As casters we only have four role skills. It was an obvious place for cuts as Break is irrelevant with Lucid on a 60 second time, Drain having a dead potency/heal on SB arrival, Diversion is irrelevant because of the new Emnity focused stance, and Manashift as useful as it was, will have no real place with Lucid on a 60 second timer. This leaves Erase and Apocatastasis.
Erase, although weak provides a quirky dot cleanse with a small heal on the OGCD! A HEAL FOR CASTERS ON THE OGCD. AAAHHH. It's my favorite underdog of a skill. Even if its weak I still prefer it be accessible than to have just deleted it. In this way, when I see someone at an uncomfortable level of health with an AOE incoming, I can toss it onto them to give them a much better chance of living than if I had done nothing. When I get to cleanse a dot I'm like wooooo! I did the thingggg.
Apocatastasis is my second addle! I loooove popping it just before a magic tank buster on the tank or if I see a DPS with a vuln stack or in questionable health for an upcoming aoe. Its been a solid skill, really encompassing the defensive utility side of caster since it was just a BLM only skill!
Having the ability to raise is great for progression, but hitting that raise button never feels good for anyone. It really is much more satisfying to see a player survive something from your influence as a caster than to just raise them after they die.
I know not everyone jumps for joy when they think about these skills, but I really do. I am so bummed that they are going away without any sort of replacement. I don't need any modifications to the skills, but I'd take them so long as their original purpose stays in tact. I would love you forever SE. p-p <3
------------------------------ Role skills ------------------------------Tanks (7):
Healers (6):
Melee (6):
Ranged (6):
Casters (4):
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05-31-2019, 02:35 PMZynesteDevs, can Casters please have 6 role skills like the other roles?
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05-31-2019, 02:47 PMReimmi
Apocatastasis and palisade going away are the 2 role actions i'll miss the most :( i hope they change their mind about them
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05-31-2019, 02:55 PMKurando
I still don't understand why ranged got to keep Peloton, think it's literally the only role action left over that doesn't do anything during combat. Some could say it's iconic, well Protect just got removed so I think anything goes at this stage. Bloodbath (magic variant) could have been nice as.a Caster action as well seeing as Drain no longer exists....
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05-31-2019, 04:22 PMDrWho2010
i'm fine with it. never really used Apo and Erase could never use on yourself.
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05-31-2019, 04:44 PMJandor
I used Erase now and again, was kind of niche but a neat skill nonetheless. I didn't use Apo but then again I never raided on Caster either so that's probably why, does seem useful.
On the flip side, not sure why tanks still need shirk. Tank swapping is just the tanks flipping their stance switches and the OT provoking. -
05-31-2019, 04:55 PMSingularity
Seconding this. I've saved lives with both of these skills and I'd very much like the role of DPS to not be constrained to just doing damage in the same way that tanks don't only mitigate and healers don't only heal.
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05-31-2019, 04:58 PMSaitoHikariIf you take my Peloton I will shank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurando
>:C -
05-31-2019, 06:21 PMFredco191
Wait, what the hell? Ranged Physical is losing Refresh?
What the fuc— -
05-31-2019, 06:30 PMKuroka
Apocatastasis is just stupid, it was ogcd and we could take quite the heavy lifting with it. I cant count the times i saved an weakened tank or resses dps with it...
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05-31-2019, 06:54 PMJeeqbit
I agree. For all the role actions I didn't even put on my hotbar, Erase and Apocatastasis have been. A lot of people may not use them, but you can tell the good players when they do. It shows their commitment to trying to contribute everything they can to a fight, including weaving in utility when someone has a DoT and is nearly dead, or when a tank can use some extra mitigation. Erase helps me feel just a bit like I can heal in L50 content on RDM and later just complements the ability to heal.
It's nitpicking though really. -
05-31-2019, 07:02 PMHash_BrownsNo longer will we be able to give the healers and casters MP for comms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredco191
https://i.imgur.com/N0GYvJA.jpg -
05-31-2019, 07:47 PMAllegor
Throwing an Erase, Apoc, or Mana Shift when needed felt good because I was contributing to the party as a backup support, now I'll just watch and die on the inside :'C
Also, Surecast having 120 sec cd is ridiculous given how fights that have knockbacks use them a hell of a lot more often than every 2 mins. -
05-31-2019, 07:52 PMBurningskull
Eh... if you want them you can have Foot Graze and Leg Graze... They aren't on my crossbar now and they wont be in ShB...
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05-31-2019, 07:57 PMDerio
Bring back erase at least, that helped healers out a ton.
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05-31-2019, 08:14 PMKleeya
I sure wish that not having diversion anymore is gonna be fine, but i will wait to see myself if launching several hard hittings skills in a half second at the beginning of my opener is not gonna cause some problems for the tank trying to establish his aggro. Especially if he is not good at his job, and/or undergeared compared to me.
Plus there is some cases (like in hunts) where you dont have a tank, and want to let a melee dps do the tanking. In this case i use diversion while the melee dps dont use aggro reducing skill, and it works fine. Now it will not be possible anymore.
I can already imagine me being like "Well, better do nothing during the 5 first seconds of the fight so that the guy tanking can build his aggro correctly... Oh wait, isn't that gonna put me at a disavantage if someone is running a parser ? Should i then attack since the beginning anyway ?". -
05-31-2019, 09:58 PMDeceptusHonestly those should have went to the healers as Protect and Shell. Short Def CD's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reimmi
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05-31-2019, 10:48 PMBonbori
Honestly, ranged should have lost 2 more actions (Foot Graze, Leg Graze) and healers 1 (Repose).
I cannot think of any situation in which Bind (a root that breaks upon being damaged by anything, usually your other party members), Sleep (the same except everything is immune to it to begin with) and Heavy (aka Only Relevant In PvP, what's the point of slowing down something that isn't running away?) would be useful in any existing content or incorporated in a fun way into any future content.
The only things I'm going to miss are Manashift and Refresh. It felt good being able to help out a recently raised mp-user or top the healers off in preparation for a spam-intensive phase. -
06-01-2019, 12:24 AMJBee
Think the place I've used Erase the most is The Burn - usually end up using it at least once on last boss in there to help out the healer, when running as a dps. People are always shocked when they realize it wasn't the healer that cured them, though.
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06-01-2019, 12:29 AMxbahax92
I dont think the devs consider utility of skills anymore. Its more about people that show up on forums and complain "to many skills on my hotbars, I cant handle". So instead of having more role skills or abilities in general, they try to reduce the skill bloat - by removing buffs or supportive skills like Erase and/or Apo.
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06-01-2019, 12:41 AMSaberMaxwell
In Stormblood, damage dealers had a much larger suite of options to support non damage dealers in accomplishing their roles. Helping tanks and healers tank and heal had the effect of increasing dps, so damage dealers were indirectly furthering their goals when they used apocatastais on a tank for example; it allowed them to eat a lot more tankbusters without tank stance on. Similarly with diversion allowing damage dealers to mitigate their own aggro generation so tanks could slide out of tank stance sooner and stay out longer, and abilities like addle which would mitigate raidwide damage so healers could have an easier time topping everyone up and getting back to damaging.
In Shadowbringers, however, it seems like they want tanks to become a lot more self-reliant. Defensive buffs like Shelltron and Raw Intuition roughly provide what apoc used to, in addition to having a free 20% mitigation built straight into their role. I can imagine the developers saying that an ability like apocatastasis would be unnecessary in this environment.
As far as erase goes, I don't know. I personally only ever used it in the Burn on the tank during Mist Dragon. Beyond that, I'm not going to especially miss it. There's something to be said about helping the healers by tossing that out and providing a 200pot heal, but it's probably also worth mentioning more often than not that probably caused either you or the healer to overheal.
I'll admit I have a lot of bias here too, Zyneste. I don't play casters to be a backup healer: I play casters to be the portable cannon. We'll have to see how encounter design works in Shadowbringers, but I think all the role skills we lost were going to be vestigial at best if we kept them. -
06-01-2019, 01:11 AMCrushnightnow you will know how melees have felt >:), it won't be that bad most fight designs in SB haven't been too bad with the knockbacks it will just be timing which one you want to prevent so i would see it as an added layer of complexity :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Allegor
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06-01-2019, 04:41 AMZyneste
Welp. Can't really reply to all three pages worth of replies, but most of the points are fair. If you didn't use it before though, it won't matter if its here again in 5.0. If you did use it like me, we get to keep our skills. Sucks about Palisade for sure.
Ideally they could have reworked Erase/Apoc to serve a better purpose than to just delete them, but keeping them as is, in my eyes, is still better than deleting them, if only for the caster's gameplay. RDM especially has no button bloat going into SHB having lost 5 buttons (not including drain.) If it's an issue with button bloat with the other classes, BLM for example, with the most obvious choices, I don't see why they couldn't combine scathe and Xenoglossy, when its available and combine Leylines with Between the Lines, when its up for the first 30 seconds. -
06-01-2019, 02:48 PMZynesteMuh Heart is broken too p-p </3Quote:
Originally Posted by Allegor
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07-06-2019, 06:49 PMZyneste
Realllyyy missing Apocastasis right now. Every tank buster in the EX, my brain "hears" that iconic Apoc animation noise. p.p </3
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07-06-2019, 07:08 PMAlistaireQuote:
Originally Posted by Kurando
Protect probably got removed because it could be modified to be automatic. No need for an action that can just be replaced by tweaking defense values, and doing so makes it better for people just raised and for healers to not need to recast it. -
07-06-2019, 07:19 PMOskarXCI
I understand and glad that Tactician and Refresh are gone. Not so with Apocatastatis and Mana Shift. I used them on a regular basis and it's a great way for casters to contribute to the party. I would be totally fine if they brought them back but nerfed both to 10%. Healers would certainly be happy to have another 1000 MP transferred from caster party members.
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07-06-2019, 08:22 PMZynesteTBH I'd be fine with letting manashift die, since refresh was also removed. SMN/RDM just don't have the mp economy to support it after all the mp cost increases and loss of Refresh from ranged, even with the buffed lucid, dying or two raises within 4 minutes can leave you changing your playstyle to accommodate your lack of mp.Quote:
Originally Posted by OskarXCI
BLM could handle it for sure though.