after leveling Paladin ... Dark Knight just feels really squishy

so mind you this is the leveling of 1-57 for my paladin and obviously 30-51 so far of my dark knight. i'm still a new player so take that for granted as well.

when i saw the dark knight unlocked i knew that was the class for me. i have always played tanks with life drains ... shadow knight in EQ1/2 and Death Knights in Wow. so i have put my Paladin on the back burner a bit and decided to level the dark knight.

the road has been a bumpy one to say the least. in leveling dungeons i feel extremely squishy ... where as i feel like i HAVE to use my cooldowns almost always on everything, where as with my paladins i usually pop cooldowns on bigger pulls.

i feel the biggest problem is that Dark Knights don't get their good abilities till damn near 50 which obviously aren't going to help me when i am doing leveling roulette dungeons. Even souleater is a level 38 ability, to me this should be core and gotten much much earlier. To me this would be like giving paladins access to a shield at level 38 but any dungeon before that they have to unequip the shield.

worse, DRK don't get his main mitigation tool TBN (the blackest night) until level 70, and his self healing on large packs of mods are a bit gutted too bcs of that, so yeah it's more hard and tedious but is loable, just administrate you CD's and use all the role skills you have like convalescence and anticipation to make everything a bit more smoot, when you get to lvl 70 it's feels way better.

Since they broke DRK back in 4.0 it only really works well in lvl 70 content. I hope the 5.0 rework addresses this

If you want life draining tanks, WAR is where it's at. Not DRK. Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone, Equilibrium and to an extent: Storm's Path combine for a lot of healing. 3 of these abilities are obtained by level 40.

It was referred to above, but since Stormblood hit, pre-70 class balance went down the gutter due to reworked stats, redistributed abilities and abandoned system (cross class replaced by Role Actions) that threw off a lot of what the jobs were balanced around. Not to mention most classes got core abilities that they only learn at or near 70 (TBN for DRK, IR for WAR, etc.) that will make you feel like you're playing a gimp class until you do hit max.

Over all, all three tanks have the same armor, health and basic mitigation. Cooldowns is what separates them. If you were not using your CDs on PLD know that you were lucky with better healers on PLD than when you played DRK. DRK has much better up-time on its CDs compared to PLD (and WAR even more so). This will be even more apparent at higher levels when mobs become immune to blind (Flash loses mitigative value) and their damage scales harder and switches from random autos to specific abilities (that random blocks/parries won't matter unless they proc on the right hits).

Regardless, play the tank you enjoy thematically more. All three tanks are balanced at max level.

All tanks suffer a bit leveling
Paladin has no aoe till mid 40s(and its the only damaging aoe it gets so it's pretty boring with alot of enemies).
Warrior doesn't get dps stance till early 50's.
Darks entire level set is all just oddly placed (was in HW aswell) removal of shadow skin didn't help .

Definitely need some awareness if enemies are magical or not Dark mind can help alot ,
Now that role skills unlocked Anticipation helps a little bit too but still poor design.

So its not just me? I guess thats a relief but DRK is only tank i like so.. depressing..... fitting?

Yeah drk pre 70 isn’t very good in dungeons just because you miss the blood to use quintus. But the same can be said about war without inner release pulling big pulls is hard. Dungeon tank order is Drk/war/pld. But the raid order is War/Pld/Drk

Well... The major difference between PLD and not PLD is that while PLD has a shield to block attacks to provide that extra layer of mitigation, DRK and WAR instead have lower CD's on their mitigation CD's allowing them to use Vengeance/Shadow Wall more often than a PLD can use Sentinel.

To say nothing of being able to use Dark Mind and Thrill of Battle which again have shorter CD's than Bulwark.

So, it's expected that PLD would have to use fewer CD's because that's how they're designed. More passive mitigation but longer CD's so they can't pop skills as frequently.

Leveling up and doing Roulettes, I don't honestly feel much difference between the tanks in terms of defence. They all feel similar, given I manage their CD's properly. That is, until level 52 PLD because then Sheltron is really, really good against bosses. Since it lets you go ham in DPS stance while still letting you block 20-30% (Depending on what ilevel sync is putting your stats at) of the major damage abilities of bosses. Which is never matched by WAR (Unless you sit in Tank stance for Inner Beasts...) and DRK only compares at level 70 with TBN.

Though, this only matters if you don't need to be in Tank stance to keep aggro because some DPS is going ham and doesn't know what Diversion does... Since if you're in Tank stance, not only do you basically not generate gauge ever (Until level 68 when you'll have Requiescat > Holy Spirit spam which generates gauge in Shield Oath) but also you then also have higher base mitigations for the tanks across the board (With Grit also giving damage reduction and self healing from Souleater and WAR having Inner Beast) so the difference between having that block and not isn't as large.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

If you were not using your CDs on PLD know that you were lucky with better healers on PLD than when you played DRK. DRK has much better up-time on its CDs compared to PLD (and WAR even more so).

---

I don't think this is the case; OP is saying he HARDLY need to put them on (on pulls) while he does need it on DRK (uptime is not in question if he's not using the skill at all.

I think the shield is the think changing things here;

In FF XIV:

All tanks can Parry (with weapon) (a succesfull parry grants damage reduction on the parried hit)
PALs can Block (With shields) OR Parry (with swords) (a succesfull block grants an higher damage reduction on the blocked hit)

So if 10 enemies are hitting you (as DRK) and you have a 10% chance of parry you'll reduce 1 hit out of 10 (not much)

if the same enemies are hitting you (as PAL) you'll problably block one and parry another one

This works really well with flash (that blinds) especially on low level enemies (not immune to blind). Flash is (indirectly) a def CD if the enemyes are blindable (and you'd use it anyway at least once).


On the opposite side PALs dont get any decent DPS skill 'till lvl 60ish; you could argue that this is not as important as the lack of survival skills (on a tank) but usually fast-killing a boss pays better than the "play safe" from what i could see 'till now

Exactly, that's how you should feel. Never underestimate the power of random blocks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noldornir

I don't think this is the case; OP is saying he HARDLY need to put them on (on pulls) while he does need it on DRK (uptime is not in question if he's not using the skill at all.

I think the shield is the think changing things here;

In FF XIV:

All tanks can Parry (with weapon) (a succesfull parry grants damage reduction on the parried hit)
PALs can Block (With shields) OR Parry (with swords) (a succesfull block grants an higher damage reduction on the blocked hit)

So if 10 enemies are hitting you (as DRK) and you have a 10% chance of parry you'll reduce 1 hit out of 10 (not much)

if the same enemies are hitting you (as PAL) you'll problably block one and parry another one

This works really well with flash (that blinds) especially on low level enemies (not immune to blind). Flash is (indirectly) a def CD if the enemyes are blindable (and you'd use it anyway at least once).


On the opposite side PALs dont get any decent DPS skill 'till lvl 60ish; you could argue that this is not as important as the lack of survival skills (on a tank) but usually fast-killing a boss pays better than the "play safe" from what i could see 'till now

---

It's not that simple. The fact that when OP pulled he HARDLY needed to put them on can be attributed to many things, none of them is: "PLD mitigates more than DRK/WAR without CD". They could have simply had better healers while on PLD.

First of all, you can't block AND parry. Since this game hit-table checks for misses, then crits, then blocks, then parries, a PLD will parry much less than WAR/DRK (their parry chance is reduced by the same chance% of their block). So in your example, if you block 10% of the time, you'll only parry 9%. But in reality, parry is negligible without a CD that forces it. Tanks have base parry chance of 5%. If PLD has 20% chance to dodge, they're already at 4%. My PLD which is in BiS has near 40% block chance (I have 100% chance to block with Bulwark up now), so my parry can't be more than 3% unless I abuse Anticipation usage, and even then, Anticipation gives my PLD only 22% chance to parry instead of 30% of total attacks. WAR and DRK will parry more than a PLD ever will. As a matter of fact, you should disregard parry's existence as a PLD. I mean even DRK and WAR do lol.

Second, RNG mitigation is available to other tanks. WAR gains more parry from its gauge, DRK can AoE blind with Dark Arts Dark Passenger. DRK and WAR also have abilities to heal through their damage to make up for any mitigation lost. For a PLD to heal, they drop their ability to block by casting Clemency.

Third, RNG mitigation is NOT reliable. As I mentioned in my earlier post, damage shifts from many attacks that add up to many smaller attacks that add up and certain abilities to watch for, and should your RNG mitigative tool "fail" to mitigate the one hit that matters, you will take very nasty damage.

Last but not least, the fact block is stronger than parry is already balanced by having longer CD on all their defensives. Bulwark is twice as long as Raw Intuition and 3 times as long as Dark Mind for example. Sentinel is 50% longer than Shadow Wall and Vengeance, and lasts only 66% as long as the latter. Hallowed Ground is limited to 1 usage per fight as opposed to "abuse for half the nasties" that Holmgang allows you to. List goes on.

One additional thing: Due to lack of good AoE damage options, AoE pulls with a PLD simply take longer than they would if you had WAR or DRK. Stretching periods of high damage longer than necessary. This alone makes PLD simply the worst tank in AoE scenarios.

For more details, there are many posts scattered here on the forums by me and other better tanks that show the major differences between the tanks' sources of mitigation, DPS and utility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

It's not that simple.

---

Things rarely are, but Paladin as a baseline is more durable than the other two. That much is that simple. It's through active cooldown use where everyone ends up about even, but Dark Knights don't get their complete mitigation kit until 70, which is why this topic came about.

In short, shields OP.

As one of the biggest proponents for DRK, even I have to say that anything below cap is pretty bad compared to the other tanks. Still, so long as you play smart with your cross roles, DADP, and stay in grit for all trash pulls, you'll be fine.

1-69 is a crapshoot for all tanks. You gain access to different parts of your kit at different levels vs other tanks. But it's over so fast I wouldnt really worry about it. All tanks will survive the road to 70 and mass pulls really depend on a very solid team to do in level capped dungeons. Tank has to be good, healer has to he good, dos have to kill things fast enough. The entire team needs to he on point for mass pulls without the ilvl advantage you suddenly get at lv 50, 60, and 70. It all self corrects kn the end.

Dark Knight really doesnt come alive until you get the Blackest Night at 70. The other Stormblood actions are just not as intuitive to use.

DRK really is squishier than PLD, particularly in synched content. I know drk fanboys (or girls) really really want them to be equal in mitigation but they really aren't. I learned this both while leveling drk/pld and while leveling any healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steelbreeze

DRK really is squishier than PLD, particularly in synched content. I know drk fanboys (or girls) really really want them to be equal in mitigation but they really aren't. I learned this both while leveling drk/pld and while leveling any healer.

---

DRK is not more squishier that PLD, is in fact the most solid tank against magic content and it's equal on physical fights, only on leveling where DRK missed most of his primary tools it's pretty bad for the overall bad desing they give us this expansion.

A few people have taken "drk is squishy' out of context. Pre 70 (the point of the thread) drk is squishy. It gets to on-demand, free spam mitigation at lv 70. At 70 it's a different story, but pre 70 drk is a little rough. But it's still functional for the hour you might be any given level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

It's not that simple. The fact that when OP pulled he HARDLY needed to put them on can be attributed to many things, none of them is: "PLD mitigates more than DRK/WAR without CD". They could have simply had better healers while on PLD.

---

Indeed, i'm presuming OP tested many times (with many variables changing) before submitting

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

First of all, you can't block AND parry. Since this game hit-table checks for misses, then crits, then blocks, then parries, a PLD will parry much less than WAR/DRK (their parry chance is reduced by the same chance% of their block). So in your example, if you block 10% of the time, you'll only parry 9%. But in reality, parry is negligible without a CD that forces it. Tanks have base parry chance of 5%. If PLD has 20% chance to dodge, they're already at 4%. My PLD which is in BiS has near 40% block chance (I have 100% chance to block with Bulwark up now), so my parry can't be more than 3% unless I abuse Anticipation usage, and even then, Anticipation gives my PLD only 22% chance to parry instead of 30% of total attacks. WAR and DRK will parry more than a PLD ever will. As a matter of fact, you should disregard parry's existence as a PLD. I mean even DRK and WAR do lol.

---

I think one should NEVER disregard something that's free (like the passive chanche to parry) especially early on. All the calculation you are making are good but based on the "long run" (overall chanche that something will happen) . WAR and DRK will indeed parry more (cause they can't block it FIRST). The only think not accounted is that parry chanche is "just another thing" that COULD happen in case you could not dodge/block:

let's say enemy as a base chanche to hit you of 100% (won't account crit/dh) and gives you 100 hits on both:

A PAL (20%dodge + 30%block + 10%Parry) (Clarification: i'm using random nambers)
A WAR/DRK (20% dodge + 10%parry)

let's also presume both tanks are not using any cooldown to raise such percentages (OP is not saying DRK is weak he's just stating it NEEDS CD always on while PAL doesn't); they'r just getting hit like a dummy target.

On the PAL:

-20 Hits will miss: 80 will land
-of these 80 the 30% (24) will be blocked= now we have a total of 56 hits remaining
-of these 56 the 10% (5.6) will be parried= 50.4 Hits Remaining

Total:

51 (rounding 50.4) Standard Hits
20 MISSES
24 Blocks
5 (rounding 5.6) Parries



On the other tank:

-20 Hits will miss: 80 will land
-of these 80 the 10% (8) will be parried= now we have a total of 72 Remaining hits.

Total:

72 Standard Hits
20 MISSES
8 PARRIES

As you can see, even with diminishing returns (which will always happen in a damage reduction calculation based on percentages) the double chanche is something not to take lightly. In truth the difference between chanches is minimal (the PAL parried 3 hits less than the other BUT also blocked 24)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Second, RNG mitigation is available to other tanks. WAR gains more parry from its gauge, DRK can AoE blind with Dark Arts Dark Passenger. DRK and WAR also have abilities to heal through their damage to make up for any mitigation lost. For a PLD to heal, they drop their ability to block by casting Clemency.

---

AoE Blind is available to PALs as well (Flash); PALs can't use clemency/holy spirits in the levels he's talking about (they can't DPS at all as well). While DPS->SelfHeal can be too little early on on levels to be noticed (no substantial damage)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Third, RNG mitigation is NOT reliable. As I mentioned in my earlier post, damage shifts from many attacks that add up to many smaller attacks that add up and certain abilities to watch for, and should your RNG mitigative tool "fail" to mitigate the one hit that matters, you will take very nasty damage.

---

I feel that you are a very strong and experienced player (from the things you say) but you are not accounting that the original statement have been made with a situational dogma in mind: OP IS STILL LEVELLING.

What you stated is true in a bossfight, you can't rely on blocking a Death Sentence (you use an active ability when you want to be SURE) but in a pull with 6+ enemyes hitting you passive RNG mitigation starts to get better; in fact block/parry/dodge is much more efficient on 10 low pwr hits than in 1 heavy pwr hit (in the latter as you say one should not rely on it, you cant just "hope" to block the tankbuster

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Last but not least, the fact block is stronger than parry is already balanced by having longer CD on all their defensives. Bulwark is twice as long as Raw Intuition and 3 times as long as Dark Mind for example. Sentinel is 50% longer than Shadow Wall and Vengeance, and lasts only 66% as long as the latter. Hallowed Ground is limited to 1 usage per fight as opposed to "abuse for half the nasties" that Holmgang allows you to. List goes on.

---

It IS balanced, as you say, in fact OP is stating "I can't do it without DEF CD while with PAL i can". Pal will not even use a CD in a pull most times (PALs save it cause they can't use em so frequently)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

One additional thing: Due to lack of good AoE damage options, AoE pulls with a PLD simply take longer than they would if you had WAR or DRK. Stretching periods of high damage longer than necessary. This alone makes PLD simply the worst tank in AoE scenarios.

For more details, there are many posts scattered here on the forums by me and other better tanks that show the major differences between the tanks' sources of mitigation, DPS and utility.

---

Now you are wounding me deeply :D:D:D

You are correct, Due to lack of good AoE damage options, AoE pulls with a PLD simply take longer than they would if you had WAR or DRK

AoE Pulling with a PAL while exping is a PAIN especially in a random with ppl random targetting enemies/running in front of you/fucking up in general; before LvL 30 a PAL needs to flash 2-3 times in order not loosing aggro (with maybe a combo or two inbetween - NO MORE) pulling with a WAR/DRK is SO MUCH BETTER.

Killing an almost dead boss when your party wiped with a DRK/WAR at lvl 30-50 is MUCH MORE easy than doing it with a PAL (you could survive eons sure, while comboing Rage of Halone on him cause you can only do that).

These differences tends to fade off at 70 due to all tanks having their complete toolkits.

In short:

A low-LvL PAL is more tough but will loose aggro pretty easily if overnumbered
a low-LvL DRK will have an harder time to survive but is unlikely to loose aggro

Later on skills such as The Blackest Night to improve a DRK resistance overall and Goring Blade/Royal Authority-Requiescat+Holy Spirit to give PALs something to attack with

In light of this thread, and it’s responses, I hope everyone is looking forward to 5.0 and even more removal of abilities and further imbalance of jobs at lower levels!

My suggestion is everyone just organize their hot bars, it’s not so difficult.

This coming from a gamepad user, who uses and has every ability on their hotbar with plenty of space still!

-On topic. DRK has Soul Eater and Abyssal Drain. Though not as powerful as a shield, should always be used. Essentially I have seen DRK’s repeatedly using power slash. This is not the way to go, in fact, once you get soul eater, should never be used unless you’re losing threat.

Pretty much in terms of leveling content all content 60 and below is best done with a PLD. Just simply because of the blind effect, and the amount of damage it blocks/parries.

I hope DRK will get something to assist in the lower levels but I doubt it. The rework of TP&MP may shake up some skills to where they are going to have to change some levels on certain skills. And then there is the changing of role actions which we wont really know until May at the job skill reveals.

DRK sucks at lower levels, once you get lvl 64 and higher you get group health and mp drains. I still cringe when a drk pulls 2 - 3 groups at once and expect to survive at lower levels, they take a ton of damage compared to PLD or WAR. You can feel the damage difference when you heal between the 3 tanks. DRK is the worst.

TBN is without question one of the best mitigation tools in the game, but if you're crawling on bloody hands and knees getting to the finish line that is level 70, something's not right. Far too often I see DRKs only using Shadow Wall and Rampart like it's their only tools. And these are the DRKs that typically gripe about being so squishy. If you've become proficient with self-sustainability prior to lv70, TBN is even better than advertised when you finally do get it. DRK isn't any different from any other tank in terms of becoming better at what they do the higher level you go. Optimization of the tools given to you throughout is going to make life easier on you and your healer.

At level 50, you are no different from the other tanks when it comes to role skills. You have Anticipation, Convalescence, and Awareness and you should be using them. I don't see DRKs using skills like Anticipation and Awareness during the pull. They instead wait 2-3 seconds after getting wailed on to use them. Taking more damage from behind is still a thing last I checked, along with an increased rate of taking critical hits. You can still parry while facing away from enemies so rotate Anticipation with Awareness during the pull, and pop Convalescence along with a defensive CD like Shadow Wall or Rampart when you come to a stop because this is when damage will be the highest. These are things all tanks should be doing because they all have access to these skills at the same levels.

Along with what I have mentioned above, I don't see DRKs using Blood Price during the pull either. Again, they wait until stopping to pop it reducing the amount of Unleash/Abysmal Drains they can cast during the most opportune point of the pull to do so. BP will help restore the MP used from Unleash and Unmend. It will then be on cooldown by the time you stop so you won't have worry about stuns from the group making it ineffective, plus you have a stun yourself and full MP gauge to do what you do.

To continue with more DRK specific abilities through level 69; against magical enemies, you have Dark Mind, which no longer requires DA and you should be using it. All the while I am not seeing DRKs use DA+Dark Passenger. This IS a mitigative tool which causes AoE damage, builds hate, and blinds enemies. You should be using it. I'm not seeing DRKs using DA+Abysmal Drain. This causes AoE damage, builds hate, and restores HP. This is a self-sustaining tool and you should be using it. Once you use it on a large pull, you'll never not use it again.

There's a lot of MP management during all of this, but that is what makes DRK such an engaging job to play. It doesn't have the same defensive capability as a PLD, but that is the intent behind its design. It's designed to be a very offensive minded tank that also builds aggro very quickly. It is an absolute AoE monster that definitely shines during large pulls. Don't be afraid to use Living Dead either. It's another defensive tool at your disposal, and I would not wait till you're at critical HP to pop it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

snip

---

Popping your defensives during a pull is actually very inefficient and tends to result in wasting most of the up-time on them. With all defensive cooldowns that are gated by a recast timer you want to maximize their effectiveness by timing them with the greatest periods of incoming damage. In a mass or long pull that tends to be approximately 2 or so seconds after you stop when all the enemies, including the stragglers, have caught up to you and are now attacking you.

I personally tend to queue up Salted Earth so that it is ready to be placed as I am getting near to stopping, place it where I will be tanking, spend approx. 1 or so seconds making sure positioning is good. At this point the enemies that were chasing me should be catching up so I pop whatever defensive I will be using for this pull plus Blood Price, throw out my initial burst AoE enmity to build my cushion and then start in on my AoE rotation.

Really one of the best "defensive" abilities to use during the actual process of pulling is Sprint. If you put enough distance between yourself and the mobs chasing you by outpacing them slightly, they can't hit you and you take little to no damage from them. Just keep in mind where the rest of your party is and ask them to use sprint as well if they keep falling too far behind.

While you may mitigate a little bit of fluff damage by popping your weaker defensives during a pull, as you said, you should be using those weaker ones in your basic defensive rotation. As has been stressed before, while using these weaker defensives by themselves may provide little defense, stacking them together can pretty much make them just as effective as something like Rampart.
Anticipation is on a 60s cooldown and so can be used almost , if not every large pull. It's availability makes it good for popping after your main defensive has run out and you want a little more protection until the mobs have been thinned enough to where their damage is negligible.
With Convalescence and Awareness on 120s, they can then be planned for and stacked with every other use of Anticipation to provide a good amount of protection.

Specific to DRK, DA+Abyssal Drain is a must for survivability for big pulls pre-70. Also the DA effect for Dark Passenger does great damage, great enmity and has a blind effect. It is an amazing ability to use when you stop to take on the mobs of a large pull, it has a bit of everything you want built into it; offense, burst enmity and defense. Sole Survivor needs to pretty much be used as part of your defensive rotation as well. Getting that bit of HP and MP boost in the middle of a fight helps a lot. Lastly, to make sure you have enough MP for the next pull, when you get down to the inevitable last couple of mobs in a pack, just spam your Soul Eater combo or just Hard Slash -> Syphon Strike if really low. This is the point in a large pull where your damage contribution to the group is going to matter the least since the DPS are just going to kill them pretty quickly, so it's better to use that time to get yourself ready for the next pull by preparing your resources.

New DRK players really just need to actually learn what the jobs' abilities are and what they do. If players are only relying on the one-button-press defensives like Rampart, Shadow Wall, etc. , then they are not paying enough attention to their toolkit.

Honestly, the biggest problem with DRKs mass pulling while not having TBN is that they don't have the necessary synergy of TBN and Quietus to fuel their basic AoE resource gain which is kind of necessary for taking on large groups.

Overall the best thing any tank playing any of the jobs in any dungeon content can do to increase their survivability is to pay attention to and learn the dungeons so that they learn the pulls and what defensive cooldowns they can pair with them.
Learn and plan ahead and you should do fine, only play reactively and you're going to have a bad time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Popping your defensives during a pull is actually very inefficient and tends to result in wasting most of the up-time on them. With all defensive cooldowns that are gated by a recast timer you want to maximize their effectiveness by timing them with the greatest periods of incoming damage. In a mass or long pull that tends to be approximately 2 or so seconds after you stop when all the enemies, including the stragglers, have caught up to you and are now attacking you.

I personally tend to queue up Salted Earth so that it is ready to be placed as I am getting near to stopping, place it where I will be tanking, spend approx. 1 or so seconds making sure positioning is good. At this point the enemies that were chasing me should be catching up so I pop whatever defensive I will be using for this pull plus Blood Price, throw out my initial burst AoE enmity to build my cushion and then start in on my AoE rotation.

---

I totally understand where you are coming from when it comes to uptime. Proper/optimal CD rotation is going to be efficient by pure happenstance. Using a CD during a pull is more aimed at Anticipation than Awareness. Being on a 60 second cooldown means that you are going to get more use out of it the sooner you use it. Depending on the groups DPS, you'll be able to use it multiple times during a large pull which entails the pull itself and the stopping point. Your stronger mitigative CDs should definitely be held until the stopping point to maximize how much incoming damage they shave off throughout their duration because every single hit is mitigated while they are active. For something like Anticipation, which only increases the rate at which you parry, you can be much more liberal with its use. This can also apply to Awareness because mob crits are also RNG dependent, but the two minute CD my advice and preference is to use it depending on the situation.

In terms of Salted Earth, the uptime is also a factor and because of this I prefer to weave it between GCDs. You want to maximize its damage along with how much it fills the blood gauge. Pre-casting before the pull is done is going to easily lose you 1-2 ticks, and the amount of damage you lose increases the more mobs you pull. We have to remember that bubbles now immediately activate upon their use making weaving them much more optimal.

Quote:

---

Really one of the best "defensive" abilities to use during the actual process of pulling is Sprint. If you put enough distance between yourself and the mobs chasing you by outpacing them slightly, they can't hit you and you take little to no damage from them. Just keep in mind where the rest of your party is and ask them to use sprint as well if they keep falling too far behind.

---

While I do agree here somewhat, sprint isn't required to outpace mobs. There is no avoiding damage entirely during the pull no matter what you do because you're going to get auto attacked once you're in range, very similar to why you will always see your own auto attack in the log before your weaponskill in your opener. Also, using sprint in a PUG often has lead me to taking even more damage because healers tend to not even know it exists outside of sanctuaries. If you know you have a good group who is going to keep up, sprint can definitely be used to help create distance between you and the chasing mobs.

Quote:

---

While you may mitigate a little bit of fluff damage by popping your weaker defensives during a pull, as you said, you should be using those weaker ones in your basic defensive rotation. As has been stressed before, while using these weaker defensives by themselves may provide little defense, stacking them together can pretty much make them just as effective as something like Rampart.
Anticipation is on a 60s cooldown and so can be used almost , if not every large pull. It's availability makes it good for popping after your main defensive has run out and you want a little more protection until the mobs have been thinned enough to where their damage is negligible.

---

I would not underestimate how much damage you take during a large pull. Yes, you want to rotate your CDs so you always have something to use when incoming damage is heavy, and use a strong CD in combination with a weaker one. Your strong CDs are Shadow Wall and Rampart, and the weaker ones I use are Convalescence and Awareness; throughout my days of pulling as DRK, Anticipation has been able to be used far more liberally than anything else because its CD is so short. Basically, pop it whenever it is up and you're also getting hit. Also have faith in your healer until they show otherwise, and don't forget you also have Living Dead.

Quote:

---

Honestly, the biggest problem with DRKs mass pulling while not having TBN is that they don't have the necessary synergy of TBN and Quietus to fuel their basic AoE resource gain which is kind of necessary for taking on large groups.

---

Not true. I've been mass pulling with my DRK since lv50. After level 50, we don't get a single mitigative tool until lv70. You have to make use of your other abilities such as DA+Abysmal Drain, Sole Survivor and Blood abilities to either increase timers, replenish MP for more ADs, and kill things faster. Mass pulling as DRK is seriously a lot of fun even before TBN. Again, if you learn how to sustain yourself prior to getting it; it only makes it that much better because it essentially becomes a very fast way to fill the Blood gauge at that point while also reducing damage.

Quote:

---

Overall the best thing any tank playing any of the jobs in any dungeon content can do to increase their survivability is to pay attention to and learn the dungeons so that they learn the pulls and what defensive cooldowns they can pair with them.
Learn and plan ahead and you should do fine, only play reactively and you're going to have a bad time.

---

Totally agree with you here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

In terms of Salted Earth, the uptime is also a factor and because of this I prefer to weave it between GCDs. You want to maximize its damage along with how much it fills the blood gauge. Pre-casting before the pull is done is going to easily lose you 1-2 ticks, and the amount of damage you lose increases the more mobs you pull. We have to remember that bubbles now immediately activate upon their use making weaving them much more optimal.

---

I think there was a misunderstanding on what I was saying I do; I don't precast it, I prep it. Because Salted Earth is a targeted ground AoE it takes two clicks to place it unless you are using a macro. So when I am getting close to where I am stopping my pull, I press Salted Earth to bring up the ground target and basically just have it moving along in front of me as I go. Then when I am going to stop I actually drop it right as I hit the point where I am stopping, basically dropping it right in front of me as I run through it to the far edge of its area. Within the slight delay of it registering and being placed, I should already be through it and all the trailing mobs should be just entering it. No ticks wasted, no GCDs or spaces for OGCDs wasted and it makes it very apparent when and where I am stopping.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

While I do agree here somewhat, sprint isn't required to outpace mobs. There is no avoiding damage entirely during the pull no matter what you do because you're going to get auto attacked once you're in range, very similar to why you will always see your own auto attack in the log before your weaponskill in your opener. Also, using sprint in a PUG often has lead me to taking even more damage because healers tend to not even know it exists outside of sanctuaries. If you know you have a good group who is going to keep up, sprint can definitely be used to help create distance between you and the chasing mobs.

---

Yes, it is pretty much impossible to avoid all damage when pulling but with proper pathing (i.e. choosing the best route to run during the pull), not stopping or slowing down and proper utilization of Sprint you can negate most auto-attacks to where even in a long pull what damage you do receive is barely more than a tickle.

I have personally found the above to be far more effective for reducing damage during a long pull than popping defensives.
If I have the choice of using Anticipation while pulling but not having it available for when I stop to fight, or not having it available during the pull because I am using it while I am actually fighting the mobs, I will always go for the latter since it will prevent far more damage.

Also, your concern about using Sprint in PUGs is precisely why I said " Just keep in mind where the rest of your party is and ask them to use sprint as well if they keep falling too far behind." I have had very little trouble with PUGs keeping up when I hit sprint since even if they don't use it they tend to only be a few seconds behind and if it ever does become a problem I just communicate with them.

I will agree that using Anticipation while pulling could help a tank that is having trouble taking too much damage during that time, I just know that there are other ways to avoid damage during pulls that don't require using a defensive ability that could be better put to use elsewhere and that they will likely be better served simply getting better at making long pulls quickly and effectively.

The one time that I would maybe recommend using it during the pulling process would be when killing the packs of mobs is taking so long that it is available for both the pull and the fight, but if that is the case there are likely bigger problems going on with the group.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

Not true. I've been mass pulling with my DRK since lv50. After level 50, we don't get a single mitigative tool until lv70. You have to make use of your other abilities such as DA+Abysmal Drain, Sole Survivor and Blood abilities to either increase timers, replenish MP for more ADs, and kill things faster. Mass pulling as DRK is seriously a lot of fun even before TBN. Again, if you learn how to sustain yourself prior to getting it; it only makes it that much better because it essentially becomes a very fast way to fill the Blood gauge at that point while also reducing damage.

---

What exactly isn't true?

While it sucks that DRK doesn't get any new defensive abilities between 50 and 70, they have more than adequate defenses to take anything the game is going to throw at them at that point, even when mass pulling.

If you mean that it isn't necessary to take on large groups, I meant more necessary to effectively take on big groups. Yes you can take on big groups and use AoEs without TBN but it feels terrible in comparison to when you have it. You of course need to use your other abilities to build resources without it but it feels like fighting in molasses.
The interplay between TBN and Quietus was obviously designed as the linchpin of the way DRK fights large groups, hence my opinion of the lack of that interaction being the worst part about not having TBN for mass pulls. The lack of extra defense is easily overcome with proper ability usage but having your resource generation slowed to a relative crawl just plain sucks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

I think there was a misunderstanding on what I was saying I do; I don't precast it, I prep it. Because Salted Earth is a targeted ground AoE it takes two clicks to place it unless you are using a macro. So when I am getting close to where I am stopping my pull, I press Salted Earth to bring up the ground target and basically just have it moving along in front of me as I go. Then when I am going to stop I actually drop it right as I hit the point where I am stopping, basically dropping it right in front of me as I run through it to the far edge of its area. Within the slight delay of it registering and being placed, I should already be through it and all the trailing mobs should be just entering it. No ticks wasted, no GCDs or spaces for OGCDs wasted and it makes it very apparent when and where I am stopping.

---

That's not quite what I am misunderstanding. What I am misunderstanding is if you are using sprint to create distance between you and the mobs to avoid auto attacks and it takes them a couple of seconds to catch up to you, how are you not wasting ticks from it by placing it at your stopping point instead of weaving? I could possibly see this if you are not using sprint, but then we're back at using Anticipation to reduce some damage during the pull. Which again, it is on such a short cooldown, and you have no other strong mitigative CDs to combine it with as a DRK. It's also a preference to ask your group to sprint with you. You are the only tank I've ever heard of doing this, as I have never had a tank ask this of any group I was a part of. They either use it, or don't and the same applies to the group following him.

We'll probably just have to agree to disagree or chalk it up to our preferences on large pulls.

Quote:

---

What exactly isn't true?

---

That TBN and Quietist are necessary to take on large groups. That is what you stated before changing your statement to effectively. That I will not argue with because there is no question that TBN+Quietist makes pulling large groups a lot easier to handle for the DRK and the healer.

Sure, it can be a drag being synced below 70, but prior to getting there you don't really know what you're missing from your toolkit because you have yet to obtain it. This is true for just about all jobs in the game, not just DRK. It's why so many players dislike having to re-run lower content because they can feel less effective without their entire kit. It makes sense. No doubt there, and I feel the same way. However my initial statements to the OP was to address the 'squishiness" of DRK. And I would much rather advise him on how to make it feel less squishy than to simply say, "suck it up until level 70 when you get TBN."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

At level 50, you are no different from the other tanks when it comes to role skills.

---

That's assuming (wrongly) that the rest of the kit is the same. Honestly the tanks are so far apart at 50 it's laughable. The only place the gap closes is at 70, and then it's only slightly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

That's not quite what I am misunderstanding. What I am misunderstanding is if you are using sprint to create distance between you and the mobs to avoid auto attacks and it takes them a couple of seconds to catch up to you, how are you not wasting ticks from it by placing it at your stopping point instead of weaving? I could possibly see this if you are not using sprint, but then we're back at using Anticipation to reduce some damage during the pull. Which again, it is on such a short cooldown, and you have no other strong mitigative CDs to combine it with as a DRK. It's also a preference to ask your group to sprint with you. You are the only tank I've ever heard of doing this, as I have never had a tank ask this of any group I was a part of. They either use it, or don't and the same applies to the group following him.

We'll probably just have to agree to disagree or chalk it up to our preferences on large pulls.

---

Generally speaking you stop just past the last group, so if you say pull 3 groups, sprint is only getting you substantially ahead of the first, slightly the second, and is just getting you to the far side of the third. Since most dungeon/raid trash mobs produce group aggro rather than individual aggro, the first mob initiates all of them, and by the time they begin moving your generally very close to the furthest down mob of the pack.
In his example (using a 3 group pull), by the time he hits Salted Earth Group 3 is on him, Group 2 is probably just outside of the range, Group 1 is probably going to take a second to get in range regardless because of object occlusion at that point. So if every group has 4 mobs for example, by the time that Salted Earth starts ticking probably 6-8 mobs are in range, 4-6 will be there by tick 3, delaying it til you hit all 12 will likely be more detrimental for cooldown alignment than it will for loss of aoe dmg.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

~snippet~

---

Pretty sure this was the general principle of where you were going with it, correct me if I'm wrong.

I can relate to this as well. I'm level 65 and doing bigger pulls on stuff as a DRK makes me so nervous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OcieKo

Pretty sure this was the general principle of where you were going with it, correct me if I'm wrong.

---

Pretty much.

I didn't go much into it previously but you also need to account for the fact that Salted Earth is a two-click free roaming/free target cast which, while ogcd, still can take longer to get out than many realize.
Every time you use it you need to click once to activate it, check for the location of the ground marker, adjust the ground marker as necessary and then click again to place it. Even if you are very practiced in doing this it can easily lead to clipping your other attacks and abilities during a period of high activity such as the first few seconds of stopping to fight in a big pull where you are trying to establish your group aggro lead and use your defensives since that is the period of highest incoming damage.

In addition to the potential of clipping or delaying abilities, the couple ticks missing a few mobs at the very beginning is often, if not always, made up for by increasing the amount of time Salted Earth is affecting the mobs before they start getting killed off.
You are going to lose ticks of Salted Earth on some mobs, whether at the beginning or later as the mobs die while Salted is still running. Prepping the cast and getting it out at the beginning just shifts where that happens and frees you up to utilize your time and attention to the myriad of other abilities you want to get out as soon as possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Windwalker

DRK sucks at lower levels, once you get lvl 64

---

That's a big design problem. Considering how backwards thinking the skill and trait acquisition is up to 70.

DRK's toolkit is complete nonsense until the late 60's, so you're not crazy in thinking that right now. Unfortunately it seems like this expansion they made a job at 70 and worked backward instead of building at 30 and moving forward, and it shows.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Capn_Goggles

DRK's toolkit is complete nonsense until the late 60's, so you're not crazy in thinking that right now. Unfortunately it seems like this expansion they made a job at 70 and worked backward instead of building at 30 and moving forward, and it shows.

---

They changed a lot of crap in the transition to Stormblood from Heavensward to the point that vanilla Dark Knights like me had a much different leveling experience compared to those jumping in at Stormblood. Stormblood entry level players will never know how Dark Knight originally used to play and feel as.

HW leveling I feel was fine. You started out squishy but got stronger. Stormblood just feels clunky throughout the whole thing until the late 60's. Like 66. And how it's evident they based everything around TBN. TBN should have been the first skill learned in Stormblood and got into the Black Blood stuff later. But eh.