I don't know if/how this will happen, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say at some point I bet we're going to see the Garleans accidentally or deliberately summon a primal in connection with their absolute devotion to their Emperor.
Garleans seem to pride themselves on being atheists and not getting into the primal scene. However, we know that Solus is running around causing chaos for shits and giggles. We also know Varis is essentially out to free the world from Ascians by any means necessary. Meanwhile there's precedent in Heavensward where Archbishop Thordan VII was able to harness the devotion and prayers of Ishgardians through the Halonic church to transform himself into a primal.
I suspect either Solus or Varis is going to take a similar tactic, and in so doing both temper a bunch of Garleans AND present a hell of an existential crisis for non-tempered Garleans.
Not to mention give Gaius van Baelsar an aneurysm.
If Solus specifically does this, he's probably going to be both insanely powerful and piss off every possible person in the game from Ascians to Garleans to the Warrior of Light etc. If Varis does this it would still be wild but less weird metaphysics at work.
Dunno if anyone else thinks this could happen or has similar/contrasting theories?
Prediction: Garlean Primal
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03-29-2019, 08:26 AMJaywalkerPrediction: Garlean Primal
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03-29-2019, 08:30 AMCrushnightOh they set up a potential garlean primal - the Emperor, we see if anything comes from it thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by Jaywalker
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03-29-2019, 08:36 AMJaywalkerYup! And both Varis and Solus technically can claim the title haha. Imo it seems like too juicy a potential conflict to bypass, my big question is who's going to nail the Emperor primal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crushnight
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03-29-2019, 08:42 AMCrushnightSeems like would be Solus if going to be one of the two though he may use Varis's body to be the vessel since he is the current Emperor, we may get a tragic primal of the vessel actually despises itself but forced to be an primal due to his grandfather and the fervent prayers of the EmpireQuote:
Originally Posted by Jaywalker
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03-29-2019, 09:10 AMJaywalkerOmg @ an unwilling primal transformation/primal that's basically going death-by-cop "end it please" if that happened to Varis. Good lord.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crushnight
Additionally, I'd like to invite for consideration. Shinryu and Omega basically concussed each other immediately upon conception... but imagine if a Garlean Emperor primal was more like Zenos in the sense that you lose to it a few times and escape by the skin of your teeth.
Imagine a primal like that running around wreaking havoc and amassing tempered. Imagine if it's strong upon first interaction where you lose but then the longer you take to rematch the stronger it grows. Imagine seeing a primal like that amass entire towns and rebel factions for the glory of the Garlean Empire. And imagine if the justification was "let them try to rebel against Garlemald now".
WoL might actually end up in situations of having to fight and kill armies of tempered former allies while trying to even approach the Emperor primal. -
03-29-2019, 09:45 AMGula
Well they kinda already did with Bahamut. While it wasn't your traditional willing one to manifest, Nael van Darnus and the VIIth legion were influenced by Bahamut's rage and will.
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03-29-2019, 09:54 AMJaywalkerI kind of took them as elevated tempered? Sort of similar classification to the Heaven's Ward relative to primal!Thordan, not full primals but higher status than say random Ifrit abductees.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gula
Tbh I'd love to see a little more in the way of lore detail on those cases. I get what you mean and all, but I guess what I'm referring to is more a full-fledged primal harnessing devotion to the Garlean Emperor specifically as opposed to the transformed devotees of existing, non-Garlean primals. In all technicality (despite Allagan and Garlean involvement) Bahamut would be Dravanian while Shinryu would be an Ala Mhigan/Dravanian combo, for example.
It's a solid point to bring up though, thanks! :D This does confirm that Garleans are no less susceptible to primal involvement than any other race, regardless of magical aptitude. -
03-29-2019, 03:21 PMChaseNetwork
Ceruleum is liquid condensed aether, that will readily turn gaseous if exposed to air - at least this is the largely accepted theory I've seen. So they already have plenty of it in supply all around them at any given time. The only problem is whether we consider the Garleans Atheist or Agnostic. Agnostic is more true towards the philosophy of not believing in a god, where-as atheism is a firm belief that there is no god. They are not allowed to believe in a god, but that doesn't necessarily mean they believe there is no such thing as a god. That component of faith is important, as it would be considered a direct faith in the power of the Emperor. The next question is, can Garleans summon a primal? They do not possess the ability to channel the aether, so can they actually transfer their faith to a focus? We learned this week that the limit on magic is actually not tied to the body. Something intrinsically built into a Garlean's soul is actually what prevents them from channeling the aether. (Elezenos may not be able to be used as an opposing case study, as the Resonant transfered with his soul, meaning it was a metaphysical graft/augmentation to his soul, not his body. Thus, magic may be attributed to the Resonant if he uses magic as an Elezen). From this same line of thought, I suppose this could be worked around by installing the Resonant in many devout servants of the Empire.
However, after King Thordan, this really needs to start bringing into question if the Warrior of Light may end up being host to a summoning. We are a veritable fount of aether at this point, and we have the absolute faith and prayers of "some half dozen nations" as Ser Aymeric put it. If I recall, Elidibus once stated that we are toeing the line into the realm of the gods already. King Thordan himself displayed a very valid reason for why we might even want to take a summoning unto ourselves. "I require aether. It does not matter the source." as King Thordan demonstrated that the very nature of a primal actually hard counters the eternal nature of the Ascians by consuming their aether. Furthermore, Warriors of Light taking this burden was already done, as spoken in the Warring Triad storyline. The Warriors of Light of the 13th Shard had taken on the powers of primals, and eventually grew mad in their thirst for power, eventually consuming their world in eternal darkness, and created the Void. Return to Ivalice, we learn that Warriors of Light of old had used Magicite to basically have "Primal in a Can", and become primals themselves for short, controlled spurts. The context and precendent for we as Warriors of Light currently exists, and I fully believe this will one day happen. It would work well in a Warrior of Darkness theme, but from what Yoshi-P has said about what we're exactly doing in Shadowbringers, it's easy to defer that we're just not going to be doing anything remotely "morally grey" still. So, I doubt it will happen in Shadowbringers. -
03-29-2019, 07:32 PMJaywalkerJust want to say I love every inch of your analysis here, thanks for writing in! There are elements I'm unsure about and would love to discuss, gonna mention those below.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaseNetwork
First, I do find your way of framing atheism versus agnosticism re:Garleans interesting and different from how I generally conceptualize those points. To my personal understanding, I'd classify atheism as more not believing in a higher power (how I'd classify Garleans) whereas agnosticism is doubt/uncertainty in a higher power. By connection with this, it has been established that Garleans absolutely believe in primals and that Eorzean faith has the power to create primals. However, primals are notably not the same as gods. Even in instances of beast tribes it is firmly established that primals are taken as perversions of god concepts by devotees rather than true gods themselves. This can be shown in the Vira Ananta's view of primal Lashmi, which they see as a simplified perversion of their goddess through the limited lens of mortality. For this reason, the Vira not only have zero problem with the Warrior of Light slaying the Qalyana primal--they actively endorse it. Primal Lakshmi, to them, is not only a false depiction of their goddess, she's outright blasphemous and a dangerous insult to the real Lakshmi.
If we take this concept further, primals can be taken as a form of idolatry in the sense that they twist something divine and inherently beyond mortal comprehension then attempt to force worship of a divine concept through symbols into something limited, literal, and inherently corrupted by mortal shortcomings instead. It replaces worship of the divine concept with worship of the symbol for that concept, if that makes sense. It's the difference between worshipping Lakshmi as freedom itself and worshipping Lakshmi as the most beautiful, happy snake woman ever.
(Disclaimer, I'm discussing this as someone who has studied religion outside of my gaming activity haha. In before someone says "not that deep", don't underestimate human ingenuity with this stuff! SE devs are super well read and have scattered a ton of thoughtful, intercultural religious references throughout the game. It's fine to just take stuff at face value but the lore is there and really legit.)
Anyway, back to Garleans. What I'd argue is that while they do believe in primals, they don't believe in actual gods as higher powers as per Gaius van Baelsar's massive rant on the subject in the Praetorium. He seriously does not understand what makes primals any different from gods. To his mind there is no difference. He recognizes that the idolatry of primals is dangerous literally, psychologically, and culturally. He can't understand what keeps the Warrior of Light or Eorzeans as a whole from becoming hypocrites who are no different from the beast tribes whose primals they slay. Ysayle's summoning of the false-Shiva and Ilberd's invocation of Rhalgr both further highlight that the humanoid races are no less capable of this form of idolatry compared to the beast tribes as well.
However, what Gaius misses is that it is possible to separate the divine concept from the symbol used to invoke it. I'd actually like to draw attention not only to Hydaelyn's representation as a crystal, but the fact that when Louisoix flashes back to his own invocation of the Twelve in the Unending Coil of Bahamut? All of them were crystals too. This is notable because while across Eorzea there are humanoid representations of the Twelve, none of these were utilized in this scene. I'd like to invite the possibility that we as viewers see crystals specifically because they are strange, non-humanoid, alien, and symbolize something beyond mortal comprehension. Hydaelyn is the name of the world itself as well as the Mother Goddess the WoL communes with. The crystal and how she speaks are placeholders for the very planet, and similarly when Louisoix calls upon the Twelve he is invoking life and death, navigation, fertility, destruction, industry, love, exploration, fate, etc. These concepts are not things that can be visualized in any literal sense, but they remain real nonetheless and so we are shown crystals as placeholders for them too. Gaius, however, wouldn't be able to understand the crystals as symbolic placeholders and would instead see Louisoix, the WoL, and Eorzeans in-general as a bunch of crystal-worshipping hippies if he saw that same scene.
That, I think, is the issue Garleans run into. I don't think they're capable of symbolic thought and operate on a purely literal basis. This might also be why they can't use magic. However, since primals by nature use literal thought rather than symbolic it then becomes a question of whether or not Garleans are capable of faith or belief in something, rather than belief in any divine concept. Given that Nael van Darnus was able to be enthralled and that Garleans regularly invoke the Emperor in the way non-Garleans would invoke a deity, I'd argue that if anything the lack of symbolic thought makes Garleans more likely to summon a primal rather than less. The purely literal thinking of Garlean atheism is just another flavor of the purely literal thinking that goes into primal-worshipping fundamentalists.
I'd also like to invite two questions about how and why the Resonant work, and whether that quality worked on Zenos specifically because he has Ascian blood (if he does, this is a question of whether Solus actually literally made babies with some Garlean chick or not and how that would even work) or if his soul was artificially altered to allow symbolic thought. I don't think his merging with Shinryu was because of his becoming Resonant, but I really wonder if his being given room to experience the perceptions of others and being forced to understand life on a much bigger scale/beyond himself will change him as per Fordola. I seriously think the guy had something like antisocial personality disorder going on with his characterization so whatever follows in his development could get real interesting.
I absolutely think there's a risk of the WoL becoming a primal vessel down the line though, and honestly as a reference to Shougun's thread about a possible dark transformation job... I think something along those lines could be a real possibility if that happens. Agree I don't think it'll be in Shadowbringers, but my god if/when it happens we are in for a wild ride. -
03-29-2019, 08:58 PMSeraphorI think this is a bit of a leap to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaseNetwork
A lack of ability doesn't equate to an active prevention.
It could simply be that Elidibus being in Zenos' body, means he ADDS this magical ability to the 'magic-less' body. -
03-29-2019, 09:22 PMGulaYeah this. Garleans seem to have physical prowess and build (that armor ain't light by any means) to compensate. It appears that when you add in a magical Ascian, you basically get a meat suit puppet with a lot of durability to throw out your own magic with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
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03-30-2019, 09:02 PMIscah
I also had the thought of the Garleans possibly summoning a "primal Emperor", I think back in 4.3 when Maxima was talking with Alphinaud, and used the phrase "by the Emperor" where other characters might say "by the gods" - which makes me think okay, so Garleans might be 'godless' but they think of the Emperor with that same kind of reverence... what could possibly go wrong there?
And that's before we even got to the more recent revelations about what's actually going on in Garlemald. -
03-30-2019, 09:07 PMkikix12This actually supports her claim. If Elidibus can use magic from a Garlean body, then it DOES mean that it's the soul that stops them from using magic, not the body. That's exactly what ChaseNetwork said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor