the fight started folowed by me trying to hit Straight Shot so i was a few seconds late to the party.
I haven't gotten any of the new abilities yet so I hope they're amazing and I do have a new one called Arm's Length which is nice but it's recast timer is a bit long at 120 seconds. I just hope I still feel like a "support" dps class compared to a pure dps. I love playing the support role even if my support abilities were a bit meager. I still learned to use them for maximum effect.
Anyway, just sad that I'm missing some old favorites but excited for some new abilities. I still have my songs and a few other things that will support a group but I just hope that others are still as excited to see bards in a group as they used to be now that we're missing some of the extra things we used to bring to the table.
RIP:
Arm Graze, Palisade, Refresh, Tactician, Invigorate, Foe Requiem and Misery's End (the first main one I can remember using and an ability I'm really going to miss).
Bard - I miss Refresh :(
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06-29-2019, 10:31 PMStrayngeBard - I miss Refresh :(
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06-29-2019, 11:14 PMLemuel81
Yes all execute type abilities (Misery's end) are very much missed. I thought it was lame they even removed it. I feel like something is really missing without it.
Overall i feel a less like a support DPS with foes, refresh, etc just gone missing. -
06-29-2019, 11:26 PMConnor
I totally agree, and it’s the main reason I’ve not touched Bard yet.
Sure, Refresh/Tactician etc weren’t used very often. Minne got its cast time doubled and Paean rarely sees enough use to make it a selling point for the job. Personally I used Requiem every time I had enough MP to justify it (without cutting into DPS rotation obviously), but I get that most people hate it because cast time means you can spam jump while hitting Heavy Shot (semi-kidding)
My main problem is that we got nothing in return. Like, we got DPS buffs, but what good is that to a job whose role is supposed to be supporting the party (whilst dealing damage etc). And then there’s the fact that a job whose whole identity revolves around music...gets absolutely nothing even remotely music related in the new expansion.
Like, if they want it to be a Ranger then that’s fine, but I really wish they wouldn’t sell the job as something it’s not; a musician with a bow, rather than an Archer with a harp that can only be used every 30 seconds -
06-30-2019, 03:10 AMmoggyI'm also hesitating to level up a bard for this reason. Right now bard feels a little . . . identity-less? So far, they feel fine to play mechanics-wise. But I think what's still throwing me off a bit is that I'm really not seeing a huge difference between Archer and Bard anymore. Outside of the 3 songs we have left, our remaining "bard"-themed abilities are mostly just huge 180s CDs that have the super basic "flute spin" animation or similar, and all of our new abilities are just straight up Generic Archer 1 abilities. I guess it just would have been nice to see a bit more thought put into our last 70-80 abilities and the bard theme in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor
Boy do I miss busting out that harp and the little tune that went along with it. Alas. -
06-30-2019, 03:42 AMXieldras
I agree with the main title : I miss Refresh.
I also miss Minne and Palissade. These skills helped me out immensely when raiding with my group and they offered extra help for the healers (although Palissade only mitigating physical damage meant it could only be used on tanks for a boss' auto-attacks). Requiem was always used whenever my MP was at full, sometimes I paired it with Refresh on the 2nd time during the fight, sometimes not. Paean does fast cleanse anyone with a cleansable debuff and saves many butts (looking at you people standing on the fire side during Hashmal's fight) and meant I could help shift Healer's focus a bit away from cleansing one person and more on whatever else.
I played Bard for its support set, while still dealing out damage and moving around. We lost half the support kit while only getting more damage in return and I think Square's decision here was simply because they looked at the hard data, saw the amount of Bards not using those skills and simply removed them. I am not going to lie when I'm saying there is a LOT of bad Bards out there simply looking to play Archer with a rotation. You shouldn't have to change the soul of a class because people are too lazy to use their full kit.
All in all, very sad about the changes and going back to Fisher main. -
06-30-2019, 03:47 AMMOZZYSTAR
I agree with Lemuel. I feel like less of a support DPS now, and more like a regular support without palisade, foe requiem, MP(/TP) refresh, and so on. Not sure why Misery's End was taken out, and not sure why they took out MP refresh seeing as we still have MP.
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06-30-2019, 03:55 AMXieldrasMisery's End was taken out like all execution skills. I do kind of understand their reasoning, seeing as it was only used in the last 20% of the fight, but man I'm going to miss that cool animation. Snapping your fingers as your arrows hit your target, cool stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOZZYSTAR
Refresh being gone is because, If I remember right, Healers have a more boosted Lucid or MP regen. It could also be because Refresh by itself was a reason to pick Bard and they wanted no class to lock a spot on parties (then again, Dancer exists now so....). -
06-30-2019, 04:04 AMHyoMinParkFor what it's worth, Nature's Minne is still in the game. It just has a higher CD now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xieldras
However, I too feel as if BRD lost its support identity that I loved so much from the moment I first started playing it. I haven't leveled it any since I swapped to DNC, but my decision to swap my mains in the first place was fueled by the particular hard hit BRD took to its utility (even if it was a necessary one due to how locked it was in the meta). I really miss Refresh and Foe's management - now my MP just sits there unused. -
06-30-2019, 04:10 AMZynesteThe only classes that completely suffer the loss of Refresh are SMN/RDM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xieldras
Here's to hoping RDM DPS gets pushed closer to the middle of the pack with SMN nearby from the stronger MP limitations put on raise. [350 potency per minute MP regen now vs 447 while in STB with a ranged. ~2,800 MP per minute now vs "then" ~3,570, costing us the MP return of a raise every 3-4 minutes.] -
06-30-2019, 04:25 AMXieldrasWhile I agree Bard was heavily locked in the meta, I personally disagree on the changes brought forward being necessary. Removing a skill instead of a rework or tweak (heck, a nerf if that's what was needed) means sacrificing part of the identity of the class for the sake of balance. To me a skill removal should be a last resort ; then again I'm no game dev so I can only guess and give ideas with the information present to me. For the class, if I had to choose between a few high % buffs or more low % buffs, I would choose more buffs, simply because of more possibilities during situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
As for mains, I'll probably become a masochist again and go back to Fisher. For dungeons and raiding, I still haven't decided yet so I think I'll level up at least the other classes a bit before choosing. Maybe test out Machinist (RIP Reload and Heat Gauge you beautiful, interesting mechanics that were too clunky to be fun) since I like to move around in the back. Nevertheless, I too am jumping ship for another class. -
06-30-2019, 10:30 PMStraynge
I'm not jumping ship. I have yet to find a class that enjoy playing half as much as a bard. Just the mobility, being able to position myself how I want in every single fight is enough for me. I love the fact that I constantly stay in motion without slowing down any of my attacks and it's hella useful to dodge aoe's but I'm still sad that I no longer feel as if I have anything even remotely unique to bring to a party. Yeah, my songs still help but it was all those other litttle things that I enjoyed so much. It's odd not having to watch mage's mana now....which is usually what gets me killed more than anything lol.
Change is always weird and I'll admit I'm not one of those persons who really likes change that much but I'll get used to it. After looking over the new abilites I am a bit disappointed though. I was going off of the hope that some new and improved utility would be added but nope...just more dps. I just remember while leveling and how cool it was that all of the bows were also harps and that all of the class quests really focused on us being bards who utilize songs and music to add to our abilities with the bows. Why would they just abandon that? It was gradual but at some point I started noticing that the harp designs started fading while our bows began looking more and more normal. I guess I sort of miss that emphasis on actually being, you know a bard. Why not just change us to archers and clear up the confusion? I'm really not trying to complain here or discourage anyone from playing a bard. We're still a great class (the best in my opinion) but man do I miss having more of a supporting role. It just feels awkward. -
06-30-2019, 10:44 PMHezzlocks
While leveling DNC today I got into an Aurum Vale with a new tank, who was pretty bad and didn't know any mechanics, wiped 3 times before he ate morbol fruit on the 1st boss and didn't dodge a single hit on the Coincounter, and a new healer, who was pretty good but clearly entirely unprepared for the horrors that Aurum Vale brings upon healers, let alone the sheer agony of Aurum Vale with a bad tank.
I found myself wishing I had Refresh more than ever before, because that healer was really struggling. -
07-01-2019, 05:40 AMBluejay
I am moving on as well. This class is so boring I can't deal with playing it for the rest of the expac.
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07-01-2019, 05:48 AMTyssyn
I haven't actually looked at Bard or RDM yet, the two dps classes I was swapping mains between - I loved RDM in dungeons/raids for the ability to heal myself if I oopsed or to help out the healers and verraise of course. I have been doing DNC, which I love a lot, but I do intend to level both the others. I am dreading it a bit for all the changes though.
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07-02-2019, 01:10 AMStraynge
Just a weird thing I noticed yesterday. When gaining XP it now says "Archer experience" instead of "Bard". Maybe this isn't a new thing though. i'm not really sure because I really never payed much attention to it. Before Shadowbringers when you gained XP did it used to say Bard or Archer experience? If they did change it that's so weird and definitely shows they're moving us more towards a tradional archer as opposed to a Bard. If it's always been like this then shame on me for never noticing...probably got distracted by something shiny which happens a lot :D
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07-02-2019, 02:48 AMXieldrasDid you have your Soul Crystal on?Quote:
Originally Posted by Straynge
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07-02-2019, 06:58 AMYanderePrincessPretty sure it's always said the base class for any jobs that have one, because that's technically what you're gaining exp on (thus why smn and sch are both increased in level together, cause you're gaining arcanist exp).Quote:
Originally Posted by Straynge
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07-02-2019, 07:12 AMHyoMinParkFor jobs that have base classes, it has always said “You gain [number] [class] experience”.Quote:
Originally Posted by Straynge
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07-02-2019, 03:53 PMAncientCrystal
I saw this coming a mile away before 5.0 The moment I saw they were removing Refresh (which was BRD/MCH main utility skill) I knew the job was in for trouble. I moved on to GNB for now.
I do feel that if they would just give Refresh back to BRD that would be enough to make people feel it has good utility again. But I think the reasoning for removing it was they wanted healers to manage their MP better. -
07-02-2019, 09:25 PMXieldrasI think a lot of Bard mains out there saw the Tour video or read the changes and said "oh no". I certainly did.Quote:
Originally Posted by AncientCrystal
I do wonder if a better way to balance 2 rDPS support-type classes would've been to make Dancer focused on 1-person buffs and Bard on AOE/Raid-wide utility buffs. Buff Dancer's since it's single target while Bard's keeps a lower potency.
Maybe another way would've been that Bard's buffs could focus more on certain types like mp generation and defensive-type buffs while Dancer's would be more offensive-focused. -
07-02-2019, 11:53 PMConnorI think your second option would have been perfect. Dancer has Shield Samba and Curing Waltz, but generally it’s support is in damage buffs. So it makes sense that a competing ranged DPS would offer something it doesn’t, like defensive/utility oriented buffs. It also means it doesn’t encroach onto the territory of the third competitor which is more about direct damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xieldras
Or they could just remove all the utility and give it no place between the competitors. I don’t know if Machinist actually does more DPS than Bards, but if it does then Bard may as well not exist lol. It can’t compete with Dancer’s support, and probably not with Machinist’s straight up damage.
Also, I wish they wouldn’t give us support abilities that exist for the sole reason of being able to say Bards provide support. Like, when has anyone ever said ‘wow I’m so glad I had Minne’, ‘things went so much better with Paean’, ‘that Battle Voice really helped our DPS’. Especially when they’re all off GCD and thus can’t really do much outside of being a token ‘support’ ability.
At least Requiem required a bit of thought lol -
07-03-2019, 12:05 AMJandor
It'd be nice if it got Refresh back, or maybe an MP transfer type ability. Would help keep the 'support' aspect of it alive during prog at least.
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07-03-2019, 12:30 AMXieldrasWhich is probably why so many people forgot about it lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Connor
I think the quantity of buffs we had in SB hit the perfect balance for the class. We had a cleanse, 2 enmity reducers one of which acted as a mp generator as well and good varied mitigation to help out our healers and tanks. I believe the devs could look at the Healer's buffs and tweak Bard's so they flow together more easily (since Healers are a must at least it wouldn't technically turn Bard into a must-pick), as in offer something that Healers might be lacking like a boost in healing or a boost in regen potency.
My 2nd suggestion might indeed be one of the best options moving forward with 2 support-rDPS hybrids, in my honest opinion of course. -
07-04-2019, 11:23 AMCadeElmwood
I probably wouldn't be nearly as salty about the lack of support skills on Bard if we could use the ones we still have more often and at earlier levels. I think the fact that we get Troubadour at 62 while Dancer and Machinist get the same thing, Shield Samba and Tactician, at 56 is odd to me, especially since Bard is supposed to be more support focused than MCH. I'd like to use Nature's Minne more often than once every 90 sec, even if it is useless to an extent, but I'd also like Palisade or something like it for tankbuster mitigation, and Arm's Length is near useless outside of solo content.
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07-05-2019, 10:15 PMStraynge
Okay, after leveling to 76 I can so on just the pure dps side I'm really enjoying my Bard. I still my my "support" stuff but the class still feels very fluid...even though I still feel the loss of my old skills and that something's lacking. I'm having a fun time with it. On one hand I really miss being more of a supporting class and on the other it's super nice not to have to watch my teammates mana or tp anymore. I'm able to focus more on the fight and I'm getting hit with less stuff. Most of my getting hit or dying was from me glacing up at everyone's mana/health/tp whatever every so often so now that I don't have to that's gone. I love the fact that refulgent arrow is now much more useful. It felt like it would only ever pop up every so often in the past....usually when a mob is practically dead so while it was useful in boss fights it always just felt a little too late for anything else most of the time. Now it's popping up repeatedly and has become one of my major abilities I use. Shadowbite is a really decent aoe especially if you have your dots already on your targets which you should always do anyway so that will help more Bards learn to dot up all their enemies and I love the new animation on our main shot (sorry, can't recall it's name atm).
All in all I feel our dps was increased quite a bit. I didn't notice anything at first especially at 70. I was being out dps'd by a lot of other classes easily but by 74 I noticed I was taking down mobs a lot faster than a lot of the classes I saw running around me. Of course it could just be a coincidence and maybe they had crap gear on but it feels like from a pure dps perspective we're still in a very good place and our songs still bring good stuff to the table. I heard someone mention that Dancers now bring a lot more support than we do....if that's so then I'm definitely going to check the class out. I always love playing a supporting role in addition to doing dps but other than losing most of our support I feel the Bard is still a fun and strong class to play. From a pure dps standpoint you really can't go wrong with a Bard. I mean sure there's other classes that can out damage us but our mobility gives us a huge edge. Our damage never has to stop. Of course I need to check in with my machinist soon so I can see what changes they got and how good or bad they are now. I never liked the convoluted bullet charging mess that was a Machinist though so I'm hoping it feels more fluid now. If not then the Dancer will be my next try. My Bard will continue to be my main though. I love it too much. I loved it before I learned how to use my support abilities to help my group so if anything I'm just reverting to what I initially fell in love with.