PvP & MMORPG's: Balance

So, Yoshida wanted us to talk about PvP but there is no proper tags for it yet. Hopefully these will do.

What I want to talk about is PvP balance. PvP in MMORPG's has always been quite a hopeless concept for few important reasons:

A) The outcome of the encounter is not determined by merely player skill, but factors such as player equipment, level, skill set-up and class. As the most important thing about PvP is balance, the core nature of MMORPG's (freedom) is in conflict with a fair PvP setting, as the fact is that the more freedom you give to the players, the harder it is to control that the encounters are fair.

B) PvE has different rules and allows for more freedom. MMORPG's in general have been designed with PvE in mind, first of all, because of the freedom they offer.

With these observations as the basis for the discussion, I would like to present some feedback regarding what Yoshida could- should do, if he wants to make sure that the PvP environment is fair and just.

First of all, there needs to be as few factors unrelated to player skill as possible in a PvP encounter. Nobody likes losing but everybody hates losing not because the opponent was better than you, but because he had better equipment or was higher level... or even worse, had friends helping him. This is completely unacceptable if the director wants the PvP in this game to be ever taken seriously.

Thus it should be so that in a PvP setting, equipment is purely cosmetic, and player stats are determined by the developers so that everyone is on an equal ground when the encounter begins. Further, the developers should try to make it so the players are always at the same rank (via capping the fights like in FINAL FANTASY XI, or something else). The skills in PvP setting should be balanced completely different from the skills in PvE setting. If you make it so adjusting skills in PvE changes the skills in PvP as well, one playstyle is always going to suffer because of it. Please keep them separate.

Lastly, the developers should be able to control where the encounter takes place and with what rules. This means, that no world PvP should exist, and that every PvP encounter needs to happen in a controlled environment. This way, there will always be equal number of opponents and everyone is prepared accordingly and not "taken by surprise".

Now, I also want to touch a bit on what I felt was the downside of PvP in FINAL FANTASY XI. I think there are two primary reasons for the lack of popularity for the systems after some time:

1) There were no proper incentives to keep playing after people no longer did it "for fun".

2) There was no active developer involvement after some time (Ballista Royale was great, but we never got anything like it after the first tournament sadly).

Solving 1) should be the hardest problem to tackle. As equipment shouldn't make a difference, there needs to be something else for the players to aim for. Ladder system, player titles, cosmetic stuff... there are many options, but they must not affect the balance.

Here's also an alternative to the ideas proposed above:

In the game "Defense of the Ancients", which is a PvP game, there is equipment you can buy, as well as levels and skills you can gain. Why it is balanced is because everyone always starts at the same point (level 1, no money, no equipment, one skill to use) and goes up from there. There is even some PvE involved as the "critters" you kill give you money and EXP to level up, as well as help you conquer and destroy the enemy base. This isn't true in MMO's as the players start the battle from an unfair position, with someone having better equipment or level from the beginning. You could use something like that game does to spice up the PvP as well as make it differ from the norm. If you want to make equipment matter, make it so everyone starts from an equal ground and has the same chance to obtain the equipment in the encounter, or level up, or whatever. That's one possible approach.

I kinda understand where your going with this but this kind of PvP would take way too much work and it would always have to be monitored in the end I don't think what your proposing is realistic. I think skill and equipment should matter and PvP should be in an uncontrolled environment where you can just walk up and challenge someone and to make something like this fair, is when someone challenges it will ask if you want to accept or decline that way you can check the level and gear of your opponent and decline if you know you will loose. It's as simple as that i think to have a PvP in just one place in a controlled environment is worthless and takes away from the value of PvP altogether. To make it interesting if you win a PvP match you could get to steal something from the loosing opponent or get some added sp bonus or something. I dunno there's room for speculation on the rewards but having it controlled is kinda boring in my opinion. But i salute you for putting in some new ideas.

I made a post suggesting how a sort of open-world closed participation PvP could work, but I'm not hear to blow my own horn.

You've made some good points! The only downside with equal teamed PvP encounters, is that you'd have to wait for them to fill up(I'm assuming you're familiar with WoW's queue system?) In Dark Age of Camelot, there were PvP battlegrounds, but you were free to come and go as you pleased, and I liked that much more than WoW's BGs.
I love the idea of purely cosmetic gear, I'd much rather dress my character up how I want, and be able to assign the gear stats through upgrades or gems or something. There still needs to be some purpose to gear in your PvP idea, but the "gear" wouldn't be tied to any one item, it'd just be a free-floating stat you'd buy and slap on.
Problem 1 could be solved by awarding winners a temporary reward, maybe a special dungeon that would cost X PvP points to enter for an hour? DAoC would reward the dominant PvP nation of the month with access to a special dungeon, which was pretty good leveling for mid-level characters, and housed some raid bosses also.

There's not really that much work to be done. FFXI's PvP worked like this for the most part. They simply need to do it better here.

Of course taking away your freedom in an MMORPG is bound to be taken with some negativity but its the only way to make it work. Otherwise it will be a joke at best, and not even worth implementing with more thought put to it than XI's PvP. PvP is all about fairness. If you have too many factors involved, nobody will ever get to fight anyone even "if they could choose to decline". You will always choose to decline or face an unfair battle.

I'm sorry if I'm a little harsh here, but I don't think PvP even fits in an MMO. People want freedom, PvP needs control. It's like having two magnets (how do they work??). But Yoshida likes PvP so I'm sure we'll see it. Thus it's important that it is fair for everyone. I personally liked Guild Wars approach. Level cap was 20 and gear was cosmetic, so everyone had a fair chance.

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There still needs to be some purpose to gear in your PvP idea, but the "gear" wouldn't be tied to any one item, it'd just be a free-floating stat you'd buy and slap on.

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That sounds good indeed! But I think both you and the opponent should have an equal chance to acquire that free-floating stat, maybe even so that it is temporary and acquired within the battle. It's easy to make the scale tilt towards one or the other, that's for certain.

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Problem 1 could be solved by awarding winners a temporary reward, maybe a special dungeon that would cost X PvP points to enter for an hour? DAoC would reward the dominant PvP nation of the month with access to a special dungeon, which was pretty good leveling for mid-level characters, and housed some raid bosses also.

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I'm not quite sure if awarding excelling in PvP with a PvE award would be the way to go, but the idea has some potential. Most importantly there should not be a situation that those who want to PvE need to PvP to get access to something "special" as far as PvE goes, in my opinion.

PvP, at it's core, is about freedom though.
Some people want to dominate people, not just monsters. A field dedicated to slaughter is a battleground, whether or not it's an even fight, or the gear is matched. If we're only given a balanced PvP system, I'm sure those of us who enjoy it wouldn't mind.

The lack of freedom is simply to help the developers, not to just "hinder" the players. The more control they have over the players and the content, the easier it is to create content that people find fair. To make the system more free, I think it can be done but in lieau with equality. In Starcraft 2 when the battle starts everyone has the same chances to build their army and get stronger, in MMORPG this can be also replicated.. via temporary, encounter-specific ways for "leveling" and "gearing up" that reset each time the match ends. That's a way to freedom, without sacrificing equality, in my opinion!

The PvP described in the opening post is exactly that of Guild Wars. Guild Wars PvP did work because it was completely separate from the PvE. Battlegrounds had nothing to do with the PvE areas and battles were always on even grounds. To date, Guild Wars has the best implemented PvP I've seen in a game. PvP is a sport and not just mindless killing in a world. Player skill and teamwork wins over anything else.

There's plenty of games out there with world PvP. Infact, most MMO's now have open world PvP of some sort. I want to play an MMO without open world PvP and would hope that it never makes it anywhere near FFXIV. People came to FFXIV knowing that there was no PvP so I wouldn't go trying to change it into a PvP game. IF anyone came to FFXIV for PvP then they really aren't the brightest of people.

PvP will never be balanced. The bars you need to win in PvP are generally weaker in PvE. A PvP bar will beat a PvE bar. PvEers will always lose and then complain. This is how it is in all games.

ballista and brenner both have rewards and titles to earn. It was never popular cuz ppl just focused on content. The japanese do play them though at least ballista.

Sorry but if you want pvp to "massicar" or "slaughter" players. You really need to get professional help. And you take pvp WAY TOO SERIOUSLY.

those words should not be said in games like ffxi etc. Sorry when I see those it makes me uncomfortable in what the player is thinking, i mean REALLY thinking.

I personally think that PvP is something that should be last on the list to implement however having a accept/decline system could still would work and it would still be fair because a lot of things can factor the win of the battle such as physical level and how you have built your skills from other jobs. I think that as fair as it gets when it comes to PvP. And I also think that PvP should be more something for end gamers and not really for the lowlvls or midlvls but give them the option anyway.

at this moment, there's a lot of imbalanced between classes

if enable PvP now, it will anger more than half of players when they get kill

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

ballista and brenner both have rewards and titles to earn. It was never popular cuz ppl just focused on content. The japanese do play them though at least ballista.

Sorry but if you want pvp to "massicar" or "slaughter" players. You really need to get professional help. And you take pvp WAY TOO SERIOUSLY.

those words should not be said in games like ffxi etc. Sorry when I see those it makes me uncomfortable in what the player is thinking, i mean REALLY thinking.

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I'm sorry, I consider myself educated in the English language, therefore I like to use multiple words to explain the exact same thing. Does killing endless amounts of monsters to level up make you uncomfortable also? KO, kill, massacre, slaughter, murder, destroy, ravage, and so on, in the end, you're just giving a player character or monster about a few second respawn time, regardless of what it's called.

I honestly think making pvp into a "Sport" where people get preset skills (or perhaps an alternate skill tree to level up) and armor has no bearing on it(heck maybe give uniforms or something) would add a form of pvp people could be happy using without a lot of the traditonal problems with pvp.

plus gladitorial arenas i guess.

Having some kind of PvP would be nice, if only to allows us to test Stats/Weapons/Gear/etc so we know how everything really works. Getting some set formulas for damage, accuracy, WS damage, elemental attribute effects, etc...this would be a good thing. As far as the actual fighting goes. I would be up for some Ballista or Brenner. Not something I would do all the time, but it was fun when I did. (I really hope they bring Pankration to FFXIV...hehe.)

Brenner and Balista were fun, we did a couple of runs as an LS group,
putting the rdm vs the blm or drg v sam woudl have been no fun if gear,weapon and job stats had no effect!

if you decide to make your conj a healer/DOT'r and someone else makes their conj a healer/nuker in a PVP situation it should be down to the players skill to win the battle.

also if Maat had of had the same stats as me it would not of been so great to have beat him!

Does PvP have to mean this person is gonna fight this person till their hp hits 0...
Isnt it true that PvP can also mean this player will challenge this player to a game of cards.
Final Fantasy isnt popular for killing each other, but they have many differant card games.

Some people like to kill other players, cause it creates more of a challenge than the AI of the mobs. But you cant expect to get everything YOU want in any MMO. Thats why we have so many differant types of MMO's in the market. FF is popular for PvE and i hope it stays that way.

In many of my other posts, as i quote, We will just have to Wait and See what happens.

I would approve of PVP only if it was instanced / arena / event type of pvp. Having open world pvp would just make things so difficult. I mean imagine your group fighting an NM and here comes a rival ls and they wipe you out, that would just get frustrating after awhile.