You've done it again with SMN.

Deleted the Ruin IV egi autoattack trait, buffed both Phoenix and Bahamut, nerfed Ruin's potency.
Phoenix potencies are over the top now, and Bahamut is stronger too because Ifrit's autoattack potency has been lowered to 80, barely reaching half of the potency of Bahamut's wyrmwave.

We are back to the same old thing. Bahamut and Phoenix being the beginning and end of everything. Two 20 second phases where nothing can go wrong, stored or delayed unless you want to see your DPS sink into oblivion. Watch boss go immune or a downtime happenning during those times. Proceed to cry into a corner.

Well no, thank you, I was really looking forward to playing SMN but I'll go RDM. I don't want another clunky mess even if it's flashy.

Why couldn't you just give us a more stable rotation where we'd be rotating Bahamut and Phoenix permanently, and not this 60s garbage Ruin spam downtimes followed by a Bahamut/Phoenix 20s phase that screams to be trolled by mechanics every time.

Wanted to make a post about how you're overreacting, but then looked at 5.0 rotation a little and it's hard r3 spam mostly... Kinda hard to tell how it'll feel without playing it, but overall yeah feels like bunch of weird choices from SE designers again. They double down on downtimes and ruin spam again and again. Wonder why

You guys haven't even played the job yet with the new changes and already making judgmental calls on it. This is what Yoshida is talking about when people haven't even played the new changes yet and are complaining about them. Play the job with the new changes before you can even judge the changes.

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

You guys haven't even played the job yet with the new changes and already making judgmental calls on it. This is what Yoshida is talking about when people haven't even played the new changes yet and are complaining about them. Play the job with the new changes before you can even judge the changes.

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Prepare to get complained at alot and have snap judgments made about you and insults hurled this forum is full of people that just KNOW how things are going to be. I've pretty much given up on trying to even get through to them at this point they're gonna keep it up on through the first half of the expac.

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

You guys haven't even played the job yet with the new changes and already making judgmental calls on it. This is what Yoshida is talking about when people haven't even played the new changes yet and are complaining about them. Play the job with the new changes before you can even judge the changes.

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Pff after a mess that was 4.0 SMN? Can you blame people for being cautious? SMN design was weird for a while. Playing or not won't change 40s downtime window after FBT and before DWT etc.

Am i missing something or are you guys not calculating your times correctly? I only see 2 points of downtime, one between Dreadwyrm and Firebird Trance, of 25 seconds, and the second downtime is after Firebird Trance, of 40 seconds.

That's not so bad, considering you are SUMMONING an incredibly powerful being, so it should feel like it. If you had constant command of both then they might as well just be pets, and that's not what summoned creatures are in FF games.

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Originally Posted by ColdGuy

Am i missing something or are you guys not calculating your times correctly? I only see 2 points of downtime, one between Dreadwyrm and Firebird Trance, of 25 seconds, and the second downtime is after Firebird Trance, of 40 seconds.

That's not so bad, considering you are SUMMONING an incredibly powerful being, so it should feel like it. If you had constant command of both then they might as well just be pets, and that's not what summoned creatures are in FF games.

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OP is obviously overreacting but yeah you are missing something - context of 4.0 launch and a mess that summoner was back then. It was pretty rough for a while and people don't want a repeat of that. ALSO what are you talking about? powerful being? I mean I guess some people probably care about RP aspect of SMN but it's not the concern here at all... Tho tbh if MUH BEING was SE reason for downtime it'd be pretty hilarious

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Originally Posted by Angry_Evil

OP is obviously overreacting but yeah you are missing something - context of 4.0 launch and a mess that summoner was back then. It was pretty rough for a while and people don't want a repeat of that. ALSO what are you talking about? powerful being? I mean I guess some people probably care about RP aspect of SMN but it's not the concern here at all... Tho tbh if MUH BEING was SE reason for downtime it'd be pretty hilarious

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You what mate? Have you ever played an RPG? Role-playing game? If they didn't care about the thematic, they might a well just make it a bunch of numbered buttons and leave it at that. I think you're missing the entire point of RPGs.

Longer down-times are a side effect of high-damage windows, you can't have high-damage all the time with no maintenance, they want to make the summons feel powerful but there has to be a downside to it, it's called balance. I certainly see their reasoning, but yours is only wanting to change a class into something that suits your person rather than the thematic.

It's not going to be a repeat of 4.0, but it's not going to be as smooth sailing as people seem to imagine it may be. You can read my update on akhmorning.com here about the latest batch of changes.

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Originally Posted by ColdGuy

You what mate? Have you ever played an RPG? Role-playing game? If they didn't care about the thematic, they might a well just make it a bunch of numbered buttons and leave it at that. I think you're missing the entire point of RPGs.

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It's like people forgot about 4.0. Really?

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Longer down-times are a side effect of high-damage windows, you can't have high-damage all the time with no maintenance, they want to make the summons feel powerful but there has to be a downside to it, it's called balance.

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There are much more concerns than just downtime. I dunno why you're so fixated on that. But even then "downtime" would be fine but doing mostly nothing but pressing R3 for 40 seconds is kinda meh. People were complaining about ruin spam literally for years.

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I certainly see their reasoning, but yours is only wanting to change a class into something that suits your person rather than the thematic.

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I think you need to chill. I literally didn't even propose any changes LOL I'm just cautiously concerned

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Originally Posted by ColdGuy

Am i missing something or are you guys not calculating your times correctly? I only see 2 points of downtime, one between Dreadwyrm and Firebird Trance, of 25 seconds, and the second downtime is after Firebird Trance, of 40 seconds.

That's not so bad, considering you are SUMMONING an incredibly powerful being, so it should feel like it. If you had constant command of both then they might as well just be pets, and that's not what summoned creatures are in FF games.

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The second downtime is actually 60 seconds. Your DWT is nothing, just a deathflare and some mobility, your real DPS increases happen in Bahamut and Phoenix. The rest of your rotation consists on using Ruin III and weaving Energy Drain and your 2 Festers with your Egi Assaulted Ruin IVs.

You try it and tell me how exciting it is. I'll have my popcorn ready.

People don't need to be geniuses to realize that on a 2 min rotation, you have

one hardcast of dots so 2 GCDs (others coming from Tri-D)
Phoenix for 20 sec where there is no ruin (8 GCDs), even if it's just ruin glamour I'll count it as separate
4 times 2 egi assault giving you Ruin IV so 8 GCDs of Ruin 4

So in total, there are only 18 GCDs in 2 minutes that are not Ruin 3, the remaining whooping 30 GCDs of that period of time being the same spell : Ruin 3 (so spamming it 60 % of the time).

We can't say without testing ? OF COURSE we can. We can't know the whole job but a very big chunk of it can be projected if you have 2 functioning brain cells and can connect dots (no pun intended)

You think people can't project planes before being in the cokpit up there ? How do you think they're made ? (the you is general not necessarily previous poster)

It appears Summoner is a really complex job with lots of buttons to press. Have you tried it out yet?

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

It appears Summoner is a really complex job with lots of buttons to press. Have you tried it out yet?

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Yup. The OGCD bloat mess is real.

I liked the place SMN was in at the end of 4.x. Yes, you got screwed if a boss went immune during DWT/Bahamut, but it flowed well imo. Ran SMN through the first dungeon and it just feels like a mess now; spent £20 on BLM lv70 instead. Won’t be investing time/effort into it for a while I think.

The irony, Gallus, is that you said contrary in response to our own concerns. These were all known well in advance. Only to receive from other players a chorus of "You haven't played it yet, wait" and other notions that it won't be that way. Surprise surprise, we've played and it's how we claimed.

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Originally Posted by Nemekh

The irony, Gallus, is that you said contrary in response to our own concerns. These were all known well in advance. Only to receive from other players a chorus of "You haven't played it yet, wait" and other notions that it won't be that way. Surprise surprise, we've played and it's how we claimed.

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Hey wait a second here. I don't recall saying SMN was going to be easy. What I said back then is the fact I liked how the potencies were looking because while Bahamut and Phoenix were DPS increases, they weren't the beginning and end of everything so our DPS was looking more like a stable line. A few weeks later Ifrit's egi auto's potency goes from 135 to 80, Ruin III potency goes from 250 to 200, and Phoenix fountain of fire and brand of purgatory's potency is buffed. Literally the opposite of what I wanted. Then, to add salt to the wound, they remove the autoattack Egi Trait that would've allowed us to stack a lot of Ruin IV spells and thus give us a lot of instant casts to weave all the overwhelming amount of OGCDs (that would've been a little bit less overwhelming provided this did not happen as we would've had a lot more mobility without DPS loss).

But yeah, you are right about one thing and it's that I did not predict the OGCD mess it was going to be, but who did? How could we know double weaving egi assault and egi assault II could result in an OGCD being lost? And how could we know they would troll us the Ruin IV Egi autoattack trait at the very last second?

We didn't know how the hell SMN was going to be until the very first day of the expansion where we could play it ourselves. Too many relevant changes at the very last second happened to predict anything here.

Double weaving two pet actions has always had consequences and issues since ARR. Yes, we expected there to be problems (and bugs) with weaving too many pet actions sequentially. While we didn't initially expect the EA trait to have R4 only be from EAs, from the E3 build we planned our rotation sheets with "0 rng R4s" in mind, that only EAs would give them. And from the E3 footage, we could expect this because only one EA was used to force a proc: EA1.

I went over the changes from E3 on my twitter, in The Balance and elsewhere, only to once again detail release changes. SE are fairly formulaic in what they do.

We have kept abreast with information and almost all was as we expected. The only true (negative) surprise that is mentioned nowhere be it in videos nor patch/ll notes is the fact that melee egis neither have "Attack" anymore and that has crippled their damage output.