True North and Positionals

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05-30-2019, 12:57 AM
Burningskull

True North and Positionals

If you are going buff True North so much why not just remove positionals and it and save a button space.
05-30-2019, 01:00 AM
Vahlnir

Positionals are tied to your abilities so it wouldn't really save button space if they were suddenly removed. The number abilities would remain largely the same. You just wouldn't have to move as much.
05-30-2019, 01:01 AM
Kurando

Positionals make the jobs, you are rewarded for being in the right places and optimizing uptime. It's not so tough to move as a melee dps so it shouldn't be a big worry, and when moving isn't an option you have True North. This isn't just a hack and slash from one place game...
05-30-2019, 01:12 AM
SerLuke

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Positionals are tied to your abilities so it wouldn't really save button space if they were suddenly removed. The number abilities would remain largely the same. You just wouldn't have to move as much.

He means it would save a button by not having True North
05-30-2019, 01:14 AM
Vahlnir

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerLuke

He means it would save a button by not having True North

It's possible to have abilities on another action bar which can be toggled on a whim. Button space is pretty manageable even now.
05-30-2019, 01:22 AM
Dzian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurando

Positionals make the jobs, you are rewarded for being in the right places and optimizing uptime. It's not so tough to move as a melee dps so it shouldn't be a big worry, and when moving isn't an option you have True North. This isn't just a hack and slash from one place game...

Except it pretty much is.
unless your really going to count half a step left and half a step right once in a while to move from rear to flank and back. as not standing in one place..

Positionals should be scrapped honestly they're boring.
05-30-2019, 01:52 AM
Nora_of_Mira

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burningskull

If you are going buff True North so much why not just remove positionals and it and save a button space.

its 10 seconds long, how is it buffed other than the extra charge?
05-30-2019, 01:55 AM
SerLuke

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

its 10 seconds long, how is it buffed other than the extra charge?

I think the Recast/charge time was reduced from 90 to 45
05-30-2019, 01:57 AM
Nora_of_Mira

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerLuke

I think the Recast/charge time was reduced from 60 to 45

ok, I thought it was already 45 but I think you're right. Either way, the 10 second window makes it very situational when you know you're going to be in a tight spot and cant hit positionals, I think this is fairly balanced.
05-30-2019, 01:59 AM
SerLuke

My bad it was actually from 90 to 45 I generally don't play melee DPS so I had to look it up lol
05-30-2019, 02:03 AM
JohnSpawnVFX

Because True North is to help with mechanics, not just sit on the same spot and ignore positionals.
05-30-2019, 02:05 AM
Andevom

I was somewhat expecting a removal in positionals myself, but more in an attempt to ease things up for the devs. There have already been numerous occasions where the team realized enforcing positional requirements would be impossible or too great a DPS loss that they simply removed them, so I took that as an indication they were making steps towards getting rid of them.

That said, I understand you gotta give jobs some variation, so it may take another overhaul before they decide on something to replace that mechanic.
05-30-2019, 02:45 AM
AxlStream

You people want even more brain dead dps players? I said it before and I'll say it again. Posutionals make the difference between good and great DPS players. No need to lower the already low skill ceiling.
05-30-2019, 03:16 AM
Nora_of_Mira

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxlStream

You people want even more brain dead dps players? I said it before and I'll say it again. Posutionals make the difference between good and great DPS players. No need to lower the already low skill ceiling.

also, it provides something I think melee dps players have been asking for a while: an indicator that you're actually hitting your positionals.

There's really no obvious way to tell if you moved fast enough to hit a positional in the middle of a fight but now you will very clearly know when you missed Fang/Wheel as your Raiden Thrust will not proc.
05-30-2019, 04:17 AM
Forben

I hope they don't remove positionals. Dancing around the boss on my monk while balancing my rotation and oGCDs makes the class more fun. If I just sit still and do the rotation, it isn't as fun to me. Yes, it's irritating to not be able to meet said positionals sometimes, but it is what it is.

If someone's not a fan of positionals, you've either the option of choosing one of the melee who has only two... or going to a ranged/caster. There isn't any reason to remove positionals aside from "I just don't want to do them," as people tend to say. Maybe the class isnt for you?
05-30-2019, 06:39 AM
Inosaska

I don't even know why they haven't removed these requirements yet as they're pointless and I've seen people flat out ignore the positional requirements all together when doing trials and dungeons even during raids so no idea why they bother to keep them in the game if players are ignoring them.
05-30-2019, 09:24 AM
Schan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inosaska

I don't even know why they haven't removed these requirements yet as they're pointless and I've seen people flat out ignore the positional requirements all together when doing trials and dungeons even during raids so no idea why they bother to keep them in the game if players are ignoring them.

Because it's literally the only thing that can be used as a measly measurement of "skill" or to be more accurate, uptime and movement optimization (which involves knowledge of the fight / having enough practice)

Look at that such big words coming from me.

Just because people are lazy doesn't meant SE should cater to the lowest common denominator although considering what I've seen today, that seems to be where we're headed towards.
05-30-2019, 09:33 AM
Reimmi

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxlStream

You people want even more brain dead dps players? I said it before and I'll say it again. Posutionals make the difference between good and great DPS players. No need to lower the already low skill ceiling.

Is it low though? i feel like of the mmos out there right now FF14 has a pretty good skill ceiling for DPS
compared to wow and eso i actually have to think with most of the dps

For example, i could go from MM hunter to arms warrior and master the spec in like an hour at most because most specs have 3-4 buttons and usually come down to generate resource > spend resource > press cds when they come off cd with no thought at all
but going from brd to ninja for example the playstyles are so vastly different it's impossible to master without playing for a while
05-30-2019, 10:07 AM
AxlStream

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reimmi

Is it low though? i feel like of the mmos out there right now FF14 has a pretty good skill ceiling for DPS
compared to wow and eso i actually have to think with most of the dps

For example, i could go from MM hunter to arms warrior and master the spec in like an hour at most because most specs have 3-4 buttons and usually come down to generate resource > spend resource > press cds when they come off cd with no thought at all
but going from brd to ninja for example the playstyles are so vastly different it's impossible to master without playing for a while

It's not because other games are simple that we aren't simple ourselves. Yes, WoW has oversimplified their things but XIV isn't much better. Once you got the mainline rotation done, it's all about when to pop CDs and when to use which oGCDs. I haven't played ESO so I can't comment on that but I do come from GW2 where things do get complex as certain skills will either give you or your allies certain buffs and although the game has some easy professions and specs, the more complex ones blows us out the water, with only 15-20 buttons.
05-30-2019, 10:26 AM
alimdia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andevom

I was somewhat expecting a removal in positionals myself, but more in an attempt to ease things up for the devs. There have already been numerous occasions where the team realized enforcing positional requirements would be impossible or too great a DPS loss that they simply removed them, so I took that as an indication they were making steps towards getting rid of them.

That said, I understand you gotta give jobs some variation, so it may take another overhaul before they decide on something to replace that mechanic.

Making specific bosses omnidirectional doesn't make things harder on the devs, so no reason to remove positionals on that front.
05-30-2019, 11:18 AM
SoulEchelon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzian

Positionals should be scrapped honestly they're boring.

So standing completely still is less boring?
05-30-2019, 03:31 PM
Burningskull

First and foremost I don't have a problem doing positionals. I just see them as pointless and punishment from the fight design. The mechanics of the fight already have players moving as is so I don't see how moving once per rotation adds anything. Also all I'm hearing on the defense of positionals is, "I want a reason to say I'm better than someone else." Doing positonals doesn't change how a boss reacts to you. Doesn't change what moves the boss uses. They don't even change what buttons you press in what order. I'm sorry, I don't see the point of them. Yes I will continue to use them as I play all the DPS jobs. However I think this is an archaic system that should be scraped.
05-30-2019, 09:13 PM
Inosaska

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoulEchelon

So standing completely still is less boring?

Umm you realize that he is playing a tank right?
05-30-2019, 09:23 PM
Dzian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burningskull

First and foremost I don't have a problem doing positionals. I just see them as pointless and punishment from the fight design. The mechanics of the fight already have players moving as is so I don't see how moving once per rotation adds anything. Also all I'm hearing on the defense of positionals is, "I want a reason to say I'm better than someone else." Doing positonals doesn't change how a boss reacts to you. Doesn't change what moves the boss uses. They don't even change what buttons you press in what order. I'm sorry, I don't see the point of them. Yes I will continue to use them as I play all the DPS jobs. However I think this is an archaic system that should be scraped.

QFT!

If positionals did ANYTHING interesting I'd have no issue with them at all. attack from the rear break a bosses tail..attack from the flank break his claw or something that actually then went and changed the fight somehow. that would be fun engaging and interesting.

half a step left for 15 extra potency once per rotation... dull boring and utterly pointless
05-30-2019, 11:56 PM
JohnSpawnVFX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzian

QFT!

If positionals did ANYTHING interesting I'd have no issue with them at all. attack from the rear break a bosses tail..attack from the flank break his claw or something that actually then went and changed the fight somehow. that would be fun engaging and interesting.

half a step left for 15 extra potency once per rotation... dull boring and utterly pointless

In this case, removing something "dull boring and utterly pointless" is just going to make things even more dull boring and utterly pointless.

And let's not pretend this isn't just a pretext because people who don't like doing positionals don't like being reminded of what they miss out by not doing them.
05-31-2019, 12:14 AM
Duskane

I think positionals add alot to some jobs
And do feel good on occasion

Trick attack as example nice getting it off feels bad when boss turns around

Monk entire purpose of its speed and flow to it so moving around the boss fits well

"Wheeling thrust" and "fang and claw" is enjoyable to me pretty much similar feeling with Monk

Samurai probably one where potionals feel meh and feels like after thought with the class to me
05-31-2019, 12:52 AM
SerLuke

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzian

QFT!

If positionals did ANYTHING interesting I'd have no issue with them at all. attack from the rear break a bosses tail..attack from the flank break his claw or something that actually then went and changed the fight somehow. that would be fun engaging and interesting.

half a step left for 15 extra potency once per rotation... dull boring and utterly pointless

Dude I freaking love fights like that, like Shinyru ex or Rahtlos I wish we had more, def more fun than positionals. I always love that kinda thing in other JRPGs too
05-31-2019, 01:20 AM
Dzian

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

people who don't like doing positionals don't like being reminded of what they miss out by not doing them.

What do you really miss out on though?
It really isn't that much in some cases..

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxlStream

Posutionals make the difference between good and great DPS players. No need to lower the already low skill ceiling.

They really don't make a difference though.. at least not noticeably so..

In the case of ninja. A player who just stands behind a boss and stays there completely ignoring positionals and only ever moves for mechanics.... What is he really going to lose?
60 potency bonus on an Armor Crush once every 30 seconds... That's effectively a whopping loss of TWO potency per second. 2!!!!
That really isn't going to do anything to distinguish a good player from a great player.

Samurai is perhaps a bit more tricky. A player who basically stays in one position the entire fight won't lose any potency but will lose roughly 10 kenki every 8 gcds.
If you then say a gcd is 2 seconds and 10 kenki is 40% of a 300 potency Shinten. then that's around 120 potency lost over 16 seconds which is what? A loss of roughly 7 PPS.

Admittedly I'm not entirely sure what that works out to as a percentage of a jobs total PPS, but I'm pretty sure its less than 2% which again isn't going to do anything to separate good players from great players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerLuke

Dude I freaking love fights like that, like Shinyru ex or Rahtlos I wish we had more, def more fun than positionals. I always love that kinda thing in other JRPGs too

Yeah same.
05-31-2019, 01:59 AM
Ogulbuk

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoulEchelon

So standing completely still is less boring?

I can see both sides of the argument. I find positional give some jobs flavor but feel they are overused in melee DPS.

However, as far as thing becoming “boring” without positional, boss encounters could be redesigned to be even more intensive on avoidance at melee range. Right now, positional requirements kinda shackle developers ability to use live-or-die avoidance requirements. It can be fine, but if it’s done too often melee DPS end up underperforming.
05-31-2019, 03:13 AM
Krojack

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

It's possible to have abilities on another action bar which can be toggled on a whim. Button space is pretty manageable even now.

Not really. You're forgetting about controller players on console.. As the game keeps growing and new abilities are added, button space starts becoming more and more limited for controller players.
05-31-2019, 03:28 AM
Kurando

We can't really use controller users as an excuse (I use it, limit is not an issue). Aside from a small number of jobs most have manageable hotbars, and with actions being upgraded/traited or being removed, if anything the new expac will open up more potential space for players.