That's the best word I can use to describe it. I am aware that nothing is final until 5.0 actually drops, but still...I can't help but notice that compared to the skills of the other Tanks, DRK just looks lackluster.
The main thing that sticks out to me is how some of GNB, PLD, and WAR's skills have many effects packed in one, but most of DRK's skills are just pure damage or something along those lines. I mean, I was pretty taken aback when a saw that Living Shadow was basically just a D.O.T. I'm really hoping that Square does something with that skill, because if they just keep as pure damage, it will be a pretty big disappointment and a waste of potential. I feel the same way with Salted Earth, still just another D.O.T, and a waste of potential.
Also, I really hope they do something with Dark Mind and Dark Missionary. You just can't give one Tank cds that only mitigate one type of damage while giving the rest equivalent cds that mitigate all types of damage. Then plus, Dark Mind got nerfed? Ugh. Come on Square :/ do you guys hate Dark Knight or something?
The TBN buff is appreciated, but honestly that's the only true upgrade I feel like DRK has received thus far. Man, even Blood Weapon was nerfed.
DRK's 5.0 rework just feels...incomplete.
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06-09-2019, 08:52 AMTheForceDRK's 5.0 rework just feels...incomplete.
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06-09-2019, 09:01 AMAnger
IMO DRK was always a novelty or "fun" tank. I think WAR and PLD were the main ones since 2.1
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06-09-2019, 09:03 AMshao32
it's not only incomplete, it's the most lazy rework ever made, they reduce DRK gameplay to the minimun expresion, everything you have in HW it's gone or sustituted by a copy mechanic from another job.
anyone will notice the new gauge its more useless that the lilis, not only it shows useless information since darkside it's imposible to fade off and the diference of have a trait or the old darkside with this new version is none, the new timer it's useless too since we can't interact with fray so why the big timer? to see how much time left to a skill that can't be buff or interact at all? and the small dark arts symbol for what? we are going to use the free MP action as soon as we are on risk to overcap MP and that will happen pretty quick, in resume you can remove it and you gameplay won't be affected.
my bigest grip is delirium, just delete this thing please. -
06-09-2019, 09:05 AMTheForce
No. There aren't "main" tanks like you're suggesting, every Tank class should be comparable to one another and be properly balanced in the best way possible.
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06-09-2019, 12:14 PMShurrikhanDRK was the superior MT in Heavensward throughout Gordias. It remained quite strong throughout the expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger
It also was not introduced until Heavensward, and thus couldn't exactly compete with WAR and PLD through 2.x...
So... absolutely nothing to do with the fact it had the most significant and on-demand magic resistance in magic-heavy fights like A4S? Nothing to do with it not only needing to be MT but also having the highest MT damage of the three tanks? Hmm. I'll admit, those weren't by leaps and bounds, but I've a hard time believing they were non-factors, else double-Warrior would have been more than worth its LB generation penalty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
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06-09-2019, 06:03 PMFreyyyThe only reason for that was because PLD was shit back then (worst DPS, worst opening aggro, worst magic damage mitigation and just average physical mitigation, worst utility) and DRK had job mechanics that forced him into taking damage to increase its DPS. DRK already had problems in HW, but the job was meta and a lot of fun so we thought that it didn't need to be fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
The on-demand magic resistance was so strong back then because PLD wasn't able to block magic. Magic block Sheltron in A4S would've been as good as DM. Highest MT damage of the three tanks was only achieved in some fights, the mostly physical ones for more low blows and more consistent Reprisals, A3S for example. In most of the other fights WAR had equal or higher DPS depending on how downtimes would line up with their burst windows. I didn't say that these were non-factors, but DRK wasn't the outright superior MT just because it was a stronger tank. It mostly was because of how shitty PLD was and how DRK needed the MT spot compared to WAR. Double-WAR was definitely a thing for some statics back then despite the LB penalty. It just wasn't optimal because DRK MT could bring a bit more DPS in some fights and old Reprisal + old Delirium (in case of no MNK) that could be stacked with old Path for more raid utility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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06-09-2019, 06:40 PMJeeqbit
If you don't like DRK, you don't have to play it.
AoE in 5.0 looks interesting, something like:- Abyssal Drain + Salted Earth + Carve and Spit + Living Shadow (weave in when possible)
- Flood > Unleash > Blood Weapon -> Stalwart Soul > Flood > Unleash > Flood > Stalwart Soul > Flood > Unleash > Stalwart Soul -> Flood
- Delirium > Quietus > Quietus > Quietus > Quietus > Quietus > Quietus -> Abyssal Drain?
- Unleash > Stalwart Soul > Unleash > Stalwart Soul > Flood > Unleash > Stalwart Soul > Unleash > Stalwart Soul > Unleash > Stalwart Soul
- Quietus > Quietus -> Abyssal Drain?
- Unleash > Blood Weapon > Stalwart Soul > Unleash > Stalwart Soul > Unleash > Stalwart Soul
- Quietus
- Unleash > Flood > Stalwart Soul > Flood > Unleash > Flood > Stalwart Soul
- Unleash > Salted Earth > Stalwart Soul > Flood > Repeat from Delirium.
While it can be summarised as using oGCDs including Flood of Shadow whenever they are up, using the gauge and Delirium on Quietus when available, and otherwise spamming Unleash -> Stalwart Soul, the point is that it seems deliberately inconsistent unlike PLD because of factors like Delirium and Blood Weapon having different cooldown times.
It will be challenging to use TBN if you just bust all your MP on DPS right away, so it'll be on you to only use enough to keep MP from capping and keep Darkside up.
Keeping up Darkside will become challenging if you intend to use TBN (you will have to use it correctly and not let it expire). A few TBNs expiring without mitigating anything instead of Shadow being used will mean Darkside inevitably expiring.
DRK has all the cooldowns it needs, so Dark Mind is just a for-fun buff. It's part of your role to try and identify when an enemy uses magic, and use Dark Mind for it. If you bother with this, you get to save a generic cooldown for later.
It looks more well thought out than everyone thinks. -
06-09-2019, 07:12 PMFreyyyThis is such a shitty statement to make. Most of us who are complaining about 5.0 DRK played the job because they enjoyed it as it was (mostly HW's iteration) in the first place. The job's playstyle keeps getting butchered expansion after expansion since its release and it's no longer enjoyable to us, and you're telling us that we should just stop playing it and go main another job ? What the hell ? What if DRK used to be our favourite by far ? What about the people who actually don't like anything else despite having tried everything ? (I'm not one of them, I enjoy all tanks and a lot of other jobs too, but some people are like that). What about people who love the aesthetics of the job and want it to be back to its more enjoyable state so that they can keep being an edgelord while still having fun ? We love DRK, we want it to be good. We don't want stop playing it because it feels like shit and then move on to another job. We want THIS job to feel as good as it used to feel because WE were playing it since the beginning and loved it. You're reminding me of people telling other people who complain about some things in the game (like formula becoming stale etc) to stop playing the game and find another game. If we're criticizing something, it's generally because we love it and want it to be good. If we didn't like it and thus didn't care, we wouldn't be complaining in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
Still looks worse than HW or SB AoE. On top of that, we aren't complaining about AoE that much since it matters a lot less than boss fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
No it won't be challenging at all. Rotations have been mathed. You'll just blow everything at the start and spam Souleater the rest of the time without spending MP for almost a full minute. It won't ever overcap since the regen is very slow. Darkside will stay up since it lasts for 60 seconds. TBN is a non-issue since it just has to replace an EoS at some point if there's a tank buster and you get it back when it breaks. You simply wouldn't use TBN outside of tank busters because of its high risk of not breaking. It's high risk 0 reward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
It won't become challenging since you won't use it outside of it being guaranteed to break for the reasons above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
We aren't complaining that much about CDs. It's about the feel of the job. It's really not that well thought out when you compare it to what the other tanks have. It's just there to give the job a fake flavour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
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06-10-2019, 12:25 AMshao32AoE 5.0 is bad, it's literaly the same rotation that the single target rotation sustituting souleater combo with stalwart soul combo, edge to flood and bloodspiller to quietus but with less buttoms since the AOE combo have only 2 skills and the rest is oGCD until delirium come and then just spam quietus, compared to know that the AoE rotation have a delightful sinergy you have to think and it's so rewarding to use and now will become 1-2 1-2 1-2 1-2 all day with a new sustitute of dark arts spam and inner release.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
DRK generate so much MP that you literaly overcap the darkside timer all the time, the streamers that play it say it's brainless easy you don't need to think about it, mrhappy in particular say it's so easy you can go the kitchen and come back, using TBN dosen't matter since the cost of the skill will be redirected to a free edge or flood when used properly, basically it's dosent interrup the amount of edge/flood and ends being used like as a regular CD, the diference is TBN it's far less efective against anything that's not a TB or a crow of adds and waste 500p in the process if you fail, and even if you constantly mess up with TBN you will have enough natual MP to keep darkside.
apart i respect any opinion i hope you understand nobody want to see his favourite job becoming something that is not fun and im not talking about numbers, see BRD in 3.0, MCH in 4.0, WHM 4.0, ect ect, the diference is DRK came from a perfect, fun, deep and engaging play style everyone love to this.... thing, simple, boring, a rework that extirpates everything what we love about DRK, so think if you fav job get ripped like that how you will feel. -
06-10-2019, 02:46 PMWhyAmIHereyes, it looks so interesting. Oh hey a pillow! zZzZzZzQuote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
It's bad enough that DRK's AoE combo is the first thing we get... at 72. EVERY OTHER TANK gets their AoE combo's at 40. Yes, we get Edge/Flood at 30/40 respectively, but DRK's AoE while syncing down makes no sense. Stalwart is also our only AoE method of MP regen without spending blood weapon. which can only be done every 60s. Syncing down as a DRK felt bad all of 4.x. 5.x is only going to make that worse.
Yet again, more "...at a cost" for DRK what does nothing for gameplay and just for "character lore." Instead of having Unleash combo into AD and making stalwart soul another kind of ability, DRK gets shafted. -
06-10-2019, 04:06 PMKabooa
Delirium needs to not be Inner Release.
Living Shadow badly needs interactivity.
Darkside management shouldn't be braindead.
Other than that it should be fine. -
06-10-2019, 06:09 PMNolagamer
I really dont think they can actually fix Drk as the way players would want it to be.
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06-10-2019, 07:13 PMshao32They could, they literally waste the best chance to make DRK great and fun again and now we are gonna be stuck with this skill set for 2 years bcs they show incompetency and didn't listen our feedback when they redesign the job again and again and again, like if DRK players opinion and feedback doesn't matter for them like how they ignore our feedback for more that 1 year in SB, this redesign in a backstab on us we love the job and his original iteration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nolagamer
In not insulting the Devs, I know they work harder for us but this, this is the first time I see a huge disconnection between the devs and the playerbase.
I'm gonna be realistic, they are not going to remade DRK again and all the new players that going to jump to the job bcs poster boy saddly will never know how fun DRK was and are going to get complacent about it, but I wish... No, I officially request to the Devs to repurpose some skills some skills at minimum like they did with WAR 2 years ago.
Fix living dead, please complete repurpose delirium and please adjust our gameplay around darkside, let have Dark knight some dignity for the love of god. -
06-10-2019, 07:43 PMTintI mained WHM before I switched to DRK... c.cQuote:
Originally Posted by shao32
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06-10-2019, 07:54 PMNedkel
I still can't understand why they keep living dead and delirium, its two the most useless abilities DRK have.
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06-10-2019, 07:56 PMshao32Yeah indeed WHM suffer for the addiction of mechanics that offer nothing and the healer balance was a mess BCS they didn't listen but right now the new DRK status it's a clear case of involution pretty severe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tint
Equally bad to the WHM case I just claiming Devs are getting new levels of disconnection with the player base specially after years of DRKs claiming the HW iteration come back.
I feel sorry for you jumping from WHM to get in to this mess, at least you won't miss much past DRK. -
06-10-2019, 08:30 PMQuor
Any speculation before things are released is just that; speculation.
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06-10-2019, 09:27 PMTheForceAlthough this is true, you can't ignore the fact that what we've seen thus far will be the basis that the devs will be going off of. There might be soe minor tweaks here and there come launch, but nothing radical. And tbh, I'm worried because DRK just isn't where it needs to be right now. I'm still hoping that I'll be pleasantly surprised when Shb drops though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quor
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06-10-2019, 10:41 PMWhyAmIHerepotencies? you'd have a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quor
rotations? nah.
fight mechanics? sure, we know nothing about what fights will include.
META? Kinda. -
06-11-2019, 12:32 AMKreyd
It's probaply a crappy concept, but i tried to build the "ressource management" and "Living Shadow should be something you work with" complaints into it.
Scourge
Weaponskill
Combo Action: Syphon Strike
Deals damage over time to the target, slowly draining hp, mp and blood to the DRK.
Blood Shadows
Flood/Edge of Shadow now create also blood.
Enhanced Blackblood II
Trait
Bloodgauge can be stored up to 150.
Darkside
Trait
While in battle "Darkside" is active slowly draining blood from the Bloodgauge.
Living Shadow
Trait
While your Bloodgauge is at 50 or more your Living Shadow becomes active, fighting your target by your side.
Blood Revenge
Ability
Can only be executes when Living Shadow is active.
Consumes all blood from the Bloodgauge, letting you and your Living Shadow execute a simultanious attack.
Potency increased the more blood is used.
What do you guys think? -
06-11-2019, 01:31 AMJonnycbad
Living Shadow, for all intents and purposes, is a 17 second DoT with a fancy animation. It doesn't tank any hits for your, or TBN anyone or anything. The sad part is, the duration is 24 seconds but with the chest-clutch->Fray summon->Fray flexing->Fray pulling out sword animation, he doesn't even start hitting the mob until 17 seconds.
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06-11-2019, 02:21 AMWhyAmIHerejust like DRK's whole identity: all flash but little substance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad
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06-11-2019, 02:24 AMKabooaLiving Shadow now attacks as soon as it's out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad
Living Shadow duration reduced to 18 seconds. -
06-11-2019, 02:30 AMTouchandFeel
While potentially confusing at first glance, there is actually a benefit to Living Shadow's delay that I go over in another thread here
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06-11-2019, 02:39 AMKabooaI'm generally in favor of delayed burst abilities. We need more of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
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06-11-2019, 08:49 AMTheForceCouldn't have said it better myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad
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06-11-2019, 09:24 AMguardinQuote:
Originally Posted by TheForce
it feels and looks amazing until the completely stole the identity by getting rid of dark arts which is what made DK well dk. now its more like a dark version of gun breaker but it would be fine with dark arts