So I'm a returning player, I stopped playing just after the release of stormblood due mostly to other obligations, and in Heavensward I played a Machinist. I liked the support style but I wasnt a fan of the Bards kit or aesthetics. I know they reworked Machinist at the launch of stormblood and that they lost a lot of that support ability (or I was told, didnt get much of a chance to play it) coming back now I'm just curious if they still lack the support power that the Bard still has.
MCH vs BRD
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03-17-2019, 09:32 AMAebelMCH vs BRD
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03-17-2019, 11:39 AMNobleWinter
Bard and MCH both have the same Role Skills so they can refresh TP and MP to the party and also use Pallisade for extra physical defense on a single party member. Aside for those shared skills MCH has Dismantle which reduces the attack damage from a single enemy for 6 seconds. It's helpful for things like Raid Wide AoEs or Tank Buster's from bosses. MCH also has Hypercharge from their Turret which makes any enemy it hits more susceptible to damage by 6%. This is a Raid Buff that increases damage from everyone hitting the target. This is where MCH support ends. Bard can removed Debuffs and also increase healing received from a single Party member once every 45 seconds. Bards can also increase critical rate by 2% for the whole party or increase damage received by enemies by 3% due to their songs. Bards can also increase their parties direct hit rate too. They have a ton of support options and are favorable for low skill groups since their support skills are just a constant crutch. In a high end party with extremely skilled players a MCH will do more damage though if they line up their Hypercharge with other raid buffs and get the most out of all their skills.
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03-17-2019, 12:14 PMSelond3
While everything Nobel said is true it is extremely hard for mch to out dps a bard of equal gear and skill. This mainly being because of mch's clunky and strict rotation. Machinist is also wild more dependent on wildfire and a good/bad ping on your side can be devastating to your dps.
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03-17-2019, 06:48 PMHussainthis is false , Mch easily outdps Brd. if you can't do the rotation correctly that does not mean what you're saying is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Selond3
I can say Sam doesn't outdps ninja cause I'm doing the rotation wrong :D
anyway although Brd falls behind Mch in personal dps but Brd raid dps covers for it. overall dps Brd>Mch / personal dps Mch>Brd
in terms of utility they both share tp and mp refresh and palisade which is a 20% physical CD for tanks
Mch has Hypercharge and dismantle
Brd has troubador , nature's minne , foe , battle voice and a perm 2% crit for the rest of your party
if you want to play the better job go Brd , if that doesn't matter to you then play whatever you're enjoying. It's the end of the expansion and most teams don't care about what's the most optimal job -
03-18-2019, 11:27 PMForgottenScholar
Also to add to the above all of the cross role abilities are being looked at for 5.0 so they may or may not be here by then. TP is being removed as a resource and tied to mp?. Main point im trying to make is all jobs will undergo a slight to moderate rework moving forward to allow for the 5.0 abilities without adding too many buttons to use for each job. To this end I would highly suggest you play what job you enjoy rather than what is good and maybe on the side use palace of the dead and heaven on high to lvl bard so at least you have a fallback on incase you dont like the way 5.0 mch has gone. It is definately getting a rework as it has been generally known as a clunky job with having to align lots of abilties and skills for your 10 second dps window every minute.
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03-20-2019, 01:22 PMSelond3
[QUOTE=Hussain;4910005]this is false , Mch easily outdps Brd. if you can't do the rotation correctly that does not mean what you're saying is true.
Read the whole post. I said it is hard to out dps a brd because of the rotation not that it isnt possible. The rotation outside of wildfire is quite simple as is lining everything up for wildfire. However unlike brd, mch depends on you having a fairly strong internet and low ping because there is alot of double weaving during wildfire and even a single mistake will tank your dps. Does mch out dps brd in a one on one situation? Yes. Is it as easy easy for the mch? No. -
03-20-2019, 05:17 PMHussain
[QUOTE=Selond3;4911918]
again this is wrong "there is alot of double weaving during wildfire" after you put wf on , you only doube weave once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hussain
yes mch needs to have a good ping but not very low ping , ~95 should be more than enough
players who say it's hard to execute mch rotation correctly is hard because it's clunky...etc actually confuse me , I look at it as they didn't practice enough -
03-20-2019, 10:43 PMAeliott
Brd personal DPS is only marginally below Mchs DPS. A very good Bard is almost universally better when taking into account everything else they offer. MCH having a higher skill floor means if someones using it correctly they'll be on average better than bard (in personal deeps anyway) but at the very top of the ceiling the best bard's don't care for being a couple of hundred DPS behind MCH when their support more than makes up for it, not to mention they're far more flexible for clunky fight timings and don't have to stand in place for flamethrower.
That said, if you prefer MCH there's no reason not to play it, especially if you're not fond of bard. The difference isn't gonna matter in most things, especially if you're returning at this point. The main feeling is that mch is more effort with nothing to show for it in comparison, unlike HW. -
03-21-2019, 01:54 AMHussaina couple of hundreds behind isn't little :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Aeliott
but yes overall dmg Brd is better because of their crazy raid dps , but that only matters when you're playing in a good group who make use of your buffs otherwise your rDPS would be lower
I was only commenting on the guy who said Brd with equal gear and skill can outdps Mch which is false
as Aeliott said tho it's the end of the expansion and if Brd isn't fun for you then play Mch tbh , rework is coming in 5.0 -
03-21-2019, 03:32 AMJonnycbad
MCH's rotation #feelsbad. Poorly designed, things align weirdly. You lose your GB intentionally as part of your rotation and have to remember to toggle it back on or you lose out on a huge amount of damage while you do unbuffed shots. Plus, you also lose your turret for like 30 seconds after Overloading it and have to remember to re-summon it....
BRD's rotation is idiot proof, feels rewarding, and is very intuitive. Everything flows and makes sense and therefore damage is high and consistent. -
03-21-2019, 05:53 AMJollyy5Yeah, I joined a static that was looking for a MCH, unlearned a rotation to learn another one, and while I can pull it off, a single lag spike will pretty much destroy everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad
In other words, even after learning a proper MCH rotation, it doesn't feel fun, but instead is incredibly stressful since so many things can ruin it completely, going back to playing literally any other DPS class felt like a relief. -
03-21-2019, 07:13 AMHussainas soon as I read "things align weirdly" I knew you don't even know mch rotation man, it's ok to express your opinion but just don't spread wrong infoQuote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad
and about "remembering to re summon your turret and putting your barrel on" bruh cmon..... if you're struggling to press one button then again you're proving my point , learn the job before you spread wrong information about it , some new players would really like to know the correct stuff
yes mch design is not that good and has some flaws but the only thing about mch that's actually perfect is their burst alignment , anyone who says otherwise know literally nothing about mch rotation -
03-21-2019, 09:23 AMJollyy5Any amount of skillspeed does kinda throw your rotation out of whack, specifically reloads coming off CD when you don't want them to, which can result in a lackluster and/or awkward burst rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hussain
As for Gauss Barrel and re-summoning the turret, that's just pointless busywork that doesn't really add anything interesting to gameplay, it's tedious at best.
And the burst rotation is very susceptible to high ping and lag, making it difficult to pull off reliably for too many people, not to mention that if the target dies, goes invulnerable or leaves, your Wildfire is just straight up gone. Sure, in some cases you can learn when the boss is going to go invulnerable, but depending on raid DPS, that timing can change.
Just the fact that we have to use Flamethrower to force Overheat speaks volumes on how fundamentally borked MCH is. -
03-21-2019, 09:29 AMLevy9MCH and BLM are my only lvl 70 DPS jobs. MCH doesn't feel clunky to play or poorly designed to me but my frame of reference is small for PvE jobs. Some adjustments are welcome, but I hope they don't over streamline MCH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad
I honestly don't see how forgetting to reapply Gauss Barrel is any different from forgetting to put down Leylines on BLM. Both are one-button buffs that substantially increase DPS. Yet, Gauss Barrel seems to be a common gripe people have for MCH, but not with similar abilities on other jobs. *Shrug*. -
03-21-2019, 06:34 PMHussainagain wrong because you don't have enough experience on the job , there are a lot of sks tiers that will make mch rotation work just fine without any clippingQuote:
Originally Posted by Jollyy5
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03-23-2019, 02:51 PMSaitoHikariThe argument isn't about experience. No one cares how good you are at playing the class if the design still sucks. The burst alignment may be good, but it's everything else that happens outside of it that leaves a sour taste in most people's mouths. It also doesn't help at all that MCH feels incredibly weak during the level-up process until they reach level 70, which has probably chased countless people off of the class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hussain
No one's arguing that MCH is actually bad meta-wise. People think BLM and SAM are bad meta-wise yet tons of people still play them. Everyone's arguing that MCH simply doesn't exist because most people don't want to play them period, and for good reason. -
03-23-2019, 03:35 PMlulunami
BRD personal DPS varies a lot due to Crit procs, so you will see larger deviations compared to MCH. Sometimes you snapshot the correct raid buffs but you just get little to no procs. Other times, you keep hitting Refulgent Arrow, Bloodletter, and Pitch Perfect one after another for a while.
BRD is easier to play at a base level than MCH. MCH has a much stricter rotation compared to BRD. You have to keep pressing your buttons in a certain order to keep your potency up and align your buffs/moves for Wildfire every minute. There are several Wildfire variations based on your proc luck if you want to be optimal. If you mess up on BRD, it is probably okay to fix your rotation since random procs may favor you that run. -
03-23-2019, 11:21 PMDyvidGauss Barrel always felt gimmicky to me ever since HW. Personally I wouldn't mind if they just dropped the barrel, added the 2.5 cast timer back, and have bullets remove cast timer like in 3.0. I think with Dancer coming into the mix, SE should focus more on making Turrets into a Shaman like buff mechanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Levy9
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03-24-2019, 10:11 PMPopotatoI'm glad someone in this thread actually plays MCH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hussain
Saying that things align weirdly... Well, that's just not true. MCH's abilities align so well to a fault. It's because of how well MCH abilities align that cause MCH to have such little opportunity for optimisation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad
I can understand forgetting to put up your turret after an overdrive, but forgetting to put on Gauss Barrel...? You must be in some serious autopilot for that to even happen. Either way though, I don't see those as flaws of the job. It's just how the job operates. It's like saying "I hate forgetting to keep track of my mana and don't Foe's Requiem soon enough". That's just a part of the job that you have to learn, which you are very much free to dislike, but you can't attribute your rotational mistakes as a flaw in the job. On the other hand...
This is fair enough. There's no reason for Gauss Barrel to be a button. There's no reason for your turret to disappear after and overdrive. They both can stay on and not affect gameplay all that much, but I personally don't mind having to use them again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jollyy5
This is an issue with just about every job. Every job has skill speed tiers and skill speed dead zones. MCH does hate Sks in general, but it isn't to do with oGCD clipping, but rather with heat generation and Rapid Fire. The amount of unavoidable Sks in the current raid tier makes 2 ammo rotation essentially dead on MCH, or at least it was until Eureka gear came out. The other part of Sks being useless is due to damage being heavily centralised on WF, the majority of which is under Rapid Fire which doesn't get affected by Sks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jollyy5
The rotation outside of WF is definitely bland, but the much more prevalent argument I see for people disliking MCH is that they dislike having all their damage comes from one window. Each to their own. The leveling experience definitely isn't great, but overheating literally doesn't matter before level 64. There's no downside to overheating when you don't have heated shots yet, it's always a DPS gain. It's only the short period of level 64 and 65 that is pretty dysfunctional.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaitoHikari
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03-25-2019, 08:14 AMShadygrove
If you screw up the MCH rotation your DPS plummets like a Monty Python sheep. And its quite rigid.
BRD is way more fluid but you have to keep an eye out for procs.
I liked MCH in HW, leveled it to 70 in SB but never play it vastly perfering BRD.
YMMV.