As the races evolved differently on the First, it would be fair to think magic and magic spells developed differently as well, I presume? What with the magic users of the Warriors of Darkness being Devout, and Magus...
Shadowbringers and magic
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03-23-2019, 09:47 PMmanamoppetShadowbringers and magic
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03-23-2019, 10:08 PMLambdafish
I think this would be a cool bit of lore. Like how we got a bunch of job reveals in stormblood that aren't playable (GEO, and all the ivalice jobs), I can see us learning about how the jobs evolved in the first.
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03-23-2019, 10:33 PMAnonymoose
The Warriors of Darkness having weird jobs with weird mixes of abilities actually was confirmed as a hint that the Source and the shards diverged pretty radically over time. (I guess we just assume the founders of Eulmore were "similarly inspired" to those that founded Limsa Lominsa? lol.) But it's also been confirmed that the classes on the Source are based on traditional schools that "just happen" (for the sake of game mechanics) to teach certain clusters of skills in certain ways. I bet there are all sorts of similar-but-different spells and roles over there, as much across dimensions as across time on the Source. I mean, Allagans had "conjurers" but they weren't, you know, conjurers.
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03-24-2019, 02:15 AMKiniunI became briefly excited during the presentation that maybe the reason we'd never seen dancers (and if it exists on the Source, the Garleans should have forcibly drafted some practitioners into their armies!) was due to its being a tradition on the First.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
But then they revealed you pick up the job in Limsa. sigh! -
03-24-2019, 02:34 AMVulcwenThe theory can still work, it's just that they stick to the concept of not locking the new jobs behind the story, thus they have to start in ARR zones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiniun
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03-24-2019, 08:05 AMBright-FlowerQuote:
Originally Posted by Vulcwen
Yep. Red mage draws its origins to Gyr Abania with survivors of Mhach and Ampador combining to form the new red magic. And Samurai goes all the way to hingashi.
Gunbraeker and Dancer are in Limsa and Gridania but that doesn't mean that they come from there lore wise. Only that it's where the quests begin. Blue mage is similar, it draws from a region that we can't even go to yet and may or may not ever see in game depending on how long FF XIV goes and if they eventually flesh out every corner of Hydalyn.
They teased in the Europe fanfast that the other job would be tied to the expansion city, so I'm assuming Dancer will indeed come from the First lore wise. It's possible that gunbraker does as well, we'll have to see.
I think something pretty big is going to happen on Tuesday to bridge the expansions. -
03-24-2019, 08:42 AMKageTokage
I had a thought that we might actually learn our new job skills from trainers native to the First this time around, as I can't see any logical reason our original job trainers would have for us going there.
I don't think going to the First is going to be a public access thing, either, so I doubt any of them would head there themselves. -
03-24-2019, 08:54 AMObsidianFire
The Job Quests for all the jobs are going to be very interesting. Some jobs are so centered in certain cultures that I don't see them ever involving the 1st Shard. Monk, Ninja, Samuari and Dragoon are all like that. Others are a lot less tied to any one culture and could much more easily be involved in thing on the 1st Shard. Astrologin, White Mage, Black Mage, Summoner, Bard... really any of the classes interested in another culture's way of doing their job would work well with the 1st Shard. It might also be that some of the Job Quests are going to be how we keep up with the situation on the Source.
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03-25-2019, 05:30 AMJonnycbad
This is how some jobs I think will lean abilities 71+. For example, we don't know if Dragons exist on the First, but if they do, it could be likely a Dragonsong War never happened. Maybe a clan of Elfan spearmen (Uhlans) learned to coexist with Dragons and never learned or created the fearsome Jump attacks Dragoons on the Source are known for
slaying dragons with. Instead, the Uhlans learned too weave Aether to form breath attacks that mimic Dragons' breaths. Since Dragoons visiting the first could learn these abilities, and we could get a Breath gauge for unleashing one of Dragoon's most powerful skills from the FF series: Holy Breath -
03-25-2019, 11:30 PMLineageRazorIt's pretty likely that no dragons exist on the First Shard - or any other Shard, for that matter. All Dragons are descended from Midgardsormr, who came to this world many thousands of years ago. Prior to that, no dragons existed in the world. I'm pretty sure that Midgardsormr arrived AFTER the Shards split off from the Source, so the Shards wouldn't have their own copies of Midgardsormr, and therefore no progenitor from whom dragons could descend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad
There may well be a spear-wielding job on the Source, but it would be completely detached from dragons in every way, and likely wouldn't have jumps as a central part of their arsenal (since jumping was cultivated among Dragoons to provide a way to combat flying opponents - a common danger when dealing with dragons).
More likely, I think, the Dragoon job quests will not involve the new areas, or involve them only minimally, just as the Black Mage quests did in Stormblood (only a brief section of one quest took place in a Stormblood area). -
03-26-2019, 12:40 AMKylePearlsandI wouldn't say it's impossible for dragons to be on the first. The Allagans were working on the Crystal tower and seem to be very successful in it's use. Xandes did have to be stopped from opening the thirteenth by Doga and Unei after all. I wouldn't be surprised if they sent dragons to other worlds for the sake of science.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
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03-26-2019, 04:45 AMSannaR
I thought they said that only our planet was what got sundered and everything else is still whole. So, Unless one of the two children of Midgardsormr shard hopped and kept their bodies I don't see how there would be any.
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03-26-2019, 06:56 PMJandorIf we can go to the first then I would assume people from the first can come to the source. The Dancer trainer could have just ended up in Limsa after dimension hopping over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiniun
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03-27-2019, 05:41 AMObsidianFire
All jobs have to start in one of the Hub Towns that can be accessed at the start of an expansion. So if it takes us a few levels to get to the 1st Shard, then no jobs can start there.
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03-27-2019, 06:35 AMJonnycbad
There were Dragons on the 13th (World of Darkness). Two-Headed and 5-Headed Dragons.
http://i.imgur.com/XXCTHZj.jpg?1
Not sure how they got there, but they're there. Either one the 2 remaining Dragons hopped dimensions and proliferated in them all, or Xande released dragons into them all.
Also, we fought Alte Roite which was a type of Dragon and it's from whichever shard Deltscape's beings came from.
Also we don't know if other Dragons survived the destruction of Dragonstar and came to Hydaelyn. We assume it was only Midgardsrmr, but maybe its like how Goku thought he, Raditz, Vegeta, and Nappa were the only Saiyins left...but then you got Broly, Turles, Tarble, etc. -
03-27-2019, 06:49 AMRocl
The two and five headed dragons are not "true" dragons, but rather hydras. Hydras, as far as we've ever been told, are Allagan creations. That is to say, they're chimeras made by Allagans to show that not even dragons were beyond their genetic tinkering.
Hydra boss FATE in Azys Lla:
To call them dragons is ... wrong. It's as true as calling a pegasus a horse, an empuse an antling, etc. (These two examples being other Allagan chimeras altered from base creatures.) Given what we know of the Crystal Tower story, it's likely that Xande chucked a bunch of chimeras, clones, and what-not into the Void as part of his covenant with the Cloud of Darkness. We fight inversely-coloured enemies from Syrcus, some of which are even named such--Xande's clone, for example.Quote:
Even the mighty dragons themselves were subject to the Allagan Empire's incessant tinkering with the very laws of nature─Goryshche is one such product of that imperial hubris. Aimlessly roaming the Azys Lla wastes, the multi-headed abomination silently seeks an end to five thousand years of suffering.
The point being, if Hydras are Allagan creations and are present in the World of Darkness (a subsection of the Void), it's likely they aren't actually native to the Void/Thirteenth, imo. -
03-27-2019, 06:51 AMVexander
Might be a bit of a strange thought, but what if each shard isn't just a single world, but an entire universe? So, each and every shard would have it's own world where Midgardsormir originated on? In some of these universe-shards, he'd go to the world that's the universe's main world.
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03-27-2019, 06:58 AMVulcwenI think it was even stated at this point that the Sundering is a thing local to our planet, although other planets might also be split.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexander
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03-27-2019, 07:01 PMJandorI wonder what happens if you fly far enough out into space and then come back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcwen
Slip back into your home shard or end up on the source? :confused: -
03-27-2019, 07:30 PMDualgunner
No dragons on the first, huh... that would mean the First's crystal tower serves a vastly different purpose than the Source's wouldn't it?
Our Tower was built to harness Dalamud's power iirc--that power being Bahamut's in reality, who himself is a primal born from the memories of a member of Midgardsormr's brood held by a distressed Tiamat.
No dragons, no Bahamut primal, no dalamud...so what purpose would the First's Tower serve? -
03-28-2019, 12:00 AMJonnycbadQuote:
No dragons on the first, huh... that would mean the First's crystal tower serves a vastly different purpose than the Source's wouldn't it?
Our Tower was built to harness Dalamud's power iirc--that power being Bahamut's in reality, who himself is a primal born from the memories of a member of Midgardsormr's brood held by a distressed Tiamat.
No dragons, no Bahamut primal, no dalamud...so what purpose would the First's Tower serve?
The Ascians have a long track history of playing both sides in order to stir up conflict. For example, it's very likely that it's the Asians who imparted knowledge of Allag tech to Garleans so they can develop Magitek. Why? Because the Garleans were subjugated and oppressed people, mistreated by most other nations, and the Garleans could not defend themselves against their aether-derived techniques (magic). Meanwhile, other downtrodden peoples (beast tribes) are given methods to summon Primals so they can drive away oppressors from their homelands. Now you have these powerful civilizations warring against each other using powerful means. I also strongly believe that the Ascians are what seeded the concept of Black Magic and White Magic as well to the Mhachi and Amdapori as well, and released the plague unto the Nymians.
Now, what does this have to do with CT, Allag, and Bahamut? Well, the Allag probably understood or maybe someone whispered into Xande's ear, that Primals are immortal unless killed, and as long as they have fervent prayers to maintain their form, they will draw aether at will and store it like a battery. So, Xande had the CT built and Dalamud constructed. The plan was simple. Declare war on a tribe and drive them to the brink of desperation. Meanwhile, the Ascians will appear when they're at the brink of total annihilation and offer them a tool to turn the tables--Summmoning. Then, when the Primal is fresh and has yet to feast on Aether, the Allag would unleash one of their Ultima Weapons (or Proto-Ultima?) to weaken the Primal before ensnaring it in Dalamud. Then they would launch Dalamud into space, beyond the reach of Hydaelyn's aether. With no other ambient to absorb other than solar aether from the Sun, the Primal would drain the sun's power and store it like a battery. Dalamud would then transmit excess energy to the crystal tower as a relay station to power their civilization. Thus I do not think they built Dalamud specifically for -Bahamut-, but built it with the plan in mind to create an energy-draining enslavement chamber for a Primal they would force an unsuspecting beast tribe to summon out of desperation, defeat it, and ensare it forever. The Merycidians and Bahamut just happened to be the end result. But I think it could have been any tribe and their beastmen perhaps. I think Bahamut was first, and then they subjugated the Warring Triad afterward. What made Bahamut extra strong was that he could gorge himself on Aether from a near limitless source of aether (the sun) without draining Hydaelyn dry, as well as Dalamud being chock full of capture Dravanians who are being kept alive and tortured to maintain their prayers of salvation, which in turn nourish Bahamut.
Now back to your question about what could the CT on the First serve? Like I said earlier, the Ascians probably taught the predominant races on the First about CT technology just like they did for the Allag on the Source, which means there's likely some other Dalamud-like counterpart also on the First with a similar function--to ensare and drain a Primal that's passively feasting on a boundless supply of solar aether. My bet is that while CT was called Syrcus Tower on the Source, CT is called the "Tower of Babil" or "Tower of Zot" on The First---and all the FF4 implications that come with that (Giant of Babil instead of Bahamut and maybe draining LUNAR aether as opposed to Solar aether). -
03-28-2019, 03:18 AMYianKutkuMinor correction: as far as we know from pre-Shadowbringers info, the Crystal Tower on the Source was built by the Allagans long before Xande was revived and the war with Meracydia was a thing. Allegedly, Syrcus Tower was built as a solar energy collector to help power the entire Allagan Empire at the time, which it reportedly did with abundance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dualgunner
After the whole Xande and Meracydia and Bahamut thing, Xande ordered Bahamut to be sent up into space, and repurposed the Crystal Tower to draw energy from Dalamud instead. According to the lorebook (which is necessarily a summarized version of the dialogue in the CT raids, so the details might be different), Xande specifically intended this Dalamud-power to be used to open a portal to the Void.
Now, with the current questions about where the Crystal Tower really came from on the First and possibly the Source, anything is possible. But the important point is that Syrcus Tower pre-dates Xande and Bahamut/Dalamud significantly, putting aside its obvious remodelling and the usual Ship Of Theseus arguments. -
03-28-2019, 04:20 AMLineageRazorThe enemies created by Omega were, in many, if not all cases, based on fictional characters. I believe that it said that the Deltascape folks, in particular, came from Garlean folklore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad
In addition to what folks have said above, I don't think it's a given that there IS a Crystal Tower on the First - YET. It's my theory that the Crystal Tower there is the Crystal Tower FROM the Source, either teleported there, or existing simultaneously in both places, once the Gates are finally Thrown Wide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dualgunner
There's too much we don't know yet to really make any kind of assumptions.