NIN mudras going into 5.0

I just wrapped up the NIN SB questline. The final solo instance is nothing short of a shinobi battle royal, and a total blast! But it left me wondering a bit. I know the three mudras is already clunky, but could a fourth possibly be coming? Could it work and how?

Sasuke's lineage of shinobi only mastered three Mudras, so lore wise it might not fit, but man beast summonings, growing 10 stories tall, and freakin shadow clones! Going ant-man might not be an option, but how about the other two?

I think one possibility is four mudra is not really used during combat, but prior. Beast summonings and shadow clones would require no micro management and just attack whatever you do. They have low health and will require ninjitsu to be brought back out again.

Anywho, just some thoughts as I'm still a little giddy over the fight.

This is how I see a possible fourth mudra being inplimented. My guess is it would be spirit/soul or Rei, since Tamashii is a bit long and Tama would mean more round, plus Rei fits with the single kanji, three letter word motif of the other mudra. But, Rei would be a level cap skill, and either cause an action on it's own, or allow for several other actions to be implimented, like changing what the commands of the other mudra create. Like instead of Raiton, the same input would create a larger more damaging skill, Raijin?, while under the effect of Rei.

i'd be fine with a forth mudra so long as things fit into 1 of 3 scenerios

1. no quad mudra combination - just new combinations/executions (can also add more skills with less button bloat overall)
2. quad mudra combinations would have to be be obsurdly powerful as clipping 2 gcds is huge loss otherwise
3. a quad mudra and couple less number of combinations, quad have insane potentcy etc

regardless how we get 4th mudra if we get it how will it interact with TCJ/TA

As long as their is no quad mudra combinations. However I would suffice if there was new jutsu but they are just 1 button. One big issue is the mudra input with server lag or poor latency.

I just hope they do ninja justice in 5.0

Do you think they would ever remove Mundra input? I mean let's say you can set Raiton to your hotbar directly, but when you use it the animation plays for whatever Mundra is required to use that particular Ninjutsu. I suppose it would be like casting time except you can do it whilst moving, though the auto input means less issues with lag/latency.

A 4th would be ok, if they let you use other actions in between mudras.

If a 4th mudra was added, they'd have to limit jutsu to just three mudra chains.
Because it would add:
X 4
X X 4
X X X 1
X X X 2
X X X 3
X X X 4

So two more jutsu's if limited to three still, or SIX if expanded to four, and I think six new skills is a bit overkill.

If they're adding a 4th mudra, it's time to make Ninjutsu into an auto-cast action. You select Doton on your hotbar, your character casts the mudras automatically then you have to hit the Ninjutsu button to execute it. They can increase the amount of time to hold a Ninjutsu before executing it for an extra 5 seconds before it gets dropped.

I wish they'd just axe the ability to mess up mudra combos entirely because getting your inputs eaten by latency/server ticks still happens way too often for my tastes.

The bunny can still be around as a result of trying to use other actions during mudra preparation.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I wish they'd just axe the ability to mess up mudra combos entirely because getting your inputs eaten by latency/server ticks still happens way too often for my tastes.

The bunny can still be around as a result of trying to use other actions during mudra preparation.

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Make the bunny the most powerful ninjutsu and we're set ;D
I can't wait to see vieras miss mudras and ascend as double bunny.

As much as I want shadow clones, the latency issue needs to be addressed before they can add a mudra and additional ninjitsu; possibly even keep the system as is. I don't think single button jutsu is the answer, we would get 6 additional skills on our bars all sharing the same CD. I thought about if reducing the mudra recast timer would help, but not sure it will do anything if latency is the problem. And I personally would not want to be able to use abilities between mudras. I don't have an issue with the current system. Only that it is at the mercy of ping.

How about if the mudras didn't share the CD timer, but instead have their own separate CDs? I am not sure if the CDs need to be tied together for ninjitsu combinations to register, but also don't see what they would need to be. I really hope they figure this out going into 5.0 as NIN has become one of my favorite jobs to play.

They could do a lot to fix mudras just by making them weavable and seperating them from the ninjutsu button itself. so you give the mudras themselves maybe a 10 second duration with an instant recast. but keep the ninjutsu button on its 20 second cool down.

If they did this instead of say trying to go:
Spinning Heel > Gust Slash > Ten > Jin > Chi > Ninjutsu > Aeolian Edge. and suffering from the rather heavy slipping issues while entering your doton. What players would be able to do is:

Ten > Spinning Heel > Jin > Gust Slash > Chi > Aeolian Edge > Ninjutsu and drop doton without any gcd clipping issues at all.

The seperation of the recast timers would then effectively allow players to pre enter there next mudras before the ninjutsu button came off its 20 second cooldown.

So at lets say 60 seconds into a fight a ninja has just pressed ninjutsu and thrown raiton on to the boss. at say 70 seconds he could start weaving his next mudra combination between his next gcds so when he presses the ninjutsu button at 80 seconds his next
chosen ninjutsu is all set to go.. again without clipping any of his gcds..

this would eliminate a huge amount of ninjas clipping issues. the biggest issue ninjas would be left with would be the clunkiness of ten chi jin itself.

I think the intent with NIN was to separate ninjitsu from weaponskills, and I believe this will remain in 5.0. I am not sure why this is an issue for some players so long as the damage that clips the gcd is greater than the gcd/combo potency. I don't have an issue with TCJ because the potency is ridiculous, and personally speaking, I would find weaving mudras between weaponskills to be much less engaging. I'd probably abandon NIN if they did this.

Eliminating shared CDs among the mudras would also allow to queue the next mudra and desired ninjitsu. I think it would solve a lot of the current issue and allow the fourth mudra. At least on paper I think. Ninjitsu involving four mudras would definitely have to be very strong, unless it is some kind of passive jutsu like Huton that you usually cast prior to the fight. Something like shadow clones effectively tripling the damage from your auto attacks (just an example) would definitely boost NIN overall DPS.

it's more to fix a latency issue than change the way a job plays. making mudras weavable for example wouldnt stop those with decent connections working exactly as they do now. but those with slightly higher latency could benefit from it.

I'm in the uk and play on sargatanas and as much as people sometimes spout move data centres if latency is an issue it's not an option. ive been on my server since before it existed. back in 1.0 when it was called saronia. before it was merged. its where all my friends are so moving just isnt an option. and before they moved the data centre i never had a single issue.and times of day i have a faster connection than people on the datacentres door step..

the thing is there's times of the day where i can throw out ninjutsu with no issues at all and never bunny. hell even ten chi jin flows quite smoothly. but then randomly a couple of hours later it becomes a clunky mess. and i start seeing bunnys because the server missed an input or something such. even if my latency has only gone up a few ms it can make a huge difference.

allowing mudras to be weavable wouldn't change the gameplay that much you could still do the whole thing in a single gcd if you so choose it would just give players on a slightly higher latency a chance to keep up. especially when yoshi proclaims this game is designed to be played at 200ms and yet can frequently see you messing up your mudras even if you're playing at half that...

latency is widely regarded as ninjas single biggest problem. and allowing mudras to be weavable would go an incredibly long way to resolving that issue

I think I mentioned this in another thread, but instead of adding another mudra, why not add combos to the current mudras that increase their potency? So 1-1 or 1-1-1 would empower Fuma Shuriken at each step, 1-2-2 or 1-1-2 would boost each of the 2-mudra skills, and the current 3 mudra skills would be unaffected. That alone would be plenty, since it could be used to boost TCJ potency a bit further and mitigate rabbit issues somewhat.

I am not sure if that really fixes the latency issue though. I think at best it would sweep it under the rug. It may very well transfer the issue over to our gcds instead of the subsequent mudras. Which aside from my opinion of dulling gameplay, this possibility is another reason why I think weaponskills and mudras/justu should remain separate.

There is no disputing that changing the way mudras work will change how NIN plays. The question is how much will it impact the way it is played currently. Now if SE cannot figure out how to rectify the latency issues, then perhaps there will be no choice other than to change how NIN plays. Unfortunately. No doubt about it NIN will be the job I'll be paying the most attention to when 5.0 announcements begin.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

I think I mentioned this in another thread, but instead of adding another mudra, why not add combos to the current mudras that increase their potency? So 1-1 or 1-1-1 would empower Fuma Shuriken at each step, 1-2-2 or 1-1-2 would boost each of the 2-mudra skills, and the current 3 mudra skills would be unaffected. That alone would be plenty, since it could be used to boost TCJ potency a bit further and mitigate rabbit issues somewhat.

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potency would have to worth the clipping else be worthless to do

another problem for nin in 5.0 will be skillspeed as secondary stats go up as i highly doubt every new batch of ilvs we will be able to avoid it completely clipping could get real bad if se mess it up too much

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Do you think they would ever remove Mundra input? I mean let's say you can set Raiton to your hotbar directly, but when you use it the animation plays for whatever Mundra is required to use that particular Ninjutsu. I suppose it would be like casting time except you can do it whilst moving, though the auto input means less issues with lag/latency.

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They could negate those issues already by just moving the queuing moment up a bit and trusting the client timer for the animation lock duration. Sure, there might be some hackers at the highest end, but they wouldn't be able to post a log or play outside their static without being found out, which removes almost all reason to hack outside of glamour farms.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

If they're adding a 4th mudra, it's time to make Ninjutsu into an auto-cast action. You select Doton on your hotbar, your character casts the mudras automatically then you have to hit the Ninjutsu button to execute it. They can increase the amount of time to hold a Ninjutsu before executing it for an extra 5 seconds before it gets dropped.

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Part of me wants this already, but then I realized that doing so would potentially add more button bloat. Right now the mudras take up four hot bar spaces. If you took that away and just make them all seperate actions you'd need:
Fuma Shrunken
Raiton
Katon
Huton
Doton
Suiton

So this is already two more buttons than ninjas have to have now, not counting the useless Hyoton action. If a fourth were to be added, then even more skills, and even more button bloat regardless of how things are handled. My hope for 5.0 is a culling of useless skills and replace some mudras with other more interesting ones we've seen used in the ninja quests. Raiton can argubly be removed as can Hyoton. They could also split the difference between Katon and Doton and have it deal initial damage plus damage over time to each target it hits. That would free up potentially three combinations that could be used for new skills without needing to add a fourth mudra.

I remember from the 70 quest that the fourth mundra is "mirror". Gave me the mental image of it duplicating the current ninjutsu command.

Like, you tap in the command for Raiton, then hit 4. When you actually cast ninjitsu, shadow clones appear on your sides and you cast 2-3 Raitons before they fade away. Just give it a seperate timer from the other mundras.

Just a shower thought, but i figured it could be a cool way to impliment the 4th.

I was really hoping to have a fourth Mudra that could only be activated when a Bunny is present. The fourth Mudra would anchor the Bunny to this realm temporarily allowing it to come off your head and become an egi essentially. It looks like a Black Mage so I imagine it would cast the same aspected "spells" as the Mudra you cast on the same Target at a slight delay for 70 secs doubling the potency but the fourth Mudra that allowed this would be on an insane cool down like 3 to 5 minutes. So while your bunny caster egi is active you get double potency on all Mudra from a cute rabbit following you around and don't have to worry about new combinations. As a bonus if you summon another bunny while the first is active they should play together cause that's adorable and even more infuriating to lose a double cast. The bunny would have a recast time of 10 seconds between spells tho to eliminate copying everything from TCJ.

A proper fourth mudra would probably server very little purpose,we already have 1 useless combination (Hyoton), 2 if you consider Raiton due to clipping, and as Seraphor have shown, adding a fourth mudra would result in 6 new ninjutsu.
I do not think we can make 6 new balanced Ninjutsu.

What I could see however, would be a special mudra that you do first which simply enhance the actual Ninjutsu. This would ofc be a CD. (Could be an upgrade to Kassatsu)

Meanwhile I'm just hoping nin will eventually get a way to use suiyaku to heal yourself for those time when you're sitting at 1K hp, staring at your healer running around until the the next raid wide aoe finish you off.
If nin get a 4th mudra I really hope it'll be in one of the ninjustsu.

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Originally Posted by Sigiria

Meanwhile I'm just hoping nin will eventually get a way to use suiyaku to heal yourself for those time when you're sitting at 1K hp, staring at your healer running around until the the next raid wide aoe finish you off.
If nin get a 4th mudra I really hope it'll be in one of the ninjustsu.

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Gotta be a very powerful heal because if you're a 1K, unless you're doing an expert only a crit ogcd is gonna save u XD

Nothing is more annoying then when you are hitting mudras and it either registers late and then you are messed up.
Had happened to me in Sigmascape Savage a fair amount and i went back to my caster main. The mudra system could use some rework but at the same time i would like them to expand upon it.

I think the bunny should be a 200 potency self heal. There aren't many abilities that penalize you so badly. Least it should do it give you a heal and maybe used tactically for emergencies. In FF5, if you failed Setzer's Slots, it uses Mysidian Rabbit (where the bunny comes from) and it would be an AoE heal.

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Mysidian_Rabbit

I just want to be able to do the clone spell like Yugiri does. Then i'll be happy.

I like NIN, but the main reason I don't play it is I find ninjutsu clunky.

I feel like they should rework it where you use Ninjutsu first which gives you like a 5 second buff, and after every sign you use, you use that ability, and it refreshes the ninjutsu buff back to 5 seconds. That would make it not affected by using GCD in between as well as make NIN more fun to play. Could increase Ninjutsu recast to make it more balanced.

As a stripped down example...
Ninjutsu > Ten (uses shuriken automatically) > Chi (uses Raiton automatically) > Jin (uses Suiton automatically).

Would also be pretty easy to weave in other OGCD along with the sign if not having to do all 3 in the same OGCD. I don't know the meta opener right now for NIN so as a basic real life example with buffs stripped out...
Pre-pull Ninjutsu > Ten (uses shuriken automatically as you run to boss) > Spinning Edge > Chi (uses Raiton automatically) > Gust Slash > Jin (uses Suiton automatically) > Dancing Edge > Trick Attack > Kassatsu > shenanigans

Also maybe instead of a "you ****ed up rabbit", you get a short buff. Maybe a second usage of Ten gives you a small heal, Chi gives you a small dps boost, Jin gives a small vulnerability up. Maybe a third usage of each gives you a medium sized version.

I'd like to see TCJ modified so as to allow a short duration window where a 4-mudra combination is possible.

Basically an "I need to double my dps right now" dps panic button.

And then offer a few extra TCJ-only mudras during the next few level ups.

If they add another combination or mak ninja more complex, I'm going to main a different dps like dancer as long as it's not overly complicated with rotations.