About Arevald SPOILERS

So I may have skipped the part, or it may be my lack of brains. I’m confused. I just beat that lady of serenity for the second time in the throne room. And Arevald. (Blonde hair, super sad backstory, face paint.) Well my question is: does he have the echo or a form of it?

Short answer...yes.

Long answer...

Prior to the Calamity, Minfilia ran a group called The Path of the Twelve, which brought together everyone who had the Echo that they could find, hoping to protect them from the confusion and persecution they were likely to face. (Nothing was known about the Echo at the time, and they figured they could blend in with all the other religious sects and cults in town by having a weird name like that.)

During this period, Louisoix had a group called The Circle of Knowing, which was a bunch of Sharlayan Archons going rogue of "don't meddle in the flow of history" to forestall the coming Calamity. Louisoix eventually sacrificed himself for this plan, telling Minfilia she should be prepared to succeed him.

This was the birth of the Scions of the Seventh Dawn, a much broader organization that began as a merger of these other two, now defined as anyone willing to fight everything revealed in the coming of the Calamity - the primals, the Ascians, etc.

The Scions still recruit Echo users, but by no means are they as ubiquitous as they were in the Path of the Twelve (pretty much everyone but their receptionist, Tataru). Arenvald was one such person, recruited to the Scions after having a "dream unlike any other." (The vision of the starshower.)

Arenvald is sometimes called in when we're busy.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Short answer...yes.

Long answer...

Prior to the Calamity, Minfilia ran a group called The Path of the Twelve, which brought together everyone who had the Echo that they could find, hoping to protect them from the confusion and persecution they were likely to face. (Nothing was known about the Echo at the time, and they figured they could blend in with all the other religious sects and cults in town by having a weird name like that.)

During this period, Louisoix had a group called The Circle of Knowing, which was a bunch of Sharlayan Archons going rogue of "don't meddle in the flow of history" to forestall the coming Calamity. Louisoix eventually sacrificed himself for this plan, telling Minfilia she should be prepared to succeed him.

This was the birth of the Scions of the Seventh Dawn, a much broader organization that began as a merger of these other two, now defined as anyone willing to fight everything revealed in the coming of the Calamity - the primals, the Ascians, etc.

The Scions still recruit Echo users, but by no means are they as ubiquitous as they were in the Path of the Twelve (pretty much everyone but their receptionist, Tataru). Arenvald was one such person, recruited to the Scions after having a "dream unlike any other." (The vision of the starshower.)

Arenvald is sometimes called in when we're busy.

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Thank you! That clears a lot up.

If you were to replay the story you would see that Arenvald was recruited to the Scions the same time you were, he talks about what Anonymoose mentioned in that Minfilia is collecting anyone with Echo powers.

A lot of people dont realise but he has been around for a very long time, as he once was one of the background people who hang out in the base and update their text as you do more MSQs.

Never pass up an opportunity to talk to the NPCs just standing around your quest hubs!

(Waking Sands, Rising Stones, Forgotten Knight, House Fortemps, etc.)

Hmmm.... this begs a question of how Ysayle was over looked? I mean she was clear across the continent, but you'd think there would be some way of locating echo uses. But then again, though his model might suggest otherwise Arenvald is only 19, Ysayle is/was 24.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

how Ysayle was over looked?

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Luck of the draw and statistics. Back then, people who awoke to the Echo had no idea what it was or that it was happening to anyone else. In 1.0, the player character didn't even know they were seeing visions; they wandered around confusing Echoes of 1562 for present-day events and confusing the hells out of everyone before one of Minfilia's people stumbled over them. That's not indicative of a very efficient operation in terms of swiftly identifying the majority Echo users and getting them the information they need.

Ysayle was born in (or near) Falcon's Nest back when Ishgard had sealed itself off from the world. When Ysayle relates the tale, she says the visions "came without warning" and at first terrified her so badly she wondered what she'd done to deserve them. It wasn't very long from there to the Calamity. It'd have been more surprising of one of Minfilia's people DID find her back then.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Never pass up an opportunity to talk to the NPCs just standing around your quest hubs!

(Waking Sands, Rising Stones, Forgotten Knight, House Fortemps, etc.)

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Yeah! You never know when you'll find Moenbryda drinking Thancred under the table or see a woman agonizing about her sister's desire to be sandwiched between a pair of Roegadyn brothers...or spot Noraxia disguised as a highlander with green face paint so the others can stop screaming when they see her...or discover a male Miqo'te who hangs out with Arenvald who happens to be interested in a male Hyur conjurer...or notice the Nutkin of Modesty hanging out with Thancred in the Rising Stones...

I can't recall seeing that Conjurer lately, though I'm glad the Arenvald squad seems to be out of harm's way these days. V'mah has not only outlived (literally and figuratively) many of his brethren, but also holds the dubious honor of being the first male Miqo'te NPC to appear in a major MSQ cutscene (Stormblood's ending sing-along), four whole years after they became playable!

I also appreciate the coincidence that he looked like my P2 alt color up until I changed my hair.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Ysayle was born in (or near) Falcon's Nest back when Ishgard had sealed itself off from the world. When Ysayle relates the tale, she says the visions "came without warning" and at first terrified her so badly she wondered what she'd done to deserve them. It wasn't very long from there to the Calamity. It'd have been more surprising of one of Minfilia's people DID find her back then.

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When did Ysayle start dabbling in becoming Shiva? Since, that could have also had an effect on how she was passed over. Like, it seems that much of the Scions detection is based on proximity. Meanwhile, when we're encountering Ysayle, she's the leader of the cult of Heretics and claiming to be the reincarnation of Shiva. Which kind of made getting close to her pretty tricky outside of either smashing your way through all the Heretics or probably being all sneaky like Thancred to get past them.

Meanwhile any murmurings of potential Echo activity could also be passed off as just typical cult hearsay about the strange powers their leader has...

The fact that it was pretty tricky to get through Ishgard, let alone travel all the way to Tailfeather (Or even to Anyx Trine, because she did befriend the dragons there, suggesting she might have spent a fair amount of time there. Which would mean, navigating your way past a bunch of dragons whom hate people...) would have also kind of hampered the ability to get to Ysayle.

On a side note: What's the deal with Shiva? Like, the way Hraesvelgr talks about her it seemed as though she was just a regular woman. But then Ysayle becomes a Primal and then Shiva is this sexy ice queen with a whole ton of icy magic of death. It confuses me because if the real Shiva was all icy death magic in real life, what's the deal with people stealing dragon eyes for power instead of doing whatever she did to become a sexy ice queen?

Then if real Shiva wasn't all icy death magic in real life... What was Ysayle's primal transformation based off?

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Then if real Shiva wasn't all icy death magic in real life... What was Ysayle's primal transformation based off?

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Her own dreams and ideas of what Shiva might have been like.
As for where her powers come from - the same as for all other primals and primal-like beings - belief and a hefty supply of concentrated aether.

Ysalye was cut off from the rest of Eorzea in a lot of ways. Aside from just being in Ishgard, she got trapped in Dravania after the Calamity when Corethas' weather became snow all the time. It was during the five year time skip between 1.0 and 2.0 that she had visions for the first time and ran into Vidofnir and Hrasevelgr. So she's pretty much in the backwater of backwaters.

All primals are based on their summoner's beliefs about whatever it is that they are summoning. Many of the primals come off differently then what the myths told about them say they are like for that reason. In Lore Book I, it's speculated that Shiva is based not just on the historic Shiva but also on the Heretics' take on Halone. The idea is that the Heretics have conflated their view of Halone with Shiva and have combined their two personalities and spheres of influences somewhat. To say that most primals are based of the images people have in their heads about whatever they are summoning isn't that far off of what happens. We can see this with Tuskiyomi (Yotsuyu summons her as female, when most stories say Tuskiyomi is male), and Bismark and Lakshmi. In the latter two cases, the people who worship those god/desses say the primal can't be the real god/dess because it's nothing like the one they actually do worship. And they view it as a false version of their true god.

As far as we know, Shiva was a normal woman who fell in love with a dragon (and vice versa) and when she found out her death would cause the dragon to be lonely, she told the dragon to go ahead and eat her so that her soul could always be with the dragon's soul. Hrasevelgr pretty much tells Ysayle that her view of Shiva isn't based on reality, but on Ysayle's ideas about Shiva instead. This causes Ysayle to question what she is doing since Ysayle seems to really have thought that she was an incarnation of Shiva.

We seem to always learn new things about Primals, but the one constant seems to be, a belief given corporeal form.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Never pass up an opportunity to talk to the NPCs just standing around your quest hubs!

(Waking Sands, Rising Stones, Forgotten Knight, House Fortemps, etc.)

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And standing around outside quest hubs too! Any time you have major characters in the area, you should talk to them. Always speak to the quest-objective person last! And it can be worthwhile detouring to speak to important characters elsewhere if they might have something to say about the current story events.

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Originally Posted by AmemeAmeklin

Yeah! You never know when you'll find Moenbryda drinking Thancred under the table or see a woman agonizing about her sister's desire to be sandwiched between a pair of Roegadyn brothers...or spot Noraxia disguised as a highlander with green face paint so the others can stop screaming when they see her...or discover a male Miqo'te who hangs out with Arenvald who happens to be interested in a male Hyur conjurer...or notice the Nutkin of Modesty hanging out with Thancred in the Rising Stones...

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I never saw the nutkin! When was that?

And actually Noraxia's Hyuran disguise is a male Midlander! Though I didn't realise it until my third time through, when I'd happened to be looking at character designs just before and realised she he that one was using a male-only hairstyle. Sylph gender is canonically weird and isn't really male/female, but both times we've seen sylphs disguised as Hyurans (the other being Silbexio from the beast tribe finale) they've been the opposite of what their pronouns indicate.


I've also been trying to keep note of the other minor adventurers we see around at a few points, because they do seem to be reoccurring - eg. that Hyuran conjurer was one of the adventurers we recruited from Revenant's Toll to help defend the Steps of Faith. And from that same 'recruitment' quest, there was a female Roegadyn mage in a Darklight robe who has reappeared at the Rising Stones post-HW named Bluomwyda; she seems to be friends with Aergmhus.

Looking at my notes it's also reminded me of one of the best encounters, right near the end of post-ARR: Thancred being confronted by all his old girlfriends at once!

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Her own dreams and ideas of what Shiva might have been like.

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It still seems odd to me though.

Given that she literally experienced Hraesvelgr's past and would know that Shiva was just a regular woman who simply wanted the D(ragon).

I suppose, her mind was kind of warped, since she apparently took on feelings of love for Hraesvelgr (Since when she talks to him later she refers to him as "My love" as if she really was Shiva). But still, seems like a bit of a stretch to go from regular woman to sexy ice queen after knowing Hrae's past so knowing about Shiva and likely knowing about Ratatoskr's death for her eyes to gain power (Suggesting again, that Shiva was just a regular woman)

Unless she just personally wanted power and thus decided to try and obtain it and did so by claiming Shiva was a sexy ice queen despite knowing otherwise (Which wouldn't really explain her own belief being able to power the primal abilities, nor the fact that when isolated from the people she was deceiving that she still maintained that she was the incarnation of Shiva herself)

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Originally Posted by Kalise

It still seems odd to me though.

Given that she literally experienced Hraesvelgr's past and would know that Shiva was just a regular woman who simply wanted the D(ragon).

I suppose, her mind was kind of warped, since she apparently took on feelings of love for Hraesvelgr (Since when she talks to him later she refers to him as "My love" as if she really was Shiva). But still, seems like a bit of a stretch to go from regular woman to sexy ice queen after knowing Hrae's past so knowing about Shiva and likely knowing about Ratatoskr's death for her eyes to gain power (Suggesting again, that Shiva was just a regular woman)

Unless she just personally wanted power and thus decided to try and obtain it and did so by claiming Shiva was a sexy ice queen despite knowing otherwise (Which wouldn't really explain her own belief being able to power the primal abilities, nor the fact that when isolated from the people she was deceiving that she still maintained that she was the incarnation of Shiva herself)

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But i think there's a point you're missing here love.

By the time of Ysayle Shiva had long been canonized as a saint. Even when Ysayle transforms into "her" she calls specifically upon the power of "Saint Shiva". Now while i'm not entirely sure about the traditions of saints in Ishgardian culture i'm just gonna assume it works kinda close to the catholic notion of what a saint is (since the ishgardian church is basically Catholicism for dragon-hating elves).

In a very condensed definition a saint is somebody who performed miracles in their lifetime and so is believed to become a entity very close to God after their death. In a sense this would also mean a saint becomes much more "powerful" after they die. While mortal Shiva was apparently nothing special in the powers department Saint Shiva was a legendary figure even among the ishgardian priests. Even if Ysayle felt some of her feeling and saw some of her memories (i'm 99% sure Hraesvelgr says she only saw broken memories or something) that would only serve to strengthen her faith in Shiva's saintly figure.

And as Primals are faith and belief given physical form the form she assumes is not of the mortal Shiva but that of Saint Shiva, patron of the heretics. Also be mindful that a Primal based on a specific figure is at best a very distorted reflection of the original subject and at worse something completly different. Tiamat was Bahamut's lover but even she could not conjure a faithful version of him as a Primal.

Any primal summoning comes out warped in some way. See: Thordan and the knights twelve, who appeared as 20 foot tall knights in crazy armor similar in scale to the statues in the city, even though our Echo showed them to be perfectly normal Elezen men.

Interestingly, anything summoned by the WoL is a faithful recreation (See: DRK 30-50, 60-70 quests), virtually indistinguishable from life beyond the fact that they simply should not be there (because they're dead).

Ysayle had lost her entire community in the Calamity and wandered until she found the Tailfeather hunters and the dragons. Her survivor's guilt may have led her to trying to escape being herself in favor of being a reincarnation of Shiva. In that way, she deluded herself.

As far as Shiva being a primal of ice, if you listen to the lyrics of Oblivion it is very clear Ysayle was freezing to death when she had her echo vision of Shiva from Hraesvelgr and experiences fragmented memories of Shiva and then miraculously survives. It isn't strange when she summons her version of Shiva as a primal that Ysayle associates her with ice, or ice with power. Oblivion and certain points in the story where Ysayle speaks as if she thinks she is Shiva reborn and not just a primal host makes me agree that Ysayle unconsciously cast away her own identity in favor of "Shiva" as a way to forget how helpless she was in the Calamity, or of everything and one she lost. This is part of why she goes near-catatonic when Hraesvelgr tells her the truth about Shiva and the war.

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Originally Posted by Naria

As far as Shiva being a primal of ice, if you listen to the lyrics of Oblivion it is very clear Ysayle was freezing to death when she had her echo vision of Shiva from Hraesvelgr and experiences fragmented memories of Shiva and then miraculously survives. It isn't strange when she summons her version of Shiva as a primal that Ysayle associates her with ice, or ice with power. Oblivion and certain points in the story where Ysayle speaks as if she thinks she is Shiva reborn and not just a primal host makes me agree that Ysayle unconsciously cast away her own identity in favor of "Shiva" as a way to forget how helpless she was in the Calamity, or of everything and one she lost. This is part of why she goes near-catatonic when Hraesvelgr tells her the truth about Shiva and the war.

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This is true. The visions she received made her believe she was Shiva reborn. And, while we don't know if reincarnation exist on Hydaelyn, Hraesvalgr makes sure to tell her that she is not "his" Shiva. That's why the Primal Shiva is an amalgamation of Saint Shiva, Halone, and Ysayle herself. Also, the thing about Saint Shiva is that her following is one that follows historical references similar to the real world, though in reverse most likely. Only in recent generations has she become known as the Pateon Saint of the Heretics. Prior to that she was considered a Saint as the woman who brought peace to man and the dragons.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I never saw the nutkin! When was that?

And actually Noraxia's Hyuran disguise is a male Midlander! Though I didn't realise it until my third time through, when I'd happened to be looking at character designs just before and realised she he that one was using a male-only hairstyle. Sylph gender is canonically weird and isn't really male/female, but both times we've seen sylphs disguised as Hyurans (the other being Silbexio from the beast tribe finale) they've been the opposite of what their pronouns indicate.

...

Looking at my notes it's also reminded me of one of the best encounters, right near the end of post-ARR: Thancred being confronted by all his old girlfriends at once!

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I have screenshots of both so I'd have to go dig up the one of Noraxia to see. I remember staring at it for a while and thinking it was sort of androgynous anyway.

The nutkin was some time in Heavensward and it's super tiny so I'm not surprised you missed it. In fact I almost didn't notice myself, except through some happy accident where I happened to go AFK in the Rising Stones and my idle cam kicked in. I wandered back in time to see it focused on a nutkin and promptly looked for it. It was just behind Thancred as he was hanging out near the exit. This is after you locate him in the wilderness of the forelands and he manages to reach Mor Dhona.

Thancred surrounded by women while Yda laughed hysterically in the corner and Papalymo tutted disapprovingly was pretty great. I remember the lead up to that scene took quite a few quests, too. Thancred had Yda meet one of them to get some sort of special material but the woman got super mad when she saw Yda, much to Yda's confusion...there's more to it but I can't remember.

I think another favorite of mine is Yda and Hoary Boulder getting into a squatting contest.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

This is true. The visions she received made her believe she was Shiva reborn. And, while we don't know if reincarnation exist on Hydaelyn, Hraesvalgr makes sure to tell her that she is not "his" Shiva. That's why the Primal Shiva is an amalgamation of Saint Shiva, Halone, and Ysayle herself. Also, the thing about Saint Shiva is that her following is one that follows historical references similar to the real world, though in reverse most likely. Only in recent generations has she become known as the Pateon Saint of the Heretics. Prior to that she was considered a Saint as the woman who brought peace to man and the dragons.

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Reincarnation does exist in some form as we told this nearly every time the Lifestream is brought up. In regards to the original Shiva's soul, Hraesvalgr made it sound like he absorbed it into him, I'm guessing in much the same way Primal does. So that is how he knows Ysayle can't be the reincarnation of Shiva, because her soul never returned to the Lifestream to be reborn again.

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Originally Posted by Nightsword

Reincarnation does exist in some form as we told this nearly every time the Lifestream is brought up.

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Not reincarnation as it is usually known. Souls return to the Lifestream when people die, but once there they slowly dissolve, and when returned to the world as aether there is nothing left you could recognise as a soul.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Not reincarnation as it is usually known. Souls return to the Lifestream when people die, but once there they slowly dissolve, and when returned to the world as aether there is nothing left you could recognise as a soul.

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Well...

Unless you believe the Dotharl that is.

What if the Dotharl (and others on the Azim Steppe) are isolated from the Lifestream and that's why they reincarnate the way they do? /tinfoilhat

hmmmmm

I wouldn't be surprised if there really is something to all the Dotharl beliefs. At least for the Xaela. Steppe culture is ancient and has outlasted basically every other civilization we know of. There were already there when all the Allagans ripped the world apart and permanently changed the flow and balance of aether in the region. It's reasonable to think that there may be aftereffects.

There is that one quest where that Dothral asks you to come along to the crooked coin I think so they can stop reincarnating.

The Xaela as we know them go back to the 4th Astral Era. Which is still older then any other "living" culture in the game so far.

We do however, know that the Allagans were in the Steppe during the Allagan Era. The Steppe seems to be where the Allagan scientists (probably Amon) had the power-source that launched both Azys Lla and Dalamud. However, that power source would have been cut off from the rest of the Allagan Empire when the 4th Umbral Calamity happened. It's not that far-fetched though, to think that all the Xaela magic is surviving bits of Allagan magic. Particularly the Xaela magic that is used to animate stone and other objects. It's almost like they figured out a way to keep the Allagan practice of constructs going enough without the needed tech.

The Dortharl's belief in reincarnation matches up pretty well with the Eorzean theories of Echo-users reincarnating every time an Umbral Era is about to occur. It's just on a way faster timetable.

All that said, reincarnation is rather unlikly. The Lifestream/Aetheria Sea is basically a big blender of all the aether in it. It takes the aether that falls into it and rips it up into just aether (as opposed to souls, memories, etc.), which is then reborn. Getting lost in the Lifestream (teleporting wrong, etc.) is really dangerous because of this. Most beings effectively die by coming in contact with the Lifestream proper. They need some sort of interference (the Echo, Hydalyn) to prevent them from being swept away by it.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

All that said, reincarnation is rather unlikly. The Lifestream/Aetheria Sea is basically a big blender of all the aether in it. It takes the aether that falls into it and rips it up into just aether (as opposed to souls, memories, etc.), which is then reborn. Getting lost in the Lifestream (teleporting wrong, etc.) is really dangerous because of this. Most beings effectively die by coming in contact with the Lifestream proper. They need some sort of interference (the Echo, Hydalyn) to prevent them from being swept away by it.

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This is true. It's exactly what happened with Y'shtola, and partially with Thancred. I say partially mostly cause he got spat out, she didn't.

Is there a definitive list somewhere of known, living Echo users? Other than Ascians and Warriors of Darkness...? I also assume Midgardsormr has the Echo, but I am not sure it has been stated outright.

I was very confused when I started, since I had played a little of 1.0, when I came back to the 2.0 version I assumed the Scions were the Path of the Twelve under a new name, and it was all Echo-users except Tataru. I actually assumed the twins had the echo right up until Alisaie ran off from Susano.

Now I think the only ones in the Scions who had were the Warrior of Light (and other players), Minfilia, Arvenald, and Krile...? Or were there others?

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Originally Posted by Eyvind

Is there a definitive list somewhere of known, living Echo users? Other than Ascians and Warriors of Darkness...? I also assume Midgardsormr has the Echo, but I am not sure it has been stated outright.

I was very confused when I started, since I had played a little of 1.0, when I came back to the 2.0 version I assumed the Scions were the Path of the Twelve under a new name, and it was all Echo-users except Tataru. I actually assumed the twins had the echo right up until Alisaie ran off from Susano.

Now I think the only ones in the Scions who had were the Warrior of Light (and other players), Minfilia, Arvenald, and Krile...? Or were there others?

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https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki..._with_the_Echo

* The Warrior of Light
* The Warriors of Darkness
* The Ascians
* Minfilia Warde
* Krile Mayer Baldesion
* Unukalhai
* Arenvald Lentinus
* Unnamed Sahagin priest
* Fordola rem Lupis (artificial)
* Zenos yae Galvus (artificial)