Lalafell and Dwarves... Plot Hole Potential?

As I was thinking about the First and its races, I realized that there was a bit of an inconsistency around a certain character.
First, here's a recap of what was stated about what races are called on the Source, and what they are on the First:

https://i.redd.it/z28vx1vv7sn21.png

Here, we see that Dwarves are the First counterpart of Lalafell.

We also received a sneak peek of the Dwarves:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2T1byjX0AEICIQ.jpg:small

Now, take a look at one of the Warriors of Darkness, who is from the First, as she appeared on the Source:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...CueRRTLy3fxAoQ

That doesn't look like a Dwarf to me. In fact, she looks like a Lalafell! I'm curious as to how Square Enix will manage to explain this. Here are some theories I came up with, and my thinking:

1. When the Warriors of Darkness came to the Source, they transformed into the characteristics of the races closest to their original races.
   If they all drank Fantasias, I guess this could have been possible, but it seems far-fetched. When have you seen an NPC use a Fantasia? That said, it's believed that they all changed their names to better incorporate into the world, so this isn't completely outside of the realm of possibility.
   But if they transformed during the process of world-hopping, then why wouldn't our Warriors of Light? Unless my Lalafell actually would seem to look exactly like a Dwarf, even though clearly their eyes are a lot different and female Lalafell can't have facial hair. Which brings us to the next theory...
   
2. Other races not "natural" to a world simply appear to us as the next closest thing.
   But, in the Live Letter, it was said that a Dwarf seeing a Lalafell might interpret the Lala's appearance as someone who forsook the Dwarf culture. I don't think this would have been mentioned unless it would be the case in the game when Dwarves see our Lalafell, so this seems unlikely.
3. A faction or tribe of Dwarves exists on the First who don't have helmets and beards.
   For the story team to go this route would mean Dwarves might be extremely diverse, and is a broader name for small races. But then how are all dwarves described as never being without their beards? Has this happened before? Did Lamimi do this to go adventuring, and she actually has a beard to shave? (This idea seems hilarious).
4. Female Dwarves/all Dwarves actually look exactly the same as Lalafell, and only some can grow facial hair.
   Again, I'm confused about this if Dwarves are never without their beards. Do female Dwarves just have fake beards glued to their helmets? They did mention (albeit somewhat jokingly) that under a Dwarf helmet was a Lalafell. Maybe this was meant more seriously than what was originally let on.

The Warriors of Darkness came to the Source via an Ascian method: they killed their physical bodies, and transcended worlds via their souls alone, inhabiting new bodies on the Source. The Devout of Darkness may not have even been a Dwarf on the Source for all we know.

I'm pretty sure that this method and its incongruities with our character (i.e., there's no sensible way we're physically killing off our body to get a new one) was brought up at the Fanfest or an interview at the same time, and it was mentioned we would be traveling to the First via a different method, that would preserve us body and soul.

I must have missed that then! Thank you!

I think the beast tribe Dwarves are just type of regresses Dwarves, like the fat Miqo'tes I expect to see normal Miqo'tes as well.

From our experience WoL/D were never from Beast Tribes but it could be as well that they are deemed as BT on The First while they are actually like normal Lalafells under their armour.

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Originally Posted by Greven

I think the beast tribe Dwarves are just type of regresses Dwarves, like the fat Miqo'tes I expect to see normal Miqo'tes as well.

From our experience WoL/D were never from Beast Tribes but it could be as well that they are deemed as BT on The First while they are actually like normal Lalafells under their armour.

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It's just a term that some cultures adopt based on their own criteria. Ul'dah began using it so that the Monetarists could effectively create a blacklist and limit trade with groups outside of their sphere, Garlemald began using it on the basis of primal summoning(I think), and I think the Encyclopedia said that the rest of Aldenard eventually adopted it using the same criteria.

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Originally Posted by "Naoki Yoshida

You’ll be seeing the Dwarves every day. Dwarves have a number of factions their tribe is divided into and they have different competitive stances towards one another and it might look like a kid’s fight from our point of view. So, you might be the person who will be between the two fires and try and make things go well. Something like that might be released in the future. We really put it a lot of effort into that when we made them. By the way, there were a lot of SNS posts saying that the White Mage from The First, Lamimi didn’t have a helmet or beard. There is a reason for that (laugh). We are filling in the holes.

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/10characters

The most likely solution to this incongruity is that, like the group adopting pseudonyms for operating on the Source, "Lamimi" just went without her helmet to blend in better.

As for the beard... well, if you take a peek at the other Dwarf image, it actually shows one such Dwarf with his helmet off... and no beard. So yeah, they are just fake beards attached to their helmets.

I'm pretty sure they actually said this would be explained in the ShB MSQ.

I'd be surprised if we didn't learn anything about Arbert and company while we're at the First when they were likely just as famed as us (Though I expect that became infamy after they unintentionally caused the flood of light).

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The most likely solution to this incongruity is that, like the group adopting pseudonyms for operating on the Source, "Lamimi" just went without her helmet to blend in better.

As for the beard... well, if you take a peek at the other Dwarf image, it actually shows one such Dwarf with his helmet off... and no beard. So yeah, they are just fake beards attached to their helmets.

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I won't be surprised if the "beards" are some kind of air filter, much like goblin masks. We also don't know much about the climate around Mt. Gulg.

From the Shadowbringers website:

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This insular tribe dwells upon Mt. Gulg in Kholusia, its diminutive people rarely leaving the community of their birth.

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I guess Lamimi is one of the rare ones, like how male miqos are supposed to be rare but you see them around as adventurers. She only joined up with the future warriors of darkness because she found Arbert dying in a ditch and saved him and fell in love with him so it still works out. Also, as the others said it looks like you missed the picture they posted during the live letter that's also on the website of a dwarf with no helmet. This brings us to your number 4 option:

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Originally Posted by ScootPatoot

Female Dwarves/all Dwarves actually look exactly the same as Lalafell, and only some can grow facial hair.
Again, I'm confused about this if Dwarves are never without their beards. Do female Dwarves just have fake beards glued to their helmets? They did mention (albeit somewhat jokingly) that under a Dwarf helmet was a Lalafell. Maybe this was meant more seriously than what was originally let on.

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https://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/lds/...7stIdGG3c8.jpg

Wait a sec. So, under their helmets and beards they are REALLY Lalafells? I thought this to be a joke from Yoshi-P like the Viangaa x'D

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Originally Posted by Kreyd

Wait a sec. So, under their helmets and beards they are REALLY Lalafells? I thought this to be a joke from Yoshi-P like the Viangaa x'D

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Nope, Dwarves are literally Lalafells. The most probable reason for the attire we "never see them without" is probably because of where they live, Mt Gulg, which is usually a volcano in some capacity. While I think they are referred to as beards, I believe we as the playerbase were told it's a scarf, just combined with the helmet and to the untrained eye it might resemble a beard from a distance. The reason for the scarf is probably, as someone indicated, to purify the air around to volcano; as there could be ash residue in the air.

In fact if I remember correctly, before the reveal, the clamoured in the audience was that the body shape looked familiar. And that, while familiar in appearance, the design didn't really resemble past dwarves. But not much speculation could be had since we got the reveal like 2 minutes in.

The thing that really bugs me with the dwarf design is that the glowing eyes under their helmets are nowhere near where Lalafells' eyes should be. If the "unmasked" picture is accurate, their entire face is under the helmet and the lights are somewhere around their chin.

It also gives the dwarves really odd proportions when viewed on their own - arms too high up near their face, and quite a long torso.

I was under the impression that the unmaked Lalafell picture was just to show that they're using the Lalafell model and are the First's Lalafell equivalents, not that that's actually what they look like and that the beards are fake.

well given this is what the dwarves in 4 and mana look like, the proportions arent that far off, also
https://gematsu.com/wp-content/uploa...19_Dwarves.jpg
the upper half of the beard being part of the helmet is an interesting way to pull off a super long beard without running into massive clipping issues youd get if the whole beard was helm or top

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

I was under the impression that the unmaked Lalafell picture was just to show that they're using the Lalafell model and are the First's Lalafell equivalents, not that that's actually what they look like and that the beards are fake.

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The slide just says it's the names that differ(the English version at least, since I can't read any written Japanese), and while we have yet to see any Drahn, there don't seem to be any biological differences for the others.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The thing that really bugs me with the dwarf design is that the glowing eyes under their helmets are nowhere near where Lalafells' eyes should be. If the "unmasked" picture is accurate, their entire face is under the helmet and the lights are somewhere around their chin.

It also gives the dwarves really odd proportions when viewed on their own - arms too high up near their face, and quite a long torso.

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If you look at the two pictures side by side you can see that the eyes do line up. There is an extra piece missing in the helmet-less picture, specifically the fake beard from the christmas event.

I must admit, I'm resistant to the notion that the Dwarves' beards being fake and/or part of their armor. They're dwarves! They deserve to have glorious beards! Sure, they can be alt-Lalafell, but let them be Lalafell that have a coveted tradition of growing beautiful, flowing whiskers! Ah, well - what will be, will be.

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Originally Posted by RenewalXVII

The Warriors of Darkness came to the Source via an Ascian method: they killed their physical bodies, and transcended worlds via their souls alone, inhabiting new bodies on the Source.

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One thing they never went into any detail about (which I found somewhat delicious): just just WHERE the bodies they came to inhabit came from? Presumably, Elidibus supplied them - but does that mean he dug up a few corpses, or that he "relieved" some living people of their bodies for the purpose? And the WoD presumably knew this or suspected it, and went along with it anyway... which isn't hard to imagine. In their desperation, they'd already resigned themselves to some thoroughly nasty business. Having fallen as far as they already had, it's not hard to imagine them seeing five additional tics to the body count as being an acceptable sacrifice...

Side thought; I guess this completely stamps out any of the "This race was created by the Allagan!" theories? For the First to have any version of any races, they'd need to have been present long before the Allags rise to power. RIP Aetherochemical Compound 123 theories.

It doesn't mean that they weren't messing around with Lalafells though. I mean we have the Anata who were around before the Allagans and yet the Allagans went and managed to make the Lamia.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

If you look at the two pictures side by side you can see that the eyes do line up. There is an extra piece missing in the helmet-less picture, specifically the fake beard from the christmas event.

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Excuse my Paint skills but roughly :
https://i.ibb.co/zVPpFLn/nxyj03zc.png

I agree with Iscah. I think they just use the same body model, but they don't have lala heads under that helmet

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Originally Posted by Nalien

RIP Aetherochemical Compound 123 theories.

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I mean, this still leaves plenty of room for the theory that Compound 123 are the RESULTS of experiments on Lalas, of course!

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Originally Posted by Mansion

I agree with Iscah. I think they just use the same body model, but they don't have lala heads under that helmet

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It's possible that the glowing eyes are decorative, and they're actually seeing out of the top part of the helmet, somehow. Still, I hope you're right - true Dwarfs or riot!

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

It's possible that the glowing eyes are decorative, and they're actually seeing out of the top part of the helmet, somehow. Still, I hope you're right - true Dwarfs or riot!

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My original "concern" was that the helmet seemed to be too narrow for a lalafell head actually, as it has an odd shape (the helmet!).

Well considering the split was thousands of years ago it is not impossible to imagine that Lalas and Dwarves aren't 100% same biologically speaking.

Also worth noting that we don't know when they were classified as a beast tribe.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

I agree with Iscah. I think they just use the same body model, but they don't have lala heads under that helmet

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It may look like it, but your images don't line up. But, this does help me see what you mean. Adjusting for the minor differences the eyes don't "line up" as expected, but the do to a degree. The glowing eyes would line up near the bottom of the models eyes, not near the center as I originally thought.

All that aside, while I don't expect them to look exactly the same, the dev's have said they are lalafells, and made reference to Lamimi, the Devout of Darkness, possible interactions between a lala PC and lala NPCs, as well as different factions of dwarves. Interactions like that can't happen if they look drastically different, sorry old school dwarf enthusiasts.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

It may look like it, but your images don't line up. But, this does help me see what you mean. Adjusting for the minor differences the eyes don't "line up" as expected, but the do to a degree. The glowing eyes would line up near the bottom of the models eyes, not near the center as I originally thought.

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What do you mean, the images don't line up? They're clearly matched - the beard is a few pixels out, enough to see the join but not enough to affect the location of the faces.

The dwarf's eyes are prettymuch where I thought they'd be on the Lalafell face: lined up with their chin, not their eyes.

If you're looking at the feet, they're unevenly placed on the original picture.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

What do you mean, the images don't line up? They're clearly matched - the beard is a few pixels out, enough to see the join but not enough to affect the location of the faces.

The dwarf's eyes are prettymuch where I thought they'd be on the Lalafell face: lined up with their chin, not their eyes.

If you're looking at the feet, they're unevenly placed on the original picture.

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The image on the right, the "Dawrf" version, is slightly smaller and a little lower than the one on the right, the "Lalafell" version. Taking those differences into account, the glowing eyes would line up with the lower part of their eyes and cheek, the image posted shows the eye directly on the cheek. I was wrong about them lining up with the lalafell eyes, but they aren't as low as others might think.

Art is a funny thing, even a millimeter difference can make something look rail thin or super thick.

But please, I admitted I was mistaken, let's leave it at that.

I think the eyes not lining up is just a design choice for the helmet and that we’re not supposed to be thinking this deeply into it. Just like how there’s a whole bunch of different hats and helmets for miqos that have our ears in different places.

I was pretty sure that at the fan fest they said that dwarves are 100% our lalafell. If not, then why would they have a helmetless dwarf on the Shadowbringers website?

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I was pretty sure that at the fan fest they said that dwarves are 100% our lalafell. If not, then why would they have a helmetless dwarf on the Shadowbringers website?

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I don't think they said they're 100% our Lalafell, they said they're the race the Firsts Lalafell became after 12,000 years of divergent evolution. They share a common ancestor, that's about it, I doubt they're meant to look like Lalafell under the helmet, that's just a design trick to save time.

From a development standpoint, they likely are just Lalafell with a special helmet that completely warps their heads; Unequip it and it'll be a Lalafell. From a lore standpoint though, they're effectively just an offshoot of Lalafell. What they look like without the helmet and beard is irrelevant, because "they're never seen without them".

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Originally Posted by Eloah

The image on the right, the "Dawrf" version, is slightly smaller and a little lower than the one on the right, the "Lalafell" version.

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I still can't see the size difference you're describing. The dwarf side is a few pixels lower than it should be, but the scale looks correct compared to the original picture.

The bottom edge of the tabard is off by a few pixels, and the base of the beard by about that same amount, and the outer 'plait' of the beard by again the same amount. That tells me the scale is consistent, or the degree of mismatch would be different between the top and bottom of the image.



The dwarf's eyes are definitely on the Lalafell's cheeks, and - if you assumed they're a different race simply borrowing the Lalafell body model for animation's sake - it changes their entire apparent appearance.

If that's where their eyes are, then assuming they have a "human-shaped" head with the eyes roughly in the middle, the top of their head would be somewhere around where the horns are on their helmet - but they're still using the body proportions designed for the Lalafell model.

Not having any visible hair to 'fluff up' the size of their head doesn't help either.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I still can't see the size difference you're describing. The dwarf side is a few pixels lower than it should be, but the scale looks correct compared to the original picture.

The bottom edge of the tabard is off by a few pixels, and the base of the beard by about that same amount, and the outer 'plait' of the beard by again the same amount. That tells me the scale is consistent, or the degree of mismatch would be different between the top and bottom of the image.



The dwarf's eyes are definitely on the Lalafell's cheeks, and - if you assumed they're a different race simply borrowing the Lalafell body model for animation's sake - it changes their entire apparent appearance.

If that's where their eyes are, then assuming they have a "human-shaped" head with the eyes roughly in the middle, the top of their head would be somewhere around where the horns are on their helmet - but they're still using the body proportions designed for the Lalafell model.

Not having any visible hair to 'fluff up' the size of their head doesn't help either.

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I wouldn't be surprised if it's just a stylistic choice to make them resemble classic FF dwarves more.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

I wouldn't be surprised if it's just a stylistic choice to make them resemble classic FF dwarves more.

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I agree. The helmet-and-beard is just a glamour.

In regards to the whole picture comparison, looking at the originals themselves, you can see from the relative heights of the eye levels compared to the near side of the axe-blade that the lalafell does indeed have a higher-eye level.

On another note, BOTH of these pictures are on the official promotion site, which I believe is more evidence that the dwarves do indeed share the same head as lalafells and it was not a joke on the devs part.

Well if it is a Beast Tribe, for me we're likely to never see anything more than these models (with a few tweaks for any kind of leader for instance), because that's how beast tribes kind of work.

So I went back to the stream and what put me on that track is what Koji says (roughly at 1:45:00 mark); "what kind of model are they using?"
I really think that the picture is just there to make the connexion between the two, as they say "Never without the helmets but it's a keynot so we can take it off".

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Well if it is a Beast Tribe, for me we're likely to never see anything more than these models (with a few tweaks for any kind of leader for instance), because that's how beast tribes kind of work.

So I went back to the stream and what put me on that track is what Koji says (roughly at 1:45:00 mark); "what kind of model are they using?"
I really think that the picture is just there to make the connexion between the two, as they say "Never without the helmets but it's a keynot so we can take it off".

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If they're identical to their Source counterpart like all the other races(based on the cinematic at least), then NPCs taking off their beards and helmets so that they can emote during cutscenes is hardly a stretch. If you have a base model that's rigged, it makes sense to use it.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

If they're identical to their Source counterpart like all the other races(based on the cinematic at least), then NPCs taking off their beards and helmets so that they can emote during cutscenes is hardly a stretch. If you have a base model that's rigged, it makes sense to use it.

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Of course but they can emote while keeping them, right? If they are a beast tribe and I guess it's not that far fetched to assume they could be the crafting beast tribe quest, we don't need deep interactions with them really.
Now they can use lalafells models and their base set of animations for anger, panick, suprise, joy emotes, and just not include anything requiring facial expressions.

I'd personally rather have a real new beast tribe with Dwarves having a proper lore of these 12 000 years from lala ancestor to dwarves (like they could not fit in mines narrow corridors with fat lala heads). Have them have their own voices, gimmicks and all.

One of the main points of the Beast Tribe quests is to make the characters and players question why "Beast Tribes" are a thing at all. All Beast Tribes have the same mental faculties as the player races do and that has gotten more and more focus as the game has gone on.

The Lalafell's being a "Beast Tribe" is just progressing that idea even further. By now, "Beast Tribes" might as well be a gameplay term for a type of daily quest system instead of an in-universe term for races that are somehow "lesser".

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Of course but they can emote while keeping them, right? If they are a beast tribe and I guess it's not that far fetched to assume they could be the crafting beast tribe quest, we don't need deep interactions with them really.
Now they can use lalafells models and their base set of animations for anger, panick, suprise, joy emotes, and just not include anything requiring facial expressions.

I'd personally rather have a real new beast tribe with Dwarves having a proper lore of these 12 000 years from lala ancestor to dwarves (like they could not fit in mines narrow corridors with fat lala heads). Have them have their own voices, gimmicks and all.

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I meant with their faces, which is what humans identify the most. The non-player races(save for minor variations on their models, like Padjal and pureblood Garleans) don't have the rigging or even polygons to do much more than lipflaps.

The standard beast tribe models have no character variation (even for the human-faced Ananta) and minimal ability for facial expressions. As an equivalent beast tribe, the dwarves don't need it either, just because we know in other circumstances they could have it.