About the whole '' shorts and skirts '' thing...

This is more or less just me venting a bit, but...
Why is it that people always ( including in real life ) talk about this as if the masculine is the inherent default?
It's really driving me insane, whenever there's female gear that has shorts and skirts there's people throwing tantrums about it, people that want the female characters to wear pants instead and they talk about it as if pants are the inherent default and that anything else is '' abnormal ''.
I mean, if I play a female character then I could just as easily argue that the female version is the default... Because to me it is, and in the end of the day your perception of this is entirely based on the lens from which you perceive it.
The same way that the female body is the default to a woman, whilst the male body is to a man ( yes, I know about different gender-identities. I am simplifying things ).
Men used to wear skirts historically, if men still did then they'd be regarded as the default and normal.
Why should it purely be defined by what men do?

I do see people saying that they want it to be a choice that you get presented with for both genders, and I do agree with that.
If you're one of those people then I am not talking about you, I do agree with you that more options is a good thing.
Like if someone playing a male character wants to wear a skirt then they should be able to imo. Or even '' boobplate '' I think.


I mean I don't want to get into a gigantic discussion here about armor design historically, but armor has always traditionally been designed after the masculine norms of the time, and that also applies in many ways to how it's designed in fiction today in ways which wouldn't be regarded as masculine back in the day.
Shadiversity on Youtube did two videos exploring this which were pretty good and he's absolutely right.
Armor never has been '' agendered '', it always revolved around masculinity based on the time period and it still does.
And if women fought to the extent that armorsmiths would actually take them into consideration at all, then the armor that they wore would change accordingly.

But people throw tantrums if there's even slight boobplate and act as if it'd literally kill the wearer ( meanwhile, our ancestors wore armor that was shaped like corsets because narrow waists used to be regarded as masculine, which by the same logic would be 100 000 times more deadly. Not to mention huge plate bulges shaped like a penis... And the most popular dagger at one point was quite literally shaped like a penis... People severely underestimate how effective armor was and how much people went out of their way to '' style it ''. There was that one blog post and people just jumped aboard the '' hurr durr boobplate is dangerous '' train which is just wrong... It's even a thing in HEMA, fencing and other different sports ).
I am not saying that people have to like it, I am moreso talking about how people don't even really seem to even acknowledge that they're essentially just trying to push women into adapting traditional masculinity and are probably not even aware that what they regard as '' default / non-gendered '' is in fact VERY gendered too and specifically designed for men with masculinity as the framework.

Again, I absolutely do agree that more options is a good thing.
And I am not really interested in this whole discussion about '' sexualization ''.
In the end of the day I do think that a lot of it is quite puritanical and that people wouldn't react to it if it was for male characters which is just blatantly sexist imo.
But if people genuinely feel the same about a man in shorts as they do about a woman in shorts then that's fine I guess, so long as they don't try and dictate what I get to wear.
I do know that some people will jump into that discussion, but I think that it's an entirely different thing.
And I do agree that it often swings in one way more than the other. Personally I'd like to see more of it for male characters and not less for female characters, but that's a preference thing.
But mostly I am just in favor of options that allows everyone to create what they want.

What I am talking about is how people attribute normality to masculinity and abnormality to femininity ( or what they perceive as feminine, I think that the shorts thing is especially ridiculous in that regard because men wear shorts too... ).
And I mean in the end of the day I think that people are way too quick to attribute '' sexualization '' to pretty much anything having to do with the female form...
To me it's more about aesthetics and what I think is cool, I genuinely don't understand at all why some people think that boobplate = sexy.
It's steel.... :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:
To me it just looks way cooler and I think makes my character look more powerful and badass.

More options for people to express themselves no matter what they play is a good thing imo, sitting around just shitting on anything '' feminine '' and arguing about this as if the masculine is the norm and default that the feminine needs to pander and adhere to on the other hand is just wrong imo.

/vent, lol...
I am talking about people who always attribute normality and the default-status to whatever the conventionally masculine thing is.
We see this in real life too how anything feminine gets attacked by a lot of the same people and is attributed with weakness and victimhood.

Btw, this is moreso just me reacting to some posts I read about the Bard artifact gear in Shadowbringers.

I think that some people are approaching this with their complaints in a way that I find very questionable.
I am all in favor of more options.
But I do think that people perhaps need to take a step back and ask themselves why they always look at what men do and wear as '' agendered '' and the default...
And anything feminine or that women do and wear as '' the other '', and abnormal...

Maybe it's just because video games is so dominated by men, and so the discussion surrounding it always ends up being from a traditionally male lens.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about shorts in the game?

When you're talking about boob plate, do you mean armor that protects but also emphasizes feminine features? Or do you mean stuff like the dragoon/ninja af1 sets on females that expose the belly/cleavage respectively? The former I'm fine with. The latter for me is largely depending on context.

More often than any complaint about shorts I see is actually people complaining about male healers and casters having to wear 'dresses' as if robes were inherently feminine.

Oof ouch. Much rambling, terrible formatting.

I tried, but I was unable to understand what you were trying to say.

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Originally Posted by Raldo

Oof ouch. Much rambling, terrible formatting.

I tried, but I was unable to understand what you were trying to say.

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They're saying that masculine armour is not the default, nor is feminine armour, and how skirts and shorts are not entirely feminine, and people should complain less about "feminine" looking armour, such as shorts, skirts and boob plates.
Not hard to follow at all

The OP is pretty rambly so I'm not gonna try to address the whole thing, but at least to this point:

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Why is it that people always ( including in real life ) talk about this as if the masculine is the inherent default?

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In this game at least I think it's not too insane to say that SE *does* think of the male as the default in most cases for gear that looks different on each gender, because the actual icon used for the gear doesn't change even if the armor does, and I don't think I've ever noticed a gear icon that favored the female appearance over the male one (example, Faire Joi/all the Shisui pieces). I think it's very reasonable for people to assume that the armor appearance that matches the icon's picture is the default appearance.

.. Most of us are Male and from NA. Statistically. So of course most of us are going to consider western male styles to be "default".

For me, it's not that one or the other is the 'default', it's that the fact that the male and female versions of the same set are often so different that upsets me. I love shorts and skirts, especially the sets that include stockings with them, but every time a set comes out with that design, the male version ends up having generic slacks instead. I've seen players with female characters complain about the opposite; many, many sets that offer full coverage on a male character show off a lot of skin on a female character.

The obvious solution to make everyone happy is to have the sets look the same on males and females - if males get slacks, females get slacks; if females get shorts or a skirt, males get the same shorts or skirt - and just alternate between these two options as they design gear. This way everyone gets the same options, and if someone doesn't like the option that comes with a particular set, they can just glamour over it because, well, they have *options*.

Can someone explain to be what OPs point is? I read it 3 times now and it seems more like a brainstorming session than an actual text explaining something...

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Maybe it's just because video games is so dominated by men, and so the discussion surrounding it always ends up being from a traditionally male lens.

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Yes there's so many males playing videogames, that as the legends tells, Men are born under ground!!

now, seriously i really dont understand why some "MALES" complain about girls playing videogames! Some girls play game so well that with no doubt they are better than some "guys".

A man its nothing if he dont have a good woman by your side.

I have no idea what OP is ranting about but he is 100% right.

My issue with "men get pants and women get shorts/skirts" is not about wanting my female character to wear pants. It's about wanting to not be given "the sexy version" of every outfit when the (perfectly unisex) male version is what I want my female character to wear.

I like skirts. They're feminine. They're pretty. They look glorious when casting spells.

What I don't like is that the vast majority of female skirts come with nothing underneath. You can't be "feminine" without giving everyone a chance to see your virtual underwear.

It's particularly frustrating when the male version also comes with a skirt (that male characters will probably grumble about) but gets pants underneath. I want those pants with the skirt attached. I want to use the pretty skirt that came with my summoner relic gear, and the boarskin tank skirt, and the one from the WHM AF2 that might be one of the few salvageable pieces of that outfit.

But no, have a miniskirt (or maybe some frilly undies). That's how we gender-differentiate our gear.

THAT is what makes me complain on the topic - it's not that I want less skirts, I just want more that I'm happy to wear.

(And okay, occasionally pants - because those bard AF3 pants are gorgeous and I want them instead of the short-shorts that can't even be seen under the coat.)

I'll just leave this here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G59JnM4JKNQ

iam more annoyed that all the clothes in this game just feel "samey" to me. thats why iam so happy with my makai short (mnk)

more gawn pls? short jacket? aside from leonhart jacket. a coat?

I think I know what is trying to be said. OP seems to be asking why the society deems pants as the default masculine option.

Pants are usually the masculine option, and not female types, like skinny Jean's, but Male types Like Levi's etc. Like in the 90s if a girl wore work pants she was a tomboy, or why women wore pant suits (Google that hot 90s trend ladies). It was done to appear masculine.

Now are we asking why society seems pants masculine and skirts feminine?

I have a dream, that one day, we dont get triggered by every and anything.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

My issue with "men get pants and women get shorts/skirts" is not about wanting my female character to wear pants. It's about wanting to not be given "the sexy version" of every outfit when the (perfectly unisex) male version is what I want my female character to wear.

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This.

I don't mind skirts and other feminine outfits in general. A lot of them look really good. I just wish it wasn't all short skirts and skimpy outfits all the time. I can't even count the number of times I've examined a male character with a really cool glamour, tried it on myself, and walked away disappointed that I only get a "sexy version."

the answer is obvious. People that plays this kind of games likes them to watch shorts and skirts on their PJ. Yoshi hear -> Yoshi implement (except balancing de jobs).

From my side... aesthetic matter. And I've already heard woman having complexe if a crossdressing man appears nicer legs than she has.

That's not always "education", contrary to what the "no gender" militant would like to make us believe. Personal tastes matters too.

For me its the devs themselves that perpetuate the stereotype in this game, of pants for males, skirts for females and i believe its down to playing it 'safe' due to how many countries they sell to. It is boring but it is 'safe'.

It also doesn't help the devs have a preferred gender they like to design around when they come up with concepts, if for tanks it is usually males before females, healers its usually females before males, dps is dependent on the job which order they go in, and for general they usually go females before males due to there being more female characters than male characters. Its stereotypes that are affecting other stereotypes its ingrained in society and it will be nigh impossible to change it certainly not in this game's lifespan.

What doesn't help is that genderlocked gear was imbalanced for awhile towards females, the bunny suits and the thavnarian bustier were female exclusive (bustier still is) yet no male equivalent exclusive was given for any of them (the thavnarian bolreo was able to be worn by everyone), this was where i noticed the complaints about glamour getting louder they were always there but this point is when i really started to notice it. Now fortunately they seem to make a male exclusive with a female exclusive most of the time but sometimes the genderlocked gear is just weird to do (flower crown etc).

Edit : Wow i ranted XD

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

For me its the devs themselves that perpetuate the stereotype in this game, of pants for males, skirts for females and i believe its down to playing it 'safe' due to how many countries they sell to. It is boring but it is 'safe'.

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I see you havent seen the fanfest, cause they explained how gear is chosen, the devs dont choose the design. An artist makes different designs and yoshi picks what he likes and then gives it to the devs and they create the gear that was chosen. we cant blame the devs for everything thats in the game.

I'm sort of like Iscah, but let me explain why I personally prefer trousers on my character.

First of all Females mostly get skirts or super short shorts. I'd like some more variety like... anything other than booty shorts for females. Can i get like a thigh or knee or even chin length shorts/trousers? Some jobs barely have any options regarding those lengths.

Secondly, skirts and shorts scale horribly on tall races like Roes. They suffer from what i call the "A shape syndrome". In other words they go at that angle and physics be damned. If you're tall it literally sticks to that angle and never changes. One of the pvp robes managed to tackle that somewhat but guesss what... they rarely use that model as basis for other robes / skirt shaped stuff for some reason.
To show you what I mean...

A shape syndrome on tall races:
https://images2.imgbox.com/57/64/RuNlcJNH_o.png

This is referred as by me and my friends as the "tent" armour. they like to sit on my feet.

Booty shorts on tall races? It basically looks like underwear. I see it on cat and lizard girls and is this nice mid thigh length. If I try it on? Crotch level shorts.

Really short skirts? Looks okay on cat and lizard people. I can see my virtual underwear without tilting the camera. I just needed half an inch to cover that up but I guess that's too hard.

Hopefully if Viera are popular enough, people will complain enough because there's no way SE will listen to Roes and Elezen regarding this. We have been complaning for YEARS.

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Originally Posted by YatoShishi

I see you havent seen the fanfest, cause they explained how gear is chosen, the devs dont choose the design. An artist makes different designs and yoshi picks what he likes and then gives it to the devs and they create the gear that was chosen. we cant blame the devs for everything thats in the game.

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Artists and Yoshi P are part of the development team for ffxiv are they not, their positions are different but they are still part of the same team/division of SE so the devs do decide what goes in the game (Yoshi more specifically but even he can get overturned as was the case with Lakshmi's music) and generally(please correct me if i'm wrong as not an artist but have friends who are) when you present pieces to your boss/employer your happy with the base concept you may like to tweak things but the core design you tend to be happy with at that stage, so yes the devs do perpetuate the stereotypes but i do feel this out of playing it safe not because they don't want to.

I'd rather not have a boobplate on my armor, thanks.

Then you have the hot mess that is the Quintrell set where you can only tell you're wearing the skirt because it comes with stockings as the top has a skirt of it's own that over writes the actual skirt. I don't think I saw anyone break down the whm lv 80 pieces as that's one of the long time offenders of you call this a skirt when it shows shorts or pants which the guys will get. I do know that the guys get a full gown for the body and the ladies get a robe that has a cut away that shows a dress's skirt that goes down to the knee which is probably still part of the top some stockings and princess shoes. The big fear being that we'll get hopefully not get what we got this time which was some fancy underwear or the Eternal Sailor Moon skirt that barely covers the butt even on a lala, but a nice skirt that is the same length as the dress.

You can then go and look at the lv 80 blm set for the ladies what we can see is a top that seriously stops right at the bottom and yes it's a cute style and many might even like that style but the bottoms are so short you can't really see them. Meanwhile I want to say the guys get a whole different style and a fear me I'm going to burn you with a huge fireball kind of look. I do like an occasional skimpy outfit, but when it feels like it's the default for just about everything it makes me groan.

Japanese game, Japanese gender ideals used for outfit design. As a business I imagine SE monitors what sets are popular (which are usually short shorts, frilly things, etc) and makes more of that to please the majority.

OP, you should have seen the forums back in 1.x days when they revealed the first AF and the female DRG armor had a hole to show the stomach..heh.

Hmm,

I think the nuance here is they should provide both options (skirts and shorts), which most people are a-ok with. The complaint about women gear having attributes that are more culturally feminine (most notably, things that show off or extenuate parts of the female figure) I think is a misguided one. As the OP points out, saying that 'gender neutral' = shorts isnt correct, as thats more culturally masculine. In any case, there does seem to be fringe extremes who think that shorts/skirts of any kind, or showing off women as being sexy/attractive is misogynistic; not realizing that female players actually have their own tastes, and may want to glamour anything form being more masculine to Cute to Sexy. I think that view quite literally a short sighted view that takse to much liberty with what they think other people want.

You dont like shorts/skirts, and want your female to dress masculine, there are plenty of options for that. In fact, its easier to argue that in FF, you have a broader variety of styles and glamour for women than you do men. But I think people should lay off the outrage about female armor aesthetics. Give everyone the options they want, and leave it at that.

I despise the short shorts. I despise the miniskirts. But I'm okay with them being there, because a lot of people do like them. But that's often the new look for ladies. Here! more short shorts. Here! Have another miniskirt. You may have trousers, but they will seem strangely tailored. Or, if they seem to work as a decent pair, there's only one or two pairs of shoes that work with them (hello Bard ARR artifact trews. I love you, but by the gods I wish I had a pair of ankle boots which aren't the EB ones that work with you without clipping).

I love the long skirts where they occur, but object to not being able to wear at least a pair of tights under them. Some outfits, like the High House bustle (I love bustle, I want more), work as they're ostensibly just tops, but it doesn't work on all my jobs or locations, and can look a little too stuffy. The Eikon culottes of healing are great too, but sometimes they look a little too full (though I'm using them with the sky pirate coat on my WHM right now).

What I really want is for the plain long skirt (my favourite) to allow tights. It's literally the only thing I'd really ask for, even though there are a few other things which would be nice extras too. I'd give cookies, cakes, the crochet stuff I make for a living, whatever to have this tights with the skirt. I'd use it everywhere, teamed up with the Hannish shirt. I'd never need another skirt, and there could be all the booty shorts in the world thereafter. I mean, I do use the long skirt and Hannish shirt look anyway, but try to avoid climbing ladders as I have my standards. Even some mounts are out of the question if the wind is blowing too strongly. :rolleyes:

The Riviera dress, being the next nearest thing, only works for a few looks, as the waistcoat can't be dyed and I don't always want off-the-shoulder (though it's the look of choice for when I'm RDM... which is about never at this point. And I lost the hat to stupidity). I like most of my things to be blue, and I can't have the red waistcoat on everything because it just does not work for my aesthetic.

I love feminine things, but not things that show too much skin, or are girly girl (like that frilly dress of my nightmares) and I don't want to dress my proxy like a man either. Things which show shape and not skin are great, but I would actually like a v-neck or scoop type top to show a little cleavage (not the whole bra) when I feel like changing from the autumn shirt - or just the waistcoat on the Riviera dress to have a dye channel or two as well. Hints, not the whole show.

... and I expect absolutely none of this to occur, so :eek:

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Hmm,

I think the nuance here is they should provide both options (skirts and shorts), which most people are a-ok with.

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How about they don't? I highly doubt it's as easy as letting players toggle which gender's legwear to use. Male characters and female characters have different skeletons and animations. That means they'd have to create a pants/skirt for males, and a pants/skirt for females. For each race. That exponentially increases the amount of workload, and there's thousands of leg armors in the game.

I'd love more skirt options for guys. I play a male lalafell and like to crossdress occasionally, yet my options are a bit limited on that front. Kinda sucks, cause it appears to me that the lalafell rig/skeleton is very similar across male or female, so it shouldn't be much of an issue but I will not say anything further than this. I am no programmer so I won't pretend to know what is or isn't easy on that field.

That said, it is what it is. I've resigned myself to whatever we got (uraeus skirt and whatnot). At the end of the day, it's SE's game.

I wish they were booty shorts instead. Then you'd really have something to complain about.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

How about they don't? I highly doubt it's as easy as letting players toggle which gender's legwear to use. Male characters and female characters have different skeletons and animations. That means they'd have to create a pants/skirt for males, and a pants/skirt for females. For each race. That exponentially increases the amount of workload, and there's thousands of leg armors in the game.

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If the discussion is "Is it worth it to have it be allowed by everyone" that is something people can actually discuss the merits of. But the broad thing here is the complaint that the fact that you have females wear shorts/skirts and males wear pants is an issue. One that is solved best by giving the players the choice. That eliminates all complaints. You get to dress as you see fit. But short of that, having semi gendered clothing is probably the next best solution, because the broad player base is going to agree that youll more typically see women do shorts/skirts that show leg, while men will wear cloths that make them appear bigger.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

It's really driving me insane, whenever there's female gear that has shorts and skirts there's people throwing tantrums about it, people that want the female characters to wear pants instead and they talk about it as if pants are the inherent default and that anything else is '' abnormal ''.

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That's because in-game gear's purpose is protection, and frankly, a skirt does not provide as much protection as pants. When was the last time you saw a female soldier in the field wearing a skirt? You haven't seen that because skirts are not protective. Skirts should be cosmetic gear designed for RP purposes (like attending weddings or other fancy RP rituals). They simply make no sense on the battlefield. I think that's why people get triggered.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

That's because in-game gear's purpose is protection, and frankly, a skirt does not provide as much protection as pants. When was the last time you saw a female soldier in the field wearing a skirt? You haven't seen that because skirts are not protective. Skirts should be cosmetic gear designed for RP purposes (like attending weddings or other fancy RP rituals). They simply make no sense on the battlefield. I think that's why people get triggered.

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To be fair, literal magic lets you hand wave away a lot of those real world practicality issues.

The thing is that whenever SE want to differentiate the gear between male and female characters, almost all of the time they default back to the "male gets pants, female gets miniskirt". I mean, I am not a designer, but I'm sure there are many other ways to differentiate the gear between male and female characters.

I'd love to have more shorts options that is not an event or a level 1 crafted gears. Hell even different style of pants would be nice instead of just generic slacks all the time.

Instructions unclear. Lala in cookpot.

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Originally Posted by Fland

The thing is that whenever SE want to differentiate the gear between male and female characters, almost all of the time they default back to the "male gets pants, female gets miniskirt". I mean, I am not a designer, but I'm sure there are many other ways to differentiate the gear between male and female characters.

I'd love to have more shorts options that is not an event or a level 1 crafted gears. Hell even different style of pants would be nice instead of just generic slacks all the time.

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Designer: "Boys get the blue one and girls get the pink one."

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Originally Posted by Hazama999

Designer: "Boys get the blue one and girls get the pink one."

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Given the archaic leanings of character speech, I propose that to be the other way around. As it used to be!

As a dude playing a female character, I rarely leave the armor "as is". And, as much as I love pixel girl booty, usually I like modest, utility looking gear for fighting than running with her junk in the breeze. The plate/tank gear I have on mine looks like it would actually protect her and it look awesome! For caster/healer, it is a bit harder to find some modest lower glamour to work with the top. The gear you get from the WHM 70 last quest looks so beautiful except with the part the middle lower is just open to the world and not like a longer skirt or something in the way. So got to find something that will match up and look better, imo.