Are the shards the twelve?

Are the shards physical gods themselves, like the twelve? If you split yourself into 13 beings, then you wouldn't be those 13 anymore.

However, if they were the 12, we would need a thirteenth, and as far as we know there isn't a 13th god.

I am by far not a loremaster or anything alike,but I think shards have nothing to do with the Twelve (atleast not in that way).

Depends, are there Thirteen members of the Twelve? Because its the Source and Thirteen Shards.

Well, there's Nald and Thal ...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualblade

Depends, are there Thirteen members of the Twelve? Because its the Source and Thirteen Shards.

---

Like Erendis said, they do separate Nald and Thal occasionally, so, yes. (Living on a Prayer makes sure to remind you that there are Thirteen marks of the Twelve in Eorzea!)

I always thought it was more 1 source, 13 shards adding up to 14 because it's... Final Fantasy 14. And nothing more to it. :)

Maybe all the gods + hydaelyn are the shards. Will we meet one of the twelve in Norvbrandt? I wonder who.

Can someone explain the connection between the two please? What do shards have to do with the twelve?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amekaze

Can someone explain the connection between the two please? What do shards have to do with the twelve?

---

I think the theory, such as it is, is that when Hydaelyn got split the 13 shards would develop their own versions of the original mother crystal and that is possibly where 'The Twelve' come from.

Originally I guess it would have been 'The Thirteen' but since the thirteenth world got really messed up and became the void maybe the thirteenth god faded away too, and also at this point Hydaelyn has eaten 7 of our gods.

While it would be neat I guess, as far as I can tell this idea is all based on nothing other than the numbers sort of lining up a bit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jandor

I think the theory, such as it is, is that when Hydaelyn got split the 13 shards would develop their own versions of the original mother crystal and that is possibly where 'The Twelve' come from.

Originally I guess it would have been 'The Thirteen' but since the thirteenth world got really messed up and became the void maybe the thirteenth god faded away too, and also at this point Hydaelyn has eaten 7 of our gods.

While it would be neat I guess, as far as I can tell this idea is all based on nothing other than the numbers sort of lining up a bit.

---

Thanks!
But it seems to me that even if it is true,wouldnt we have that 13th god regardless of what happend there in the end?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amekaze

Thanks!
But it seems to me that even if it is true, wouldn't we have that 13th god regardless of what happened there in the end?

---

Gods need worship is a pretty old trope, with the 13th starved of aether and everyone living there either dead or warped into voidsent it's likely their god, now deprived of worship and aether, would follow shortly after.

No idea how we'd know about that on the source though, considering the lack of divine intervention by any of them, and therefore have no real idea why our religion would be altered to reflect the lack of 13th god.

During the Unending Coil of Bahamut the Twelve appeared surrounding Louisoix as crystals, similar to Hydaelyn. Interesting given the gods inspiring primals do not appear as crystals, and that Hydaelyn as a crystal represents the planet itself. Raises some questions there.

Like has been mentioned, I actually wouldn't be shocked if Nald'Thal sharing a body/deity title was because originally there were Thirteen gods for the Thirteen shards, but Thal lost the Thirteenth to the Void. There are weird unaddressed links between Thaumaturges/Black Mages and Voidsent as well as Nald'Thal as a joint deity. Might not be so far-fetched that the Twelve/Thirteen are the Shards. Not sure what the metaphysics would be behind Thal merging with Nald though, in the wake of the Void happening.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaywalker

Like has been mentioned, I actually wouldn't be shocked if Nald'Thal sharing a body/deity title was because originally there were Thirteen gods for the Thirteen shards, but Thal lost the Thirteenth to the Void.

---

What about the seven lost due to Hydaelyn eating them after a Calamity?

There are only six shards left, and one of them is the void, leaving us with five really. Yet we've still got twelve gods.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jandor

I think the theory, such as it is, is that when Hydaelyn got split the 13 shards would develop their own versions of the original mother crystal and that is possibly where 'The Twelve' come from.

Originally I guess it would have been 'The Thirteen' but since the thirteenth world got really messed up and became the void maybe the thirteenth god faded away too, and also at this point Hydaelyn has eaten 7 of our gods.

While it would be neat I guess, as far as I can tell this idea is all based on nothing other than the numbers sort of lining up a bit.

---

Zodiarc Hydaelyn lost 7 times to the Ascians Machinations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jandor

What about the seven lost due to Hydaelyn eating them after a Calamity?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kidalutz

Zodiarc Hydaelyn lost 7 times to the Ascians Machinations.

---

I suppose in theory the 7 absorbed gods could still exist as part of Hydaelyn?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jandor

There are only six shards left, and one of them is the void, leaving us with five really. Yet we've still got twelve gods.

---

Do we, though? Discounting Primals, the Gods worshiped by the various peoples of the world do not seem to directly intervene in mortal affairs. The Twelve are no exception to this. There are occasional hints that they might be real, such as their apparent presence when Lousoix called upon the prayers of Eorzea to face down Bahamut - but with all the belief-charged Aether in the air, pretty much ANYTHING could have been made real at that point, while it lasted.

If the Twelve ARE linked to the Shards, it's entirely possible that seven or eight of them HAVE ceased to exist. Would that stop folks from worshiping them? I don't see why - how would the worshipers even know that their god was gone?

I don't think the Twelve are actually real. It's just what Eorzeans believe. Along with the Seven Hells and Heavens.

Hingans and Othardians have the Kami. They aren't real either. Unless summoned as a Primal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Balipu

Hingans and Othardians have the Kami. They aren't real either. Unless summoned as a Primal.

---

|The Kojin beast tribes directly go against this idea. One of the main characters in those beast tribe quests is a minor kami. And everyone pretty much takes it at face value. Even when almost everyone forgets the kami in question since one of the other characters had the same thing happen to him when he was much younger. So... something is certainly going on and people call whatever that something is kami.

In addition... the Twelve as a religious concept is very, very, very old. The Allagans were worshiping the Twelve before they discovered aetherochemistry and started on the route that would lead to them becoming aethists as a nation. In fact... in Lore Book 1 it says that religion pre-dated magic and magic started out as people praying to the gods in the 2nd Umbral Era. Magic was just when the prayers started doing something extra. The 2nd Astra Era afterwards was marked by churches and religion being the de facto government because they had all the mages (and the fire power that came with that). It wouldn't be until the 3rd Astral Era that the Allagans would decouple religion and magic from each other.

If you were to ask me who the Twelve probably were... I'd say they were most likely the first set of Warriors of Light blessed by Hydaelyn, probably before the 1st Umbral Calamity ever happened (which is conveniently before known, recorded history starts). You look at all the stuff we are capable of doing and then apply a thousand years of re-telling of our story and making it seem even more epic then it really was and I wouldn't at all be surprised if people would think we were gods.

Now that view of the Twelve not directly supported anywhere in-game, but given that each culture has its own gods and they aren't universally shared, I don't think the Twelve would be based on anything so fundamental as how many shards there is. Besides, there were thirteen shards to start with, and no one knows when the 13th Shard was Flooded with Darkness compared to the Source's history. We also have a much better explanation for why there are twelve eorzean gods in-game and it's linked to another fundamental principle. Which is that there are six aether elements and that each element has two aspects, so... the twelve elemental aspects of aether each have a deity associated with them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jandor

What about the seven lost due to Hydaelyn eating them after a Calamity?

There are only six shards left, and one of them is the void, leaving us with five really. Yet we've still got twelve gods.

---

Honestly I have questions on this too tbh. I think overall we need more metaphysics info haha. Right now I'm kind of drawing links between things that seem suspicious and like there's stuff going on, but as of this moment I don't have a full theory formulated. I do wonder if the shards are truly destroyed or just corrupted or shifted in some way. I also wonder if there's weird fusion stuff going on because again, Nald'Thal. I legit don't have a clear explanation across the board yet though. It feels like something's missing.

I will say though, IIRC there were connections drawn between Sophia the Goddess and both Azeyma and Nald'Thal in terms of iconography. I also remember reading stuff about imagery in I think Sunken Temple of Qarn and Sophia, Azeyma and Nald'Thal. Other people commented to the effect that religious figures seem to be evolving and shifting around archetypes over time, which makes sense, but I think there are holes in our overall understanding. Rn I can kind of go okay x, y, and z seem linked but wouldn't feel confident covering all aspects of that yet.