"Just use True North problem solved"

This is mostly a rant, but I hate how people always tell melees "JUST USE TRUE NORTH YA DINGUS" as if it's the answer to every positional problem.

Yeah True North is amazing for allow positional procs where we are forced into situations where we cannot get our positionals, which happens a lot! Everyone seems to think it's on a 15 second CD and it's always available, and if not use it whenever melee ask for an adjustment.

Folks don't realize 1) 150 sec CD 2) Melees plan out specific spots when to use TN during the fight. Being such a long CD we have limited uses of it during the fight.

To be clear, I'm upset at True North, I'm just upset that tanks/mages always yell at melee to use True North for every mechanic, as if we weren't using it already to optimized our positional procs.

I just dont even use True North. I figure if you have to learn to use positionals 95% of the time, may as well learn to use then 100% of the time. Just another role skill too many that doesnt fit on my xhotbar.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I just dont even use True North. I figure if you have to learn to use positionals 95% of the time, may as well learn to use then 100% of the time. Just another role skill too many that doesnt fit on my xhotbar.

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"may as well learn to use then 100% of the time." He's not talking about that at all. Sometimes mechanics don't allow you to do your positionnals. So true north is here tohelp. But as he says it's one cheese for 15 seconds every 150 seconds. So not there all the time.

I agree with him that sometimes non melees underestimate how much of a pain it is and do not seek adjustment. Like leaving a SW or SE spot to the melee guys does a great deal. Or if you have no range, have a tank / healer deal with a mechanic including heavy movement, their DPS is 2/3 or half of a DPS so doens't hurt raidDPS that much and casters/melees would be very much obliged (like level checker in O11S, if you don't have a range you put the 2 heals, don't even talk to me about putting the black mage or the monk there)

I don't really bother with True North most of the time because every tank I seem to encounter wants to spin enemies in a circle for the entire fight. It's like they think they can dodge every attack by making them dizzy. I can only make up for the lack of rear attacking with True North so much. Why bother.

I feel like True North should have a lower cooldown.

Melee don't even have any tangible benefits over ranged to compensate for needing to account for positionals.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I feel like True North should have a lower cooldown.

Melee don't even have any tangible benefits over ranged to compensate for needing to account for positionals.

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Yeah, I feel that with the number of encounters where positionals are difficult or impossible to use, True North could really do with a lower cooldown.

Heck, slap some bonus damage on to it too to help make up for the DPS loss caused by the downtime of not being able to benefit from positionals while it's on CD. Not anything too drastic, but like 5%-10% or something.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Yeah, I feel that with the number of encounters where positionals are difficult or impossible to use, True North could really do with a lower cooldown.

Heck, slap some bonus damage on to it too to help make up for the DPS loss caused by the downtime of not being able to benefit from positionals while it's on CD. Not anything too drastic, but like 5%-10% or something.

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Or, make it cost a significant amount of TP/whatever-replaces-TP.
If bypassing positionals was as costly as AoE spam, or perhaps moreso, then it would work on a low or even no cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Or, make it cost a significant amount of TP/whatever-replaces-TP.
If bypassing positionals was as costly as AoE spam, or perhaps moreso, then it would work on a low or even no cooldown.

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Now that's an interesting idea.
Given aside death, TP regeneration is generally unneeded, it would be interesting to regain some ressource management and having a way to cheese for short periods of time to deal with the mechanics requiring you NOT to be in adequate positions.

I'm primarily a caster, and even I know it's pretty much the main tank's job to keep the boss positioned so the melee can do their jobs as best as they can.

It's hard to judge if True North should have a lower CD. As a melee main sure I would have a bias opinion and say it should be lower than 150 seconds, BUUUT part of the challenge is figuring out creative ways in nailing those positionals, like during Omega's Star/Larboard, where a little bit of the rear is exposed for rear procs.

While it does suck to be forced into situations where we can't do positionals, I think it helps balance out the numbers to where the devs want folks to clear. It pushes folks to go for high skill plays, for lack of a better term.

True North is a blessing for melee, but other jobs see it as the end all problem solver. BLM gets special treatment to keep it still as possible, melees ask for adjustments and everyone is >;C

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Originally Posted by Syrus_Draco

It's hard to judge if True North should have a lower CD. As a melee main sure I would have a bias opinion and say it should be lower than 150 seconds, BUUUT part of the challenge is figuring out creative ways in nailing those positionals, like during Omega's Star/Larboard, where a little bit of the rear is exposed for rear procs.

While it does suck to be forced into situations where we can't do positionals, I think it helps balance out the numbers to where the devs want folks to clear. It pushes folks to go for high skill plays, for lack of a better term.

True North is a blessing for melee, but other jobs see it as the end all problem solver. BLM gets special treatment to keep it still as possible, melees ask for adjustments and everyone is >;C

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I concur it helps you "dance" more efficiently and sometimes see through mechanics faster than others cause you need to see the exact limit of that safe spot. But I'm a beginner and only doing Savage in melee to help a team, so kill level DPS is expected and it can be a mess with positionnals as a monk (while they're straightforward in every other aspect and I know them on caster / tank / healer)

As for O11S I was more thinking of when you have to go to a corner, or Panto 2, or a Range / healer dead set on not granting you a SE or SW place for flamethrower because "True North exists duh" yeh so does my foot in your ass ;D

For this ability not to be trash it needs double the duration and half the Cooldown.

My piece of advice about positionals is: don't think of it as missed positionals = gimped DPS. Think of it as correct positionals=bonus damage. This is especially true when you start raiding savage and there are mechanics that force you into positions where its impossible to hit rear/side (like Midgardsrmr's Ahk Morns, or Omega's Larboard/Starboard cannons). Sometimes it's impractical or impossible to hit your positionals, but SE has narrowed the gap between a correct positional and a failed positional such that it's usually only a 20-30 potency gap instead of 100+. Yes, you still want to try to hit positionals to maximize DPS but fights are also tuned that you can clear without hitting positionals.

I see it as bonus rather than a necessity. If it were "necessary" as opposed to "bonus", SE would time the mechanics in raids that require you to stand in front of the boss with melees' True North cooldowns. But, that isn't the case, as anyone who has done raided can tell you, there are phases and mechanics where you can't get to the flank or rear.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

My piece of advice about positionals is: don't think of it as missed positionals = gimped DPS. Think of it as correct positionals=bonus damage. This is especially true when you start raiding savage and there are mechanics that force you into positions where its impossible to hit rear/side (like Midgardsrmr's Ahk Morns, or Omega's Larboard/Starboard cannons). Sometimes it's impractical or impossible to hit your positionals, but SE has narrowed the gap between a correct positional and a failed positional such that it's usually only a 20-30 potency gap instead of 100+. Yes, you still want to try to hit positionals to maximize DPS but fights are also tuned that you can clear without hitting positionals.

I see it as bonus rather than a necessity. If it were "necessary" as opposed to "bonus", SE would time the mechanics in raids that require you to stand in front of the boss with melees' True North cooldowns. But, that isn't the case, as anyone who has done raided can tell you, there are phases and mechanics where you can't get to the flank or rear.

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This is true until you consider Samurai.
Its positionals generate Kenki, which equate to more DPS than any other melee, in addition to affecting their rotation and manouverability.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I see it as bonus rather than a necessity. If it were "necessary" as opposed to "bonus", SE would time the mechanics in raids that require you to stand in front of the boss with melees' True North cooldowns. But, that isn't the case, as anyone who has done raided can tell you, there are phases and mechanics where you can't get to the flank or rear.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

This is true until you consider Samurai.
Its positionals generate Kenki, which equate to more DPS than any other melee, in addition to affecting their rotation and manouverability.

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Not to mention us ninjas where not hitting the trick positional is most certainly a massive dps loss, but to address Johnny, with fights being scripted true north usage is also planned.
Yes there are times when you can't hit positionals properly, and that dps is sacrificed for mechanics, but there are also times during rotations when they must be hit and that's when you should plan your TN usage. A dps loss is still a loss even if it is necessary for survivability.

If you have a proper tank, then True North isn't as needed as people seem to think. I use it mostly during scripted events or during the rare occassion a badly positioned AoE forces me to move out of the proper position.

What it really comes down to is making sure your tank is positioning the boss properly so you can hit those positionals. Nothing sucks worse as a nInja than setting up Trick Attack and having the tank suddenly turn the mob, costing the group 10% extra damage.

But for the most part True North really isn't needed in an emergency if you know your mechanics, position yourself properly in-between global cooldowns and make sure your tank is doing what they're supposed to.

I wouldn't be opposed to a cooldown reduction, but it's never been a huge deal. I've never had people yelling at me to use True North.

For as much as mechanics require the boss to face the party, spin around constantly or force you from your preferred spot, they really don't give this skill enough justice. I can only assume it's because not all melee truly benefit from this, melee positional requirements have only gotten easier (except for Monk for whatever reason) so it may not even be a concern of thiers.

They should remove the kenki positional from SAM and make it always generate Kenki. This similar to how DRG used to only get the Heavy Thrust bonus if used from the flank.

It definitely needs the CD reduced. Probably to 90 secs to be honest. TN for me is a substitute ogcd to weave, so I would prefer not use it at all.

i'd like TN to be reduced to 60 secs for a reason different to most i'd like to see more bosses force weird positions more often to try and make a fight more dynamic imagine if omega during FIRE EVERYTHING! to spin around with mt till lasers or a boss that periodically could flip it's hitbox around while doing tankbusters such a change to boss designs where the boss is held a specific way would require TN to have smaller cd or melees have to get buffs to compansate and adjusting 1 ability is easier than that

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Originally Posted by Syrus_Draco

This is mostly a rant, but I hate how people always tell melees "JUST USE TRUE NORTH YA DINGUS" as if it's the answer to every positional problem.

Yeah True North is amazing for allow positional procs where we are forced into situations where we cannot get our positionals, which happens a lot! Everyone seems to think it's on a 15 second CD and it's always available, and if not use it whenever melee ask for an adjustment.

Folks don't realize 1) 150 sec CD 2) Melees plan out specific spots when to use TN during the fight. Being such a long CD we have limited uses of it during the fight.

To be clear, I'm upset at True North, I'm just upset that tanks/mages always yell at melee to use True North for every mechanic, as if we weren't using it already to optimized our positional procs.

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Who doesn't love these tanks? For many tanks you would need TN without any cooldown or get rid of positionals completly. :rolleyes:

https://media.giphy.com/media/6jO349v4edkLm/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

They should remove the kenki positional from SAM and make it always generate Kenki. This similar to how DRG used to only get the Heavy Thrust bonus if used from the flank.

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It does still generate kenki if you miss a positional. It's just reduced to 5 instead of 10. The amount lost is equal to 1/5th of a Shinten, which is 60 potency, so it's about in line to what other jobs lose with missed positionals.

I agree with others about reduce True North’s cooldown.
That’s why we need to plan ahead which part of the fight we should use the skill.

To be honest, I don't feel reducing True North will help as much as making positionals easier to land in the first place for the classes that have it the worst, which is mostly MNK with DRG being second. NIN & SAM both have ample time between each positional and and can adapt their rotation to compensate for a fight.

That said, reducing it to 2 minutes would align it with every other TA at least, which I think would be fine. Shooting for anything below 90s would make me question why anyone would decide on that instead of asking why their class has positionals at all in the first place.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I feel like True North should have a lower cooldown.

Melee don't even have any tangible benefits over ranged to compensate for needing to account for positionals.

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Agreed. Between the awkward positioning many fights this tier enforce and the sheer downtime, melee get especially screwed. If they did significantly higher damage, that would be one thing but currently DRG and NIN are the lowest. I think 80-90 seconds would be much better. Even 120 would be alright as mechanics tend to have two minute intervals. At least those where you'd need to potentially lose positionals.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

My piece of advice about positionals is: don't think of it as missed positionals = gimped DPS. Think of it as correct positionals=bonus damage. This is especially true when you start raiding savage and there are mechanics that force you into positions where its impossible to hit rear/side (like Midgardsrmr's Ahk Morns, or Omega's Larboard/Starboard cannons). Sometimes it's impractical or impossible to hit your positionals, but SE has narrowed the gap between a correct positional and a failed positional such that it's usually only a 20-30 potency gap instead of 100+. Yes, you still want to try to hit positionals to maximize DPS but fights are also tuned that you can clear without hitting positionals.

I see it as bonus rather than a necessity. If it were "necessary" as opposed to "bonus", SE would time the mechanics in raids that require you to stand in front of the boss with melees' True North cooldowns. But, that isn't the case, as anyone who has done raided can tell you, there are phases and mechanics where you can't get to the flank or rear.

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Those numbers add up over time though. 40 potency may not seem like much but 200 is essentially dropping Impulse Drive. Furthermore, melee are already punished by mechanics that force disengagement. O10S and O12S are particularly bad as melee DPS can be completed screwed both in positionals and uptime with minimal ways to compensate. Range and Casters don't suffer either problem while doing more damage than half the melee. As noted above, NIN and DRG are the two weakest jobs right now.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy finding creative ways to sneak in my positionals. But there are numerous points this tier where you're just going to lose damage and can't do anything about it.

And it is fixed in 4.5

90 seconds is indeed short enough to avoid all of the moments in Omega savage where you might be forced to ignore positionals (Pantokrator in OS11 and Hello World in OS12 are the main ones that come to mind).