Since we want to remove positional and tank stance, can we just remove healing too?

It's getting in the way of my dps tbh. Just make it so hp regenerates itself faster.

Also each class has way too many buttons, can we just make it 3 per job? It's not fair that people should have to extend any effort to learn anything, god, its just a game.

At this point we should all be blue mages and lock ourselves out of every content that exist, except masked carnival. Thats true solo play.

Did you actually read that thread? Almost no one wants tank stances removed.

And are you really going to pretend like ability bloat isn't a thing? That needing three, or even four hotbars isn't completely insane?

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

And are you really going to pretend like ability bloat isn't a thing? That needing three, or even four hotbars isn't completely insane?

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It's a thing, but each issue contributes at most one button apiece towards button bloat, while certain jobs have 40+ buttons. To treat them as relevant stretches to the breaking point.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

And are you really going to pretend like ability bloat isn't a thing? That needing three, or even four hotbars isn't completely insane?

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I hope we get more passive buffs/ability upgrades as opposed to new ones. Unless they decide to rework how a class should work; but right now it seems like almost all the classes play well and are fun to play. (please leave BRD's songs alone)

Ability pruning sucks and sometimes hurts the class since core and/or iconic abilities are removed or gutted. WoW does it every expansion and people hate it.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

Did you actually read that thread? Almost no one wants tank stances removed.

And are you really going to pretend like ability bloat isn't a thing? That needing three, or even four hotbars isn't completely insane?

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Ability bloat isnt a thing though.
Some skills can afford to be optimised and conbined or cut for ergonomic efficiency, but there aren't any jobs that can't have their entire skill set fit into 32 slots, which is 1 xhotbar and the expanded xhotbar.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

And are you really going to pretend like ability bloat isn't a thing? That needing three, or even four hotbars isn't completely insane?

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You're holding onto a part of what was said. Jobs having too many buttons that can be merged together or outright removed wouldn't (or at least, shouldn't) result in 3 buttons per job like what we got in the Y'shtola fight in the Steppe. And given that people complained about that fight too, the OP's point holds all the more

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

You're holding onto a part of what was said. Jobs having too many buttons that can be merged together or outright removed wouldn't (or at least, shouldn't) result in 3 buttons per job like what we got in the Y'shtola fight in the Steppe. And given that people complained about that fight too, the OP's point holds all the more

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Wait people actually complained about playing as Y'shtola??? Did they feel it was too simple? Or did the concept of using focus target on Hien and popping cure II here and there blow their minds?

can we also remove useless topics too?

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

Wait people actually complained about playing as Y'shtola??? Did they feel it was too simple? Or did the concept of using focus target on Hien and popping cure II here and there blow their minds?

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There was at least one thread of someone legitimately complaining that the fight was "too hard".

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

There was at least one thread of someone legitimately complaining that the fight was "too hard".

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Yes!!! I remember that thread. Even with four buttons to use, they couldn't do it - like, the bar is already low enough for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

but there aren't any jobs that can't have their entire skill set fit into 32 slots, which is 1 xhotbar and the expanded xhotbar.

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PLD has 28 native skills. So, even before the role actions update, you already technically needed one more slot (I personally put Tempered Will there) and that's without the Limit Break, Sprint and item actions, that you might want to have a quick access to.

You could remove at least 4 slots by having each combo fused on a single slot and making Sword Oath a passive buff negated by Shield Oath. Technically, Total Ecplipse could also only be an upgraded Flash, it would change much.

And it's still safe to assume that SH will give us some new actions and not simply revamp what already exists.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Ability bloat isnt a thing though.
Some skills can afford to be optimised and conbined or cut for ergonomic efficiency, but there aren't any jobs that can't have their entire skill set fit into 32 slots, which is 1 xhotbar and the expanded xhotbar.

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AST with undraw, de-RR, unspread, sprint, pot, LB, and role actions?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

AST with undraw, de-RR, unspread, sprint, pot, LB, and role actions?

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4870837

The undraw type skills are unnecessary, I'd rather 'get rid' of a card by using it, and I always try to spread the card I want to use before royal roading an effect I want, as that's the more efficient way to do it anyway. (If you RR an expanded, then you're relying on your next draw being worth expanding, and if you draw another spire/ewer then it's wasted entirely. If you spread a spear/balance or even arrow, then whatever you draw next can be used either on its own or to RR your held spear/balance)

As I detail in that post, I manage to fit every job and role skill I need plus sprint, mount, gysahl greens and LB. Feel free to exchange the greens for a pot when necessary.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

As I detail in that post, I manage to fit every job and role skill I need plus sprint, mount, gysahl greens and LB. Feel free to exchange the greens for a pot when necessary.

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I count Rescue, Cleric Stance, Eye for an Eye, and frigging Benefic II which aren't on your bar. It's easy to have room when you don't use a lot of skills other people do.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

I count Rescue, Cleric Stance, Eye for an Eye, and frigging Benefic II which aren't on your bar. It's easy to have room when you don't use a lot of skills other people do.

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Rescue is pointless, it's impossible to get it off in time when it's needed, it's only ever used to troll. I've only ever had it used on me either, as I said, to troll by pulling me into harms way, or way too late to make a difference.

People only started using Cleric Stance and Eye for an Eye once the role actions were expanded from 5 to 10. While Eye for and Eye might be useful, I'm a healer not a DPS, so Cleric stance will always be supernumerary to me.

I've actually macro'd Benefic and Benefic II together, so if I don't have enough MP I'll use Benefic instead of II. If you find yourself needing to use a GCD heal at all, then in all likelihood you need the higher potency one, so there's no choice to be made between the two.

Coming from playing mostly single-player console games where action-based games tend to be designed according to the number of buttons available on the controller, the sheer number of skills that you have here (and are expected to use at all times) is still bizarre to me.

You don't *need* thirty buttons to press to make a game interesting and complex. It can come from the challenge of the fight itself, doing the mechanics properly, reacting well, etc.

Or complexity of skills is added in ways that don't require extra buttons. eg. the Ratchet & Clank series, where you have a huge number of situational weapons, and will use multiple types in one fight, but at any one time you basically have Jump, Shoot, Melee and Change Weapon buttons. No weaving in extra skills, just shoot things and try not to let them shoot you. And it's fun and sometimes quite challenging.

Also, melee combos - normally you just have one button, and the combo simply happens on its own, as long as you actually hit the thing three times in a row. Three buttons are not necessary to make it "interesting".

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Coming from playing mostly single-player console games where action-based games tend to be designed according to the number of buttons available on the controller, the sheer number of skills that you have here (and are expected to use at all times) is still bizarre to me.

You don't *need* thirty buttons to press to make a game interesting and complex. It can come from the challenge of the fight itself, doing the mechanics properly, reacting well, etc.

Or complexity of skills is added in ways that don't require extra buttons. eg. the Ratchet & Clank series, where you have a huge number of situational weapons, and will use multiple types in one fight, but at any one time you basically have Jump, Shoot, Melee and Change Weapon buttons. No weaving in extra skills, just shoot things and try not to let them shoot you. And it's fun and sometimes quite challenging.

Also, melee combos - normally you just have one button, and the combo simply happens on its own, as long as you actually hit the thing three times in a row. Three buttons are not necessary to make it "interesting".

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But this isn't an action game, it's an RPG. Compare it more to other Final Fantasy games that have menu's full of spells and abilities, or the likes of Skyrim etc. with skill-trees, rather than Ratchet and Clank.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

People only started using Cleric Stance and Eye for an Eye once the role actions were expanded from 5 to 10.

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Moot point. They're available and as you yourself admitted, have uses. Even the ones you yourself don't personally use. And cool you have two skills under one slot because of a macro
tl;dr There's button bloat.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

While Eye for and Eye might be useful, I'm a healer not a DPS, so Cleric stance will always be supernumerary to me.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I've actually macro'd Benefic and Benefic II together, so if I don't have enough MP I'll use Benefic instead of II.

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Two things that still invalidate your point of "button bloat isn't a thing since you already have enough slots to put all your skills".

Besides, do you also realize that the reason you don't have more skills lacking in your bar is because casters already have something done with their button bloat, with the various masteries. Without it, you'd have three Malefic and two Combust slots, unless you tweak your bars depending on the level sync every time.

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Originally Posted by Neri

can we also remove useless topics too?

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you forgot obvious trolling as well.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

But this isn't an action game, it's an RPG. Compare it more to other Final Fantasy games that have menu's full of spells and abilities, or the likes of Skyrim etc. with skill-trees, rather than Ratchet and Clank.

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It's still an "action RPG" rather than a "turn-based RPG". That's specifically why I wrote action-based game (a description) rather than action game (a genre).

Turn-based RPGs can afford to have more skills, because you have time to navigate through the menus to select them. But for an action-based game where you are inputting your movements during a "live" battle, you need easier access to all your skills.

The defining elements of an RPG (to me) are long-form storytelling, a character that levels up with EXP and becomes stronger (and needs to equip better gear), with dungeons to explore and treasure to find.

Leveling and EXP are the thing that sets an action RPG (eg. Kingdom Hearts) apart from an action game (eg. Legend of Zelda) where your character upgrades come from finding items that make you stronger. That's my understanding of the two, anyway.

And R&C was the first thing that came to mind that gives a wide variety of skills without too many buttons, but isn't that terrible an example anyway. Yes, it's a platformer-cross-third-person-shooter but it still definitely has RPG level-up elements, moreso in later parts of the series - weapons gain EXP and level up to be more powerful, and you need to buy (and possibly grind to afford) weapons and armour.

I still want tank stances to go, because the idea itself is not contributing much into DRK and PLD gameplay.
Would be off much better if we had some more tools to manage enmity and make it more interesting.

Right now its just, go into tank stance 1-2-3 you are done, you dont even have to pull your dps meter high, it doesnt make the game any harder.
I am enjoying playing in off-stance much much more since it gives me thinking about my DPS and the enmity, and would be nice if those additional enmity tools would actually replace that provoke>shrink mechanic that is obligatory for second tank to do.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Rescue is pointless, it's impossible to get it off in time when it's needed, it's only ever used to troll. I've only ever had it used on me either, as I said, to troll by pulling me into harms way, or way too late to make a difference.

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Works fine if considered preemptively. Like every Emergency cooldown in this game, when the danger is manifest, it's too late. But use it as a scheduled KB-undo or uptime-keeper and it works just fine.

As for the rest, every skill minus three is not "every skill", bolded or not.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

But this isn't an action game, it's an RPG. Compare it more to other Final Fantasy games that have menu's full of spells and abilities, or the likes of Skyrim etc. with skill-trees, rather than Ratchet and Clank.

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That's like judging the technicals of a film's use of audio specifically within and against silent films when the film in question has no such deliberate limitations. Yes, it's a different perspective, but efficient design still follows the same final goals.

Shooting in, say, Rachet and Clank, or any other action game, isn't just the result of a button, nor are aim or movement controls linked only to one's primary fire. The difference between what one could accomplish with that many keys separately, as a mere sum, rather than a functional combination, in gestalt, will show either efficiency or inefficiency. The tools that allow for Primary Fire tend to be very efficient--there's more that can be done than with any part or each part of it separated. Our purely linear combos give example to the opposite--though in n parts, they perform only one means of control.

If RPGs -- MMORPGs especailly -- would better make a habit of considering their keyspace as a means by which to exert control and manipulate one's character according to its capacities rather than just as a depository for items on some character arsenal ledger, that genre-based excuse would hold no wind.

Design can make effective, efficient use of some 24 or even 36 keys to approach a cohesive and satisfying control system by which to explore, optimize, and immerse oneself within a character's capacities and perspective therefrom. That's just not what's happening here.

Edit: Don't get me wrong. I like having tons of options and complexity available. But depth and button count aren't correlative unless consistently efficient as possible and even then there tend to be curves in that efficiency over button count. If I had to pick a "magic number", it'd probably be at most 24 job-specific buttons (not abilities, mind you, which can be many, many more), with space enough for ready access to core functions through another 6 buttons to a total of 30 at most. But there's a huge range available to how well that many buttons can be put to use.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

I still want tank stances to go, because the idea itself is not contributing much into DRK and PLD gameplay.

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I'd rater wanna ask make tank stances being relevant, rather than delete them.
Or, following the same stance (pun...), about the button bloating we can ask to remove healing skills to healers, just because they are judged only by the dps contribute they do.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Rescue is pointless, it's impossible to get it off in time when it's needed, it's only ever used to troll. I've only ever had it used on me either, as I said, to troll by pulling me into harms way, or way too late to make a difference.

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While it is indeed rare, 20ms ping plus quick reaction times means I've been able to pull some absolutely beautiful saves using Rescue. Now is my success rate high? Not really, and I do occasionally troll a friend or partner with it (anyone seen NEST and their shenanigans, nowadays I tend to go at my partner the most with it if trolling). But Rescue has been one of my preferred role actions since SB. Niche, but done properly it makes for an amazing skill.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Works fine if considered preemptively. Like every Emergency cooldown in this game, when the danger is manifest, it's too late. But use it as a scheduled KB-undo or uptime-keeper and it works just fine.

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You're right in that it works great if considered pre-emptively, but with low ping and quick reaction times, you can see the danger unfolding, and quickly pull them in by studying the field. Although I guess you'd probably count that as pre-emptive. Whereas to me pre-emptive means you've already got it planned out exactly when you're going to use it. Whereas I use it to react to a situation that has started to unfold.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

...Whereas I use it to react to a situation that has started to unfold.

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Sloppyyyyyy!

A more accurate comparison to tank stances and positionals would be the old Cleric Stance dance and, well... that's already been removed.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

I'd rater wanna ask make tank stances being relevant, rather than delete them.
Or, following the same stance (pun...), about the button bloating we can ask to remove healing skills to healers, just because they are judged only by the dps contribute they do.

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I dont think its possible.
Encounters would have to be much more threatening than they are now. If you have a stance in which you deal more damage and you could survive, then tank stance is barely used and will be out of meta.
Either that, or they should give healers more damage to compensate a tank sitting in tank stance and give enough def so healers could do more damage. They could also remove provoke-shrink but that would flatten the gameplay even more.
Unfortunately dps in this game is so important, that even if something gives 1% advantage you want to use it. I have no idea how much of features would tank stance need to be more appealing for min-max community. I dont even know if removing damage penalty would really change anything, since on DRK with Grit on you dont have blood weapon anyway, and on Paladin you lose a lot of dps from auto attacks alone.

Tank stance was a fair discussion.

Currently we just use one emnity combo and turn it off. You learn far more in dps stance since you're managing emnity and pushing damage while staying alive. In tank stance things stick to you and you can just fall asleep. The dps penalty is far too high, you literally don't have the dps to beat anything EX upwards without being carried, you have to turn it off and go dps stance.

Removing it isn't a definite answer because you need something to replace it with. But a lot of tanks would like it to be reworked so we have something to engage us more besides dps and voke-cd 3 times.

What's sad is a useful topic discussion gets ridiculed and a troll topic like this that contributes absolutely zero feedback or discussion gets upvoted.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Sloppyyyyyy!

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PUGs mean you have to be ready to react to a situation at a nanosecond's notice. That's more what I was focusing in on with that reacting side.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

A more accurate comparison to tank stances and positionals would be the old Cleric Stance dance and, well... that's already been removed.

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Tanks stances and Cleric stance don't have anything to do with positionals. There are also some fundamental differences between the two. Namely tanks don't die in DPS stance anywhere near as much as they were dropping when healers were in cleric stance. To a lesser - but not by much extent, healers also didn't have abilities tied directly to Cleric Stance. It simply swapped stats along with damage increase and decreased healing. So it was easy for the devs to change it and place it in the role skills. Tanks however do have abilities tied to their stances, so removing them is going to create a lot more work for the devs.

I think a core part of the issue is whether you're in favor of tank stances or not, nobody likes incurring a penalty for using a skill. Especially optimally which is the only time a tank should go back into tank stance. This is where Cleric stance and tank stance DO line up, because both PLD and DRK are penalized for going into tank stance during battle and seriously needs to change. But they don't need to remove it completely to make this happen.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Tank stance was a fair discussion.

Currently we just use one emnity combo and turn it off. You learn far more in dps stance since you're managing emnity and pushing damage while staying alive. In tank stance things stick to you and you can just fall asleep. The dps penalty is far too high, you literally don't have the dps to beat anything EX upwards without being carried, you have to turn it off and go dps stance.

Removing it isn't a definite answer because you need something to replace it with. But a lot of tanks would like it to be reworked so we have something to engage us more besides dps and voke-cd 3 times.

What's sad is a useful topic discussion gets ridiculed and a troll topic like this that contributes absolutely zero feedback or discussion gets upvoted.

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I think the reason it got ridiculed was because the OP of that thread seemed to be lazy about tanking. Otherwise, it is a really good discussion and honestly got me thinking about how a rework could work.

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Originally Posted by Neri

can we also remove useless topics too?

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While we're at it, remove/merge duplicate threads.