whm weaving

can the Afflatus skills be instant AND not be on the global cool down. i was excited that whm was getting instant casts but it really doesnt matter since now of them can be weaved

It's a little tricky because you're limited in your weaving opportunities anyways. You won't clip your dot just to weave into it and you can't always wait for your dot to fall off before casting a heal. So the end result would basically a lot of gcd clipping. WHM needs an ogcd dps skill to weave into it's instant heals instead.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

It's a little tricky because you're limited in your weaving opportunities anyways. You won't clip your dot just to weave into it and you can't always wait for your dot to fall off before casting a heal. So the end result would basically a lot of gcd clipping. WHM needs a dps skill to weave into it's instants instead.

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Dia is actually a decent weaving tool that you cant also use when you can't stand still to cast Glare. 120 potency on-hit for a DoT is a lot.
And if you spam it (during movement heavy mechanics for example), you can account for 2.5s worth of DoT, for a total of 170 potency (120+50).

Definitly worth using it like a SCH would use Ruin II.

We obviously can't have nice things, so no, our weaving will remain crap forever as far as SE is concerned.

I do agree with Fyce that Dia is a pretty good weaving tool, especially during movement, though. But unfortunately, the server tick might interfere with it's potency.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Dia is actually a decent weaving tool that you cant also use when you can't stand still to cast Glare. 120 potency on-hit for a DoT is a lot.
And if you spam it (during movement heavy mechanics for example), you can account for 2.5s worth of DoT, for a total of 170 potency (120+50).

Definitly worth using it like a SCH would use Ruin II.

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Erm, No.

First of all, as a sch you shouldn't be considering using ruin II (that has 200 potency) as a weaving option for single weaves (only double weaves). And that's while considering that their alternative (Broil III) is 280 pot. What you're suggesting is using a 120 potency skill to weave when the alternative is a 300 potency Glare. Don't do it. You will loose more DPS than by just clipping your GCD with glare + ogcd. And you also can't count the tick towards your dps if you're overwriting an existing dot (since those would have ticked anyways)
If you can't cast anything because of movement then yes Dia spam is an actual option. But it does not work as a general weaving tool.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Erm, No.

First of all, as a sch you shouldn't be considering using ruin II (that has 200 potency) as a weaving option for single weaves (only double weaves). And that's while considering that their alternative (Broil III) is 280 pot. What you're suggesting is using a 120 potency skill to weave when the alternative is a 300 potency Glare. Don't do it. You will loose more DPS than by just clipping your GCD with glare + ogcd. And you also can't count the tick towards your dps if you're overwriting an existing dot (since those would have ticked anyways)
If you can't cast anything because of movement then yes Dia spam is an actual option. But it does not work as a general weaving tool.

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I never suggested to use it for single weave though. Maybe I should've been more explicit and only mention double weaves, but I thought adding the bit about SCH at the end was enough.
My bad, I guess.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Erm, No.

First of all, as a sch you shouldn't be considering using ruin II (that has 200 potency) as a weaving option for single weaves (only double weaves). And that's while considering that their alternative (Broil III) is 280 pot. What you're suggesting is using a 120 potency skill to weave when the alternative is a 300 potency Glare. Don't do it. You will loose more DPS than by just clipping your GCD with glare + ogcd. And you also can't count the tick towards your dps if you're overwriting an existing dot (since those would have ticked anyways)
If you can't cast anything because of movement then yes Dia spam is an actual option. But it does not work as a general weaving tool.

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Dia is 120 base potency, 60 per tick. The Potency of Glare is 300 or 120 PPS. This means that for Every second clipping the GCD and not casting Glare you are losing 120 potency.

Overwriting Dia, 3 seconds in to weave a GCD is the same potency as having clipped your GCD to Glare + Mobility. 120 + 60 + 120. Double weaving it, you net a DPS gain over clipping the GCD of 120 potency.

Overwriting Dia, at 9 seconds is a complete DPS gain over Glare. 300 + the additional effects of SpS. Anything weaved with it is also an additional gain.

You do count the ticks that happened before the clip. The damage happened. You don't count the ticks that didn't happen.

At this point, it's a pretty clear design intention that they definitely do not want White Mages to be doing much of anything between GCDs. Maybe catch up on sleep?

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Dia is 120 base potency, 60 per tick. The Potency of Glare is 300 or 120 PPS. This means that for Every second clipping the GCD and not casting Glare you are losing 120 potency.

Overwriting Dia, 3 seconds in to weave a GCD is the same potency as having clipped your GCD to Glare + Mobility. 120 + 60 + 120. Double weaving it, you net a DPS gain over clipping the GCD of 120 potency.

Overwriting Dia, at 9 seconds is a complete DPS gain over Glare. 300 + the additional effects of SpS. Anything weaved with it is also an additional gain.

You do count the ticks that happened before the clip. The damage happened. You don't count the ticks that didn't happen.

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Sorry it took so long to get back to the replies. I was obviously caught up in the expansion >.>

Regarding your math, Something is off, Dia instant is 120/2.5s (48), Glare+clip is 300/3.3s (90). So alone this definitely doesn't make up for it. You also can't count the ticks towards the total because you should take 100% uptime as your default. Any clipping you do of your dot will not change your dps output but it will eventually cost you an extra gcd later on in the fight. Thinking of it as "clipping Dia After 12s is a dps gain on Glare" is inaccurate because it's a dps loss compared to letting Dia fall off naturally; as explained above past 10 clips you'll spend an entire gcd keeping Dia up. For the record the potency loss from a clip would be around 18 pot (7) if I'm not mistaken (basically a tenth of a glare gcd minus what you get back from dia initial hit, and not 60 from the tick as you might think).
This means that Clipping Dia to weave calculates to (120 - (18*<number of ticks clipped>))/2.5. Which is even worse. The only time you don't get a loss from it is if you clip it less than 10 times in a fight or you clip it responsibly before a phase transition. But even then you're better off clipping your glare.

Just clip your gcd and ask SE to give you a dps ogcd to weave after your healing instants. Instead of healing ogcds.

Edit: changed numbers a bit because I forgot original dia pot when calculating the loss.

if u clip a DoT with a refreshed DoT, the potency loss isnt in the new DoT, but the prior DoT.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Sorry it took so long to get back to the replies. I was obviously caught up in the expansion >.>

Regarding your math, Something is off, Dia instant is 120/2.5s (48), Glare+clip is 300/3.3s (90). So alone this definitely doesn't make up for it. You also can't count the ticks towards the total because you should take 100% uptime as your default. Any clipping you do of your dot will not change your dps output but it will eventually cost you an extra gcd later on in the fight. Thinking of it as "clipping Dia After 12s is a dps gain on Glare" is inaccurate because it's a dps loss compared to letting Dia fall off naturally; as explained above past 10 clips you'll spend an entire gcd keeping Dia up. For the record the potency loss from a clip would be around 18 pot (7) if I'm not mistaken (basically a tenth of a glare gcd minus what you get back from dia initial hit, and not 60 from the tick as you might think).
This means that Clipping Dia to weave calculates to (120 - (18*<number of ticks clipped>))/2.5. Which is even worse. The only time you don't get a loss from it is if you clip it less than 10 times in a fight or you clip it responsibly before a phase transition. But even then you're better off clipping your glare.

Just clip your gcd and ask SE to give you a dps ogcd to weave after your healing instants. Instead of healing ogcds.

Edit: changed numbers a bit because I forgot original dia pot when calculating the loss.

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Most OGCDs, with the exception of maybe mudras (since the adjustment) have an animation cast time of 1 second, if not longer.

I can see part of your arguement in that by clipping your DOT, you are overwriting what was always supposed to be there, so thats why you arent including the DOT ticks in the old DOT and calling it a flat 120, but this isn't right either.


A full "cycle" of Dia with glare would bring a pps of:

1 x Dia 11 Glares
720 + 3300 = 4,020. This makes the PPS of the GCDS 134. 14 up from pure Glare Spam. 35 potency per 2.5 sec GCD. So each DOT we clip and prevent would net us a loss from a Max point of view.

The formula I could think of is as follows

[DOT Total potency at clip - Filler Spell Potency] - [seconds clipped x (Full cycle PPS - Filler Spam PPS)]

An Example would then be:

9 seconds in Reapply Dia.

[(120 + 180) - 300] - [21 x 14]

0 - 294 = -294

Wed then take that and compare it to the DPS lost from clipping the GCD which would be the PPS of the filler spell or 120.

In this case -120 > -294 so it would be better to clip the GCD rather than to weave. We can then continue this pattern.

Clipping at 12 seconds.

[(120 + 240) - 300] - [18 x 14]

60 - 252 = -192

-120 > -192.

Continue again.

[(120 + 300) - 300] - [15 x 14]

120 - 210 = -90

-120 < -90

In this case clipping your DOT and weaving at 15 seconds is going to be a net gain over clipping your GCD for sure.

Thank you for helping me to re-evaluate it from the simpler way I was doing it before. I think in many cases, my original method would work out, just from how much DOT is left on the boss by the time it died, but this way would be much more accurate. But I do stand by that WHM still does have Dia as a weave option as a better mitigation loss to DPS than just clipping the GCD.

So, I got to test WHM in the new level 80 dungeons today and I have to say... it feels even slower to me than before. I spend so much time waiting for the GCD to wear off after using one of my new instant skills while not having much to weave with, it's not even funny... if I use them at all, which, except for Afflatus Rapture, I barely ever do outside of trash packs. Temperance is also either not really needed, or needed more often than I can use it with overzealous tanks, confirming my underwhelming first impression of the skill. It really needs a shorter CD, and at least Afflatus Misery needs to be oGCD or else I will have gone mad before the raids even drop. Better would be all of them being oGCD, but on a CD for a few seconds. Also, I was still sitting on 3 Lilies from time to time without any feasible way to dump them (I refuse to overheal/loose DPS through suboptimal Lily usage), so I really think we need a way to dump them outside of healing.

I also noticed that my heals feel kinda underwhelming compared to how much they healed before relative to party HP and I actually used two AoE-heals back-to-back a few times already to make sure people got enough HP for the next mechanic, which isn't all that bad I guess, but pretty annoying. It might be because of this being the start of the expansion and our Mind stat being very low in comparison, but I'm not quite sure about this. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but as I said, slightly annoying when you know how it was before. It looks like this is an impression across all healers, too.

The one thing I really like about the new WHM, though, is that it's basically impossible to run out of MP now...

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Most OGCDs, with the exception of maybe mudras (since the adjustment) have an animation cast time of 1 second, if not longer.

I can see part of your arguement in that by clipping your DOT, you are overwriting what was always supposed to be there, so thats why you arent including the DOT ticks in the old DOT and calling it a flat 120, but this isn't right either.


A full "cycle" of Dia with glare would bring a pps of:

1 x Dia 11 Glares
720 + 3300 = 4,020. This makes the PPS of the GCDS 134. 14 up from pure Glare Spam. 35 potency per 2.5 sec GCD. So each DOT we clip and prevent would net us a loss from a Max point of view.

The formula I could think of is as follows

[DOT Total potency at clip - Filler Spell Potency] - [seconds clipped x (Full cycle PPS = Filler Spam PPS)]

An Example would then be:

9 seconds in Reapply Dia.

[(120 + 180) - 300] - [21 x 14]

0 - 294 = -294

Wed then take that and compare it to the DPS lost from clipping the GCD which would be the PPS of the filler spell or 120.

In this case -120 > -294 so it would be better to clip the GCD rather than to weave. We can then continue this pattern.

Clipping at 12 seconds.

[(120 + 240) - 300] - [18 x 14]

60 - 252 = -192

-120 > -192.

Continue again.

[(120 + 300) - 300] - [15 x 14]

120 - 210 = -90

-120 < -90

In this case clipping your DOT and weaving at 15 seconds is going to be a net gain over clipping your GCD for sure.

Thank you for helping me to re-evaluate it from the simpler way I was doing it before. I think in many cases, my original method would work out, just from how much DOT is left on the boss by the time it died, but this way would be much more accurate. But I do stand by that WHM still does have Dia as a weave option as a better mitigation loss to DPS than just clipping the GCD.

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Woo I love this type of discussion :D

It's a little late for me and I need to be able to focus on your reply so I'll give it more thought tomorrow. But one thing jumped out at me:

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Wed then take that and compare it to the DPS lost from clipping the GCD which would be the PPS of the filler spell or 120.

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Assuming a 1s ogcd. That means that the PPS of 300pot for 2.5s is 300/2.5 = 120. Now the PPS for the same 300 skill with a 1s clip would be 300/3.5 ~= 86. So the PPS of the filler is the difference between the two ~= -34.
It's a bit confusing but basically it's a loss of 120 potency over the course of 3.5 seconds (120/3.5 ~= 34) and not 120 in a vacuum over 1s (the confusion comes from the fact you calculate 120 as being 1s of glare so you look at it as being the PPS of your 1s clip of glare.. It's a bit of a mindf**k).