Diversion/Lucid Dreaming - BLM

Hi, I have few questions about diversion and LD for BLM and SAM. I pop diversion before boss and wait a couple of seconds before attacking, yet for some reason I am still generating a lot of aggro. I pop LD if I notice I am 4th in aggro for raid or if I am 2nd in a aggro in small party. I keep thinking it's me doing something wrong. I know BLM/SAM does not generate that much aggro even after using DIV/LD used correctly. Can LD/DIV help me even if the tank is starting out in DPS stance? Can those two skills help me even if the tank never uses any aggro abilities? Can you give me tips on how DIV/LD can help in general. Been in a lot of parties with tanks who use little to no aggro abilities, I pop DIV and wait a few seconds (attack etc.) and pop LD a bit after and still die. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks.

I am just looking for answers too my questions and helpful tips. I'd like to go into dungeons or raid fights, do my business quietly and leave.

The way diversion works is that it cuts the amount of agro you generate via actions greatly. So ideally you use that at the start of the fight just before you go into your rotation. For a longer fight you can reapply it when it comes off cool down to make sure your overall agro generation remains low. Lucid cuts your current agro stack in half(along with a mana regen buff that doesnt really affect a BLM). So this is more properly saved for when your agro is about to overtake the tank(or if you notice yourself sitting in 1st place among your group in an alliance raid and cant judge how much of a lead the MT in another group has on you). Personally i try not to use it prematurely, and save it as an emergency measure. If the boss doesnt have a move that specifically targets the person in 2nd place for hate, then i can safely sit there as long as the tank has a solid lead on me(hitting lucid when it looks like im getting too close). BLM and SAM are two of the classes with the highest potential for damage, so a tank unprepared(or undergeared) actually can run into agro issues if they dont take you seriously - even if you use your skills properly.

A mistake a lot of people make with diversion and lucid is not understanding the mechanics of them. Thinking diversion works the same way as lucid dreaming, when it doesn’t.

To keep it simple, think of enmity as 1 to 1 with damage. So 100 damage generates 100 enmity.

So if you use fire 4 doing, say 15k per cast, after 4 fire 4’s you’ve generated 60k enmity.

Diversion and lucid dreaming work in different ways. Diversion reduces enmity you WILL generate, while lucid removes enmity you ALREADY generated.

Diversion reduces enmity by 80% for 30 seconds. So in the above example if you used diversion BEFORE using those 4 fire 4’s you’ve only generated 12k enmity instead of 60k. Which is absolutely tiny enmity, a tank in dps stance using their dps combo should easily outpace that. (Assuming they’re not undergeared and know what they’re doing).

If you then used lucid AFTER those 4 fire 4’s it would cut that 12k enmity in half making it 6k.

Now, assuming you do understand the mechanics of the moves.

Generally a BLM or SAM isn’t doing their damage right away, so if you used diversion at the start it will wear off before you get into the “meat” of your rotation. E.G. a BLM opens with blizzard/thunder spells before moving into fire 4 and foul. If you pop diversion during ice/thunder that’s diversion time going to waste on a low damage part of your rotation when it could be covering a fire 4 or a foul.

Similarly SAM needs to build kenki and sen to use powerful moves like guren and kaiten+midaire setsugekka. So if you’re using diversion at the start you’re wasting it on basic weak combos when it could be reducing those massive 800/1080 potency hits (guren and diversion actually have the same recast so you could be using it on every single one).

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

Snip.

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While Cabala's post sums it up very nicely, I wanted to add that in the opener (very start of the fight) it is still very good to start with diversion. Just like how BLM and Sam have low damage output until they build up (and pretty much every DPS), tanks also need to ramp up their damage (War can spike enmity before everyone but they still need time to apply slashing and Storm's Eye and none of the tanks pop their damage buffs until a few GCDs in).

The BLM opener involves precasting Blizzard III so ita lands at the exact time the tank's first hit. (don't wait 2 seconds that is a whole GCD worth of damage delayed/lost, Diversion is there to make sure you're still safe unless your tank doesn't know what their buttons do).

Lucid Dreaming is best used in the last moment because of it dropping half your enmity. It is recommended that you use it as soon as you approach tanks' enmity. There are special cases like Byakko resetting the tanks' enmity when he throws them or in O12S where the boss targets either on of the top 2 enmity and shoots them with a nasty beam. In the first case you want to wait for the first tank that lost aggro to be freed off the stun to pick it up then use Lucid. In the latter you want to use Lucid before that mechanic to ensure you are not targeted.

Personally if there are no cases like the above, I use Lucid after my second Foul and then every time it is off CD or if I am doing a short Ice Phase (pushed Foul in fire to fit raid buffs and/or used Thundercloud so only using Bliz4 in UI).

As for SAM, the only insight I can give is always have diversion during your 2 minute burst (the one with the line aoe kenki move). I know that using Third Eye to reduce aggro is a small DPS loss, but dying because of aggro is a bigger DPS loss. If you're using diversion correctly though a tank should hold against you very well. Specially when Shirk Exists. Aside from that, I don't play SAM enough nor is mine geared to give actual advice. (I do more DPS on my PLD/DRK than my SAM because of the gear lol, 396vs 334 if you're wondering and 5100+ VS 4800~) so even a monkey playing tank can hold against me.

I can’t speak to exacts but I can compare to my role.

Division needs to be used when possible when you’re going to be bursting out your highest damage. It reduces hate generated while active, so it’s less valuable when you’re doing lower damage or no damage. So for example as a monk, I hold onto it for Riddle of Fire (30% damage buff) windows.

As for lucid, it cuts your current hate in half. Since as a BLM you don’t need it for the mana refresh, you will get the most benefit out of it by holding it till the last possible second to use it. Wait till there’s just a sliver difference between you and the tank, and you’ll cut the most hate possible.

Also, gotta say thanks for trying either way! I’ve tanked opposite enough DF black mages to see many not even bother. It’s always so much more of a struggle when they don’t even try to manage this.

Thanks for the tips, so then I will incorporate these and stick too starting out with B3 etc. Also, thank you for the advice on not waiting, I always thought I should wait a GCD or two before doing my business. I can see that was severely hampering my DPS. @Pheonicia, you mentioned WAR can spike enmity before anyone else, can DRK do that well? I play PLD sometimes but not seriously so this is why I ask. I assume PLD cannot spike enmity (correct me if I am wrong - total noob tank here)?

(Just in case it's not seen)

Warrior does have the biggest spike in enmity generation for sure, but Dark Knight can do it pretty well too. A Dark Arts - Power Slash will generate a pretty intense amount of agro for the Dark Knight, though not as much as the warrior being able to do their full agro combos with Unchained up for potentially several rotations. Paladins just don't have that same kind of snap agro to help them with pulls, so it is a good thing to take into account which type of tank you have and how much they can do off the bat to determine what kind of cooldowns you need to use when, like should you Diversion right on pull, or can you wait until you're about to start spamming Fire IV.

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Originally Posted by Marianno

Snippity Snip

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Originally Posted by wereotter

More Snipping!!

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Well, first, it helps to know the enmity multiplier difference between the tanks as it contributes to this. For example, the ranged pick up tool, Unmend is the highest base potency (150) but has the weakest enmity multiplier (dmg x5). On the other hand, Paladin has the weakest base potency in Shield Lob (120) but it has the same multiplier as WAR (dmg x7). Tomahawk is 140.

Here is a good list of enmity multipliers.

While knowing those multipliers helps, it mainly helps knowing what your tank is doing (or not doing). The biggest contributor to snap aggro is the combos available to tanks (and I'm not talking about the Enmity 3GCD combo, I am talking about combining certain abilities and CDs). Here is how tanks can "snap" their aggro on pull.

Warrior spikes enmity simply by starting with Unchained and throwing Tomahawk and using Equilibrium as soon as they enter combat, which heals for a fk Tonne and in turn generate twice as much because of the 2.7 defiance enmity bonus. From there they enter Deliverance and go straight to Storm's Eye combo then Fell Cleave to oblivion with Inner Release (IR), in which case, not only will you have a hard time catching them in enmity, but also in DPS for the first 20~30 seconds. I dislike it when my co-tank WAR uses this to pull mobs after a split because it risks me losing my add to his heal.

Dark Knight can also spike enmity in a similar manner, it is not the same as WAR but it's pretty close and costs a bit of DPS (in comparison to WAR who loses no DPS at all).

The way it's done is by using Dark Arts (DA) roughly 7 seconds before pulling. Then you go in with Unmend and directly use Dark Passenger, from there it depends on who you have in your team and your setup:
1- You don't have a Ninja, you use a Dark Arts Power Slash (DAPS) combo.
Also: If you don't trust your group to help you aggro control (Diversion and what not) have Grit up and this combo will give you max aggro (WAR level), otherwise you can have it off.
2- You have a Ninja and you can skip DAPS and go straight into Souleater Combos. This is what I use in my group without Grit because my team are very conscious about their aggro.

As wereotter said, PLD does not have a comparitively good tool to "snap" the aggro. I try to snap with Shield Lob (840 enmity) Into Shield Swipe + Circle of Scorn (which is 600 potency in enmity), but it barely holds against WAR or DRK and if DPS aren't helping you, read: you don't have a ninja, you need to Halone. In my static I can skip Shield Lob when pulling an add. Or I voke the boss and let the WAR pick it up.

Hope this helps sate your curiosity about tank snap aggro.

Diversion during opener (either pre casted, or during your triple cast f4 weaving after LL+potion, or just LL if not using a pot), do another 2 or 3 full rotations (depending on where your eminity is at by this point), then weave lucid on a proc or after b3. The later lucid is used, the more effective it is, but you don't want to hold onto it too long because using it twice pretty much puts your threat at a comfy spot for the rest of the fight. Use diversion again off cd when you can weave it, and then weave lucid again after its up, and you should be fine on eminity for the rest of the fight.

Awesome, thanks everyone. These tips will go a long for me I'll and knowing what I know now about the aggro difference between all three tanks, I can plan my aggro-shed abilities accordingly. I am just curious about DRK/PLD, is it a DPS loss for both if they are in Tank stance? I assume it is for DRK considering a lot of their skills are locked behind not having grit up (correct me if I am wrong please).

Yes all tanks have a DPS loss when not in tank stance. It's normal not to have them use it for the majority of an encounter.
Also regarding your question about the large spike from WAR, their enmity is gained from their self-heal, so after about one attack they're already immediately in their DPS stance.

If I'm on a tank I prefer pld, and it makes me sad when people immediately go ham before I've gotten an iota of aggro.
Even putting aside the equilibrium trick at the start of a fight, tons of damage with dhit fell cleaves for single target, dhit steel cyclones for massive group aggro and self healing or decimate for pure damage, and even if you're doing low level content dhit overpower all dump on paladin hard for gaining aggro.
Heck even standard overpower spam is better since it pulls aggo and deals damage while pld has to pick between aggro (flash) or damage (total eclipse)... and before SB pld didn't even have total eclipse!

Believe me, you paladin friends will thank you for using diversion before dumping a fire1, fire3 and eight fire4's in a single astral phase on your opener.

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Originally Posted by Orbus

If I'm on a tank I prefer pld, and it makes me sad when people immediately go ham before I've gotten an iota of aggro.
Even putting aside the equilibrium trick at the start of a fight, tons of damage with dhit fell cleaves for single target, dhit steel cyclones for massive group aggro and self healing or decimate for pure damage, and even if you're doing low level content dhit overpower all dump on paladin hard for gaining aggro.
Heck even standard overpower spam is better since it pulls aggo and deals damage while pld has to pick between aggro (flash) or damage (total eclipse)... and before SB pld didn't even have total eclipse!

Believe me, you paladin friends will thank you for using diversion before dumping a fire1, fire3 and eight fire4's in a single astral phase on your opener.

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I feel you bro, I am a PLD/DRK main myself and the abuse I deal with as PLD compared to what I can do on DRK or WAR makes me very sad.

Dont get me wrong, I have very little issues aoe tanking in sword oath spamming eclipse.... Until Mr. Black Mage decides to not diversion and just go ham with fire 4 on 1 target instead of Flare spam for aoe damage then I lose that one target. And that's when healers start heal bombing them and I am forced to choose between continuing to aoe things so they don't to the healer or risk them going to the healer by snapping the loose mob.. Either case ends up with more heals going off that arent even aimed at me. :(

On a side note, I don't even dare to drop Sh.O before my third Flash when I have a good summoner... Their AoE burst is just retarded.

Regardless, no matter what tank you are, if a DPS goes apepoop on a single target while you are AoEing, they are tanking that one mob. I usually Shirk them in hopes they learn a lesson and if they complain I tell them to please use aggro reduction and to actually press their AoE skills. Because I do not care how high you think your single target DPS is, an AoE rotation on 3 targets is simply more DPS. And if they complain about me not doing my job holding aggro I will complain they are not doing their job DPSing. It's only fair, yeah?

As a matter of fact, 99/100 times I beat their DPS on my tank because of aoe works. At 5 targets, with Fight or Flish, every GCD a PLD uses total eclipse they do 635 potency worth of damage (ignoring RNG), that is higher than Fire 4 (which is 300 x 1.8 Astral fire 3 bonus). Whereas if the BLM uses flare (280 x1.8 with diminishes) would do a total of roughly 2,264 per cast. 2 flares and a foul and everyone is just a far spec in your dust.

Just Diversion right after an instant cast during your opener. So something like f3, triple, f4, diversion, f4. If you have a warrior or DRK tank it shouldn't matter too much if you diversion pre-pull due to Defiance+Unchained+Equil+Thrill or Grit+DADP/DA+Plunge depending on where you want the boss + DAPS.

Lucid you should use as often as you can, but for the first cast you want your diversion to wear off first, then use it if you are hitting second place in enmity or 30 seconds later.

Usually no matter how bad the tanks are as long as you use both on CD you'll never be catching up on enmity (unless the MT dies) but not every scenario is the same.

Trash pulls you can't expect to have diversion so the tanks better be spamming their AoE threat or mobs is going to come right off. Non-savage bosses often don't require tank swap so you'll eventually catch up on aggro if the MT stays in dps stance for the whole fight and the ST is one of the lazy guys that never Shirk.

Savage/Ex everyone should be using diversion AND Lucid if they have it and hopefully Brd/Mch will get a smoke because their "optimal opener" wastes their refresh before the pull.

One thing I'd like to mention as a side note to this discussion.

It would really be great if Hall of Novice updated role skills, especially enmity dumping ones. People don't really understand why these skills are there but dump 10 cross skills without demonstrating their use. While I understand their justification for allowing players to figure out an optimal rotation. If you're going to give cross skills you should be able to reasonably set up demonstrations in Hall of Novice why one would take them. If you cannot, then it's probably a good time to look at why you put said cross skills in the game.

tl;dr

Use Diversion just before the pull and use Lucid Dreaming when you are high on enmity (roughly when you have 45 seconds left on Diversion timer). After that, use Lucid as necessary and save Diversion for if the tank dies and is trying to get it back from you or for new adds (M/F is a good example) or for enmity resets (Neo).

In dungeons, which tends to be 2 mega pulls then boss on repeat I usually use Diversion just before the first megapull and then Lucid during the second and unless the group has exceptional DPS Diversion is usually back up for the boss.

As a BLM main, i like to wait on threat mitigation until i pull threat, pop lucid, then pop diversion just to show dominance over tanks.
but on a serious note, diversion should be up before you've even hit bosses as blm <3